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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: Freedom]
    #29661308 -

I think the gap to understanding awareness has collected too many terms, and is therefore widening because the key term awareness is slipping away from awareness before we describe it to each other.
In my case I accept a temporal gap, and I accept a verbal insufficiency, yet I am aware of awareness as part of the ongoing familiarity process which continues except in dreamless sleep.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: redgreenvines]
    #29661314 -

call it experience, awareness, or qualia the essence of it is that anything appears at all.

I don't mean a temporal gap as i see none, even if the brain cycles, time and the motion of molecules doesn't stop anywhere

I mean the gap between the mechanism of the brain and the appearance of an experience

its similar to the question of what's before the big bang and what caused it if anything. Seems to me there is a gap there where we just don't know

Edited by Freedom (09/04/26 11:17 AM)

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: Freedom]
    #29661325 -

the brain is continuously connected to all parts of the experience including your disposition which is derived from your familiarity to some parts of the experience.

as such awareness is not separate from experiencing.

unlike the big bang this is happening here and now continuously and not stopping even while you take selfies.

the big bang, however, is most likely not continuous, nor as directly realize-able.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: redgreenvines]
    #29661344 -

call the mechanism whatever you want, describe it any way

call the experience whatever you want, describe it any way

the gap is between those two, whatever you call them and however you describe them




Edited by Freedom (09/04/26 12:08 PM)

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: Freedom]
    #29661358 -

that way might be comfortable.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: redgreenvines]
    #29661362 -

what do you think I'm trying to point to, how would you put it in your own words?

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: Freedom]
    #29661371 -

I already did do that, using several different ways of accessing and describing the same organic interactive memory presence thing, but it is not connecting for you at this time, no need to force it.

set and setting rules.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #29661470 -

Rahz said:
I said "doesn't seem" rather than "cannot."

I'm open to the possibility that a complete evolutionary/organizational account could contain an answer, so I don't think we disagree much.

But there is presently an explanatory gap, with no clear account of how evolutionary or organizational facts would entail phenomenal experience. That's why it's called hard. It would also be presumptive to assume in advance that the gap must be scientifically solvable, even if that seems intuitive.

But, that kind of intuition is sometimes what drives discovery so if that's your position I have no reason to be overly critical of it.


I think we largely agree that a complete evolutionary and organisational account, meaning the complete resolution of the soft questions, could contain the answer. The remaining difference is that you regard the present explanatory gap as sufficient to retain a hard problem, while withholding confidence that the gap will close. I regard it as an open set of evolutionary and organisational questions whose answers have not yet been developed.

I am not assuming in advance that the answer has already been found, or that it will be simple. But if experience is a natural feature of evolved organisms, I am not sure what it would mean for its how and why to be non-scientifically solvable. Philosophy can clarify concepts and expose assumptions, while the answer itself may require better concepts, mechanisms and methods. But I do not see why that places it outside scientific investigation.

A question may turn out to be conceptual rather than empirical, or badly framed. But that would not make it a hard natural problem awaiting a non-scientific answer. It would mean we had imposed a mistaken demand on the question.

That is why I think the way we describe mechanism and experience matters. It is not a matter of relabelling the same problem, but of whether our descriptions pre-specify two independently given sides and then require an explanation of how they connect.

When you ask how evolutionary and organisational facts would entail phenomenal experience, I also do not think the answer need entail experience from an independently non-experiential description. That treats experience as something required to follow from a description in which it has already been excluded. The apparent gap may partly arise because mechanism is described externally, as a set of operations, while experience is described as the organism’s lived participation. If those are treated as independently given sides, a bridge will always be demanded between them. A complete account may instead show how they belong to one evolved organisation, properly described at different levels.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: Freedom]
    #29661506 -

What gaps?

There are no Gaps.

Unless you're meaning the term in some dual way which differentionates functional distinctions.

