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 spud
I'm so fly.
Registered: 10/07/02
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 Should psychology replace philosophy... 
#6828665 - 04/24/07 06:28 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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when it comes to epistemology? Quine believed that the questions of epistemology can be fulfilled simply by providing an explanation of the actual mental processes that results in people coming to have the beliefs we call knowledge. Thus, Quine holds that epistemology should be considered a subset of psychology, not philosophy. It is generally believed that psychology is able tell us how a person’s experience creates their beliefs, at least in theory. Thus, is it not reasonable to conclude that psychology could tell us how experience leads to knowledge in particular?
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 joeythecatch
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: spud]
#6829399 - 04/24/07 09:13 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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For starters, what do you consider to be "the question of epistemology"? If, by that, you just mean the question of how beliefs are formed, then yes, psychology is likely far better equipped than philosophy to settle the matter. But epistemology is concerned with much more than the question of belief formation. If I were to point to a single question that I would identify as the question of epistemology, rather than belief formation, I'd point to the question of what are the necessary and sufficient conditions for knowledge. It's not clear to me what light psychology could shed on Gettier cases, for example.
Quine's view, if I read him correctly, is that matters such as justification are simply a lost cause, and since we're not going to make any headway on those matters, then the best we can do is to give an account of knowledge (though I admit it's not clear to me what knowledge actually is on Quine's account) in terms as uncontroversial as possible (i.e., purely naturalistic ones). For what it's worth I find Quine's position unsatisfying because it seems to me that he sidesteps the big questions of epistemology rather than actually tackling them, and frankly I just don't see those questions going away as easily as Quine apparently thinks they will. But perhaps I'm missing something from Quine's view. What say you; am I representing his view correctly as far as you can tell?
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: joeythecatch]
#6830044 - 04/24/07 11:39 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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epistemology: the study or a theory of the nature and grounds of knowledge especially with reference to its limits and validity
seems to me that epistemology would encompass both philosophy and psychology, rather than one of the latter two encompassing the former.
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NiamhNyx
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: joeythecatch]
#6830079 - 04/24/07 11:47 PM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Nah. Psychology may be a useful element when considering epistemology, but it would never be enough on its own. What about sociological, historical or theological perspectives?
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: NiamhNyx]
#6830544 - 04/25/07 02:07 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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I hate to say this, considering I'm a phil major, but neuroscience should replace both. As far as spirituality is concerned, I'm pretty much an agnostic, and always, in some sense, "chasing the magic", I call it. Hence the interest in psychoactive mushrooms. But in practical terms, I'm a mechanist. I have to operate on the assumption that there's nothing special or magical going on in the brain, and so if you want to understand knowledge and thought totally, you have to understand the machine that makes them happen. This basically invalidates the hell out of a lot of psychology and philosophy, but it's the only conclusion I've been able to come too.
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SneezingPenis
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: crumblebum]
#6830661 - 04/25/07 03:44 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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you believe the brain is the creator of thought?
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crumblebum
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: SneezingPenis]
#6830701 - 04/25/07 04:31 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yeah. I do. Do you have any evidence that anything else is? It's the organ within the human body most probably capable, and any mechanical analysis of the body points to it.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: crumblebum]
#6830707 - 04/25/07 04:37 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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What do you say about genetics?
Genes have been proved to have an influence on our actions and thoughts.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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crumblebum
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6830738 - 04/25/07 04:59 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Genetics play a strong role in neuroscience, people are predisposed to mental illness, which is in turn caused by chemical imbalance (or trauma, maybe, but trauma still seems to trigger the same kind of chemical imbalance).But all in all, genetics are still the same kind of nonspecial mechanics that make up all life, and they're still basically the same mechanics governed by physics. I hate having to argue in favor of determinism, but unless you want to try and prove some kind of soul or other cartesian dualism or something, the brain is a machine that will spit out the same response to the same stimulus every time. It's a very, very complicated mechanism that is affected by the stimulus so as to make it's next response different, so rather I should say, the SAME brain will yield the same response to the same stimulus every time. When people ask me, if I could go back in my life and do something differently, what would I do, I tell them I couldn't. My brain did the only thing it could.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: crumblebum]
#6830787 - 04/25/07 05:36 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Oh the same ole debate about the existence of a soul...
