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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
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Re: Starting point of a (my) philosophy. [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5500316 - 04/10/06 03:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Ah yes, predetermined to be free, that sounds better...or freedom embedded in predeterminism, I like that :wink:
Like the guitar strings are determined, and its your freedom to play :wink:
But I think, he says, even our play is determined :shrug:
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineXanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: Starting point of a (my) philosophy. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5500773 - 04/10/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Everyone is somewhat off the hook, in the grand scheme of things. (You're right about not being able to take anything personally. I've not been truly angry for years, beyond the few-minute flashes that are automatic.)

Ask any other questions you want. Answering question is a great way to stretch oneself. I posted this to be tested.

Got it right, BlueCoyote, that even our play is determined. It's just the expression of the music on the sheet, which was given to everyone/thing during the construction of the concert hall.

Hehe, why excuse hate and not excuse love ? Only for utilitarianism ? Utilitarianism will blow the 'weak' (unproductive, cost intensive) away, I think, so the concept of love could be quite hindering

Rephrase that maybe?

If you're interested, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Wikipedia is my god.


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: Starting point of a (my) philosophy. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5501069 - 04/10/06 07:44 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
so the concept of love could be quite hindering :grin:




I doubt it. The concept of love, when employed by a mind free of attachment, is quite the formidable force. I have yet to find a weakness of love.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Starting point of a (my) philosophy. [Re: Xanthas]
    #5503019 - 04/11/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I like to be questioned, too, because I often am so short in trying to explain the 'essence' :wink:

Quote:

Xanthas said:
Got it right, BlueCoyote, that even our play is determined. It's just the expression of the music on the sheet, which was given to everyone/thing during the construction of the concert hall.



and what would you think of improvisation, where the preset context and your creativity will mix ?

Quote:

Hehe, why excuse hate and not excuse love ? Only for utilitarianism ? Utilitarianism will blow the 'weak' (unproductive, cost intensive) away, I think, so the concept of love could be quite hindering

Rephrase that maybe?



Yes. In the present western economic society, love is often seen to be hindering in making personal career. You will be too weak for the market, or inside a hierarchic structured company or organization. They make their profits from one quarter to the next and use their profit as mean of power.
This old old pattern runs until now in most of the big businesses or governments.
I am in favor of love too, very much, indeed, but, in an extreme, selecting private goals, there is sometimes need to jump over some love of yourself and love for other. Even this achievement has a foul taste, it will work, until now.
I try to work with love too, but these goals are long-term, and it is extremely heavy to persist in the frosting outer world, as long as 'their' concept works :wink:
It needs enormous duration and effort to melt that icy power dome. And 'they' will battle it, where ever they can with their subtle means. One only can counter with substance. The efforts, which were done so far, are not enough. And one needs his free will, to break through their 'machine' of means and power [utilized determinism], else one will been blown away.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineXanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: Starting point of a (my) philosophy. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5504329 - 04/11/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm done with the analogy, if you don't mind. It's more confusing then the concept, and I think I misworded it earlier.

What I'm saying is that even one's brilliant streaks are manifestations of a physical reality which is determined by physical laws, of which humans are part of. Thus, the interplay between a human being and his/her surroundings is determined from that humans mind, which is further based upon the brain, back and back until the first instant of the universe.

I disagree with most of the second half of your post.

Firstly, "the system" does not draw its power from determinism in any way, and could not without omniscience.

Secondly, utilitarianism is about maximizing the good (being happy) and minimizing the bad (pain/being unhappy). If getting ahead in a career by stepping over others really makes one happy, and it's not just a pathological itch that must be scratched, then it's in accordance with utilitarianism only if the utility gained from such is greater then the collective BS you put people though minus how much less happy you'd be if you got there without stepping on people.

Put simply, I get more out of not being a cold heartless bastard then from being one, thus, it's in accordance with utilitarianism to love others.


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


Edited by Xanthas (04/11/06 04:37 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Starting point of a (my) philosophy. [Re: Xanthas]
    #5511073 - 04/13/06 03:29 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I offered that for explanation of the 'classical' matter head, who is both, predeterministic and utilitarianistic and who sits in the leading chairs of our economy and politic. It is very easy to loose love and compassion in these positions and this strengthened world-view.
If you can hold it, don't loose it.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineRedNucleus
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 4,103
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Re: Starting point of a (my) philosophy. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5512329 - 04/13/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I wrote out why I thought your reasoning was too simplistic, but I deleted it. Well done. You have convinced me that free will does not exist. Instead, the brain weighs choices based on stored knowledge, and chooses what it thinks is best based on whatever information rises to consciousness and subconsciousness. For example, my brain is faced with a decision: Study or Shroomery? A process occurs and the brain decides that studying can be sufficiently completed at a later time. In that case, since more pleasure is derived from Shroomery, it is the choice. It is a mechanical operation in every way.

"p3. The universe is able to be understood by human intelligences."

I think your wording is too vague. "The universe" contains much that cannot ever be observed. More importantly, if there is anything about the universe that absolutely cannot be understood by humans, it is possible that no human is aware of this fact. If the limit of our intelligence is unknown, it is simple to assume that our ability to intelligently understand is limitless.


--------------------
Namaste


Edited by RedNukleus (04/13/06 01:55 PM)


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