That's fine for work and for being technical and for other things. But its a load of malarky ultimately. The O.G. is the everywhereness to the here-&-now and it's O.G. and beyond time.  But we've got a funky genome so I'll give anyone infinite passes for wanting to think otherwise.  Otherwise...zip.  Life's done before over before we realize it and have no idea what's happening if anything whatsoever at all before recycling into the same as our ancestors, the Earth.  They/it feed us, cloth us, protect us, nourish us each day.  The sun helps, the planet turns away, then we get some shut eye with the starlight coming in from far far away (seemingly - that a gap too, ey? seemingly from a human perspective, but human beings can change their persepctivem shift them back and forth, and roll into other little niche areas before coming back to homeostasis and it isn't all about drugs or even psychs at that either.  Nice but yeah, not always as nice as just...not.

I'm being vague here but the argument I'm seeing is two people accidentally talking to one another and some simple miss-takes occurring.

As for the argument. It isn't even really one. I've heard you both (watched anyway) post a bit, and, i think now, whatever's up is a bit like taking the map (model) for the land, and, also, not taking the map for the land! because in before it was a map? and after its a map...even whilst it's a 'map' - where's all the good stuff making it up actually come from anyways, anyhow? Exaclty.

Ever see someone try to walk on a map of the land they want to go to and then get stuck there and ask for help? Think maybe something like that happened near to me once. Needless to say.., Not cool.


Interbeing is the way. Just saying.  Idc about borring terms of who gets the right I just want this shit show of phoney malarky to knock it off before I gotta go run my big mouth because Poncho got his family murdered for not looking the right way or something less villenous and tragically ignorant than such an example.  There's our world, Earth, though.  And yeah, it's all that banger still big banging. Too bad everyone is a pussy. I get it though. I've seen my logs alone.  Ha.

There is, you could say what exists is not just in a state of interdependence to that of what's here-&-now (which is everywhereness - a continuum right, and, i've been watching it all my life; beyond a doubt that's correct-enoughhhh...but w/e - i might be wrong.)

Now, ok, not that anyone is saying this but.
Does anybody? Does anything? Genuinely.  If we put a gun to someone's head? If you took that gun away and then chilled. Ez. People are nutty because in the states because they're scared, being cheated, and know it full well. Well, that takes nothing away from the truth, more power to anybody who can get there ish together well enough to do something genuine to help in a way that impacts sucha  thing now or own the lines from here...which is just...now, but other *points a little ahead of where the Earth is currently already headed anyways*

Religion & Science don't need to be at odds either. But, the lying about the basics won't do in the long term. Reconciliation would be a major confrontation and that's happening even now.  More on a person level between people and themselves I think.  But wut do i kno.

Things are beyond cooler than cooler as is, but, nothing but. Things are beyond cool. And we've got all we n eed if we steer the ship like not drunken bafoons turned full idiots whilst at the wheel AND playing the 'Make a Get Away with America' (left of it) game or...insert w/e example you'd wish to here...'needn't stop with the two as they're like a single artist's work inspiring each one of his eyes to only enjoy certain aspects of the work they made or enjoy and that the other eye can only enjoy certain aspects etc.

The (omni-co-trans<in>formational) play emergent from energy - mass - space.
Space is the Omniall meeting itself in the midst the of its omnipresence-omnipresent-omnipotent-omnicyclical godmind or what-have-you ( the universe experiencing itself )

When looked at as such, that is, as things genuinely are, it isn't a hallucination at all in the classical sense - its the interbeing of all things together - its juist warping perception of space-time-mind to get a real look at what's up with the true nature of things.  Which isn't something anybody really needs to 'say' I guess. Its just fun for now because we as a species seem really far behind?!  Well, maybe that's just lag -- soon about to zip us in the behinds if we aren't careful!  Ha.

Some people might not like the absolute reality and the relative field we experience as interbeing one in the same only frame a touch differently based upon everything in the cosmos - that's the game/life. 