While there's no scientific certainty about the existence of a soul, there are enough proves to point in that direction.
Consciousness of humans is basically the same as any other.
Whilst the difference relates to the fact that humans have managed to expand it in such a manner the they can manipulate the environment better then other beings.
Consciousness impose energy, transformation & awareness.
A thing that has always made me think about the implications of awareness is the fact that sometimes we seem to be able to transmute it, to "tune" it to different frequencies. Another thing that has always been on my mind was the fact that from some medical reports there are patients who can "feel" pain on their amputated limbs. How can that be?
What other medical reports show is that some patients who suffered transplant seem to "borrow" feelings, characteristics from the person they got their organ. It's like information stores somewhere deep inside all of our fibers and cells.
That's what I perceive as being a part of that consciousness, and it looks like it "knows" the physical body too.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6830807 - 04/25/07 05:48 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
While there's no scientific certainty about the existence of a soul, there are enough proves to point in that direction.
I'm sorry... I have basically... no idea what you're saying there. What are "proves" and how do they point to the existence of soul?
Quote:
Another thing that has always been on my mind was the fact that from some medical reports there are patients who can "feel" pain on their amputated limbs. How can that be?
Phantom Limb Syndrom, or phantom limb pain, or whatever, is largely accepted as just a neurological fuckup. The brain keeps track of where all the limbs are and what they are doing, and it dosen't immediately register that a limb or other chunk of the body is gone, and so it tells a person that they're feeling pain there. Remember how pain works. A signal goes from the limb to the brain, and not the other way around. It's the brain that really processes and "feels" pain, and not actually the limb itself. There have people people who have felt pain outside of their heads, or outside of there hands. People have felt halos of sensation around limbs. Most of the time, this is the result of brain damage.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: crumblebum]
#6830855 - 04/25/07 06:26 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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My question for you is: can science explain everything?
Foe me the concept of the souls is pretty abstract and we can encounter difficulties and confusion if we try to think about it with our analytic mind.
If science is unable (at least until now) to find the right methods to prove the existence of the soul, does that mean the soul doesn't exist?
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6830893 - 04/25/07 06:51 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Thats the wonderful thing about the proper application of science! You can prove that things DO exist, but you can never prove that things DON'T exist! Which is really the only thing that keeps me from leaping off a cliff in a fit of existentialist melodrama. But what science can do is show inductively that it's very, very unlikely that something exists. We claim that something exists in the first place because we can see evidence of it. If we see fresh hoof prints in the dirt, we can assume that horses are nearby. But if we then see a man holding a hoof shaped stamp and snickering at us, it becomes less likely that horses are nearby. And if that same man walks up to us and says, "Hey dumbass, did you like all those hoof prints I made to fool you?" then it becomes EVEN less likely that there are horses about.
The same thing goes for the soul. We first believed the soul existed for a few reasons. We thought it was the source of emotions. We needed an explaination for life in general. Those are the evidence based reasons. The less dignifying reason is that no one wants to think that when they die the world will go black and their corpse will decay into nothingness. Unfortunately, not wanting to think something dosent make it so. And unfortunately, we have observable reasons for the other evidence that we'd attributed to the soul. Life is a series of chemical reactions, many of which we understand. Emotions are chemicals in the brain moving from glands to receptors. And when you're given two explainations for a phenomenon, one explaination that you can see and study, and the other which is invisible, the logical and resonable thing to do is to assume that the cause is the one you can see and study.
This dosen't totally rule out the existence of the soul, but if all of the effects that we used to attribute to the soul can now be attributed to other things, it makes it very, very unlikely. To hijack a theme from another board, assuming the existence of the soul is perhaps a very old habit that we should grow out of.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6830902 - 04/25/07 06:58 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
A thing that has always made me think about the implications of awareness is the fact that sometimes we seem to be able to transmute it, to "tune" it to different frequencies.
Yes, we are capable of becoming more aware, aware to a greater degree. In doing so, we understand the nature of awareness more.
Quote:
Another thing that has always been on my mind was the fact that from some medical reports there are patients who can "feel" pain on their amputated limbs. How can that be?
It might be possible that nerves in the area send signals to the brain, and perhaps the brain interprets that signal as though it were coming from locations where the arm used to be... Its hard to say, but I'm not necessarily sure that it means their is a "soul arm" that is still there.
Quote:
What other medical reports show is that some patients who suffered transplant seem to "borrow" feelings, characteristics from the person they got their organ. It's like information stores somewhere deep inside all of our fibers and cells.
Really? 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
 
 
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: crumblebum]
#6830906 - 04/25/07 07:02 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
This dosen't totally rule out the existence of the soul, but if all of the effects that we used to attribute to the soul can now be attributed to other things, it makes it very, very unlikely. To hijack a theme from another board, assuming the existence of the soul is perhaps a very old habit that we should grow out of.
I don't say it's a habit (at least from my perspective). It's something that could exist or something that maybe later on will be proved like not existing.
On the other hand, the history of science had some dramatic twists so what once was a proven fact later on was declined through finding new evidence.
In my opinion, it's something we should keep our minds open & from time to time listen to our perception.
After all, we live our lives based on our perceptions and as long as we can make a balance this is a good path ad long as we don't try to impose our point of view to others.
Trying to grow out of the idea that there might be a soul will be in that case exactly the thing that could turn into a habit 
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: fireworks_god]
#6830915 - 04/25/07 07:10 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
What other medical reports show is that some patients who suffered transplant seem to "borrow" feelings, characteristics from the person they got their organ. It's like information stores somewhere deep inside all of our fibers and cells.
Really?
Yes, I saw this documentary on Discovery Channel about an year ago in which patients which suffered heart transplant changed their behaviour.
There was this woman who found a sudden interest in karate. She went searching for the family who's son killed himself and who's heart she got. That way she found out their son was a karate trainer.
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All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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rubixcubies
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: spud]
#6830917 - 04/25/07 07:10 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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psychology and philosophy should become one, on the other hand i mauy be jsut misunderstanding philosophy and psychology but to me psychology seems to be the decoding of ones life exeperience and how it has formed you. and philosophy seems like speculation as to why ones experience will form ones beliefs sorta. mostly i undertsnad things as evolutionary mechanisms. but thats sorta psychology i guess?
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fireworks_god
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6830921 - 04/25/07 07:12 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
Yes, I saw this documentary on Discovery Channel about an year ago in which patients which suffered heart transplant changed their behaviour.
There was this woman who found a sudden interest in karate. She went searching for the family who's son killed himself and who's heart she got. That way she found out their son was a karate trainer.
Cool. 
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: rubixcubies]
#6830922 - 04/25/07 07:12 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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Psychology derived from philosophy... now you think they should reunite like long lost relatives? 
--------------------
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
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rubixcubies
porch monkey ferlyfe
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Re: Should psychology replace philosophy... [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6830931 - 04/25/07 07:18 AM (16 years, 11 months ago) |
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why not? i think best using logic and imagination. and you can see more when you look from 2 perspectives
mostly i use psychology but when i think about psychology i also think about how things would be for animals. and how these thigns would be useful for survival in nature.
recently i determined that the eating disorder with eating when your stressed is not entirely undesired because when youre stressed obviously times are tough. in nature that generally means eat as much as you can whenever you can and being stressed is a hugh calorie endeavor. and pain is your bodys way of making sure you are careful with your injurie so it can heal. depression is a catalyst calling for change in environs conditions... so on i got lots of theorys. but mostly psychology nowadays seems focused on neurotic behaviour (which is what i call things that are ego based not instinct).
Edited by rubixcubies (04/25/07 07:26 AM)
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