That's just silly. Indra's Web - that's got it all. 
Maybe some we can experience the timeless of space can be observed  * it can * .

Observer and observer is foolish anyhow.
Made up words are fun.  Especialyl when they work.  Regular life gets you where?  Not a place I dig all too much. I can't IMAGINE how others must feel. I fucking hate the present day system and could throw right into the sun without batting an eye. But I would ask everyone 10,000 times befeore doing so if they wanted to stay with it or leave, for ex.  Therbey sealing my own fate....surely, lmao.'

Experience is filtered on Earth idk all of why, but it is. The easy to infer and deduce aspects of that are plain to see and have been since most grew up I imagine. Due to where we're situated in the Milky way, in the STar System we're skadoodling about with - n that ...still-flowing vibe or flowing-stillness.w/e... being relative to absolutely everywhere that anything is, which, is everywhere - a continuous self-reference state of interbecoming and uninterbecoming, yo.

If the Flowing-Stillness catches a little mirror and takes a peep, what's good? How have mind become so mislead (jping its obvi!!!!!!!) Look at the reflection's we'd see when we aren't caught in anything but the shared unitary manifold of existence - ( we are, can;'t be help, so being ' caught anywhere ' should result is much the same reflection albeit differential An unborn undying ever present self transforming omnicosmosaical reality interbeing us all; that is our shared nature. This is every thing in & as its true nature thanks to everything supporting all things in the intercoexistence of what's also at once part of a unitary manifolded existence due to said existence all sharig the same nature, the same source, that everything, even the continuum itself is all completely and utterly interdependent A N D intraenmeshed from the bottomless floor all the way to where we can't we see if we turn our eyeballs that direction and do our darnedest without any-outside help, ya?

Just because awareness and consciousness came about "later" doesn't really mean much except for a very rigid sort of a view in which things like first place matter so much in the way of 'views' that aren't about building a car, fixing a machine, performing surgery, and so forth.  Even then there's some space to work with since it really all does just all inter/intra-depend from the endless beginning  *still now, rit?* to the beginningless end * still now.

Do so would be like saying it doesn't matter if a comment which landed upon Earth with aliens that came out the core with a time machine doesn't affect anything. Because "rules".  Naaaa. I duuuuno.

# sum1n fite me.


oh right the big bang is happening now.

technically it never stopped - it just looks like it might've, but we're still exploding around before becoming shaldoopled back all the way in.  Luckily we'll be long gone from our current forms and ID and memory likes won't linger in another that survives that sort of a thing, so its a silly thing to worry about - for way more reasons than I just listed, but still, those one's too.

But...the big bang...it IS continuously happening. WE aren't even having this discussion unless it is still happening.  Saying the Cosmos is breathing is just a poetic take on it. IDk what it is doing.  *Probably evolving into a higher lifeform or just napping and dreaming things up - in a way that isnt either of what I just alluded to, but that isn't that point really.

None of this stuff is mutually exclusive in the grand scheme yall. Not the non *pretend aspects anyways.  For that one guy's sake. C'mon. Cant be hard to see how its.  We're being it. Its being us. 

Pick the words apart if you want - most aren't so privileged as to be able to fart around but such things.  We've got it good imo&e.  Even when it utterly sux, still not bad all things considered to past generations. Each notch back was a touch nuttier.  Not all but many.  Me, I'm the same. :oldman:

and y Yes i am the dirnk.  its been a couple years and i cant feel my hands ffrom nerve pain so nbd. i do wut i do.

i poop in ur gap.


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Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #29661527 -

well well well, apologies gents. now i see this <->:give remaining beer to a bubba, tis not for me:<-> is not the way to be either.  :takingnotes:
Carry on.
:nowords:
:leaving:


--------------------
Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #29661571 -

a long time ago i saw the gap in the map, dropped and was astonished

i still wonder and think about maps, i don't think their evil, can even help sometimes

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: sudly]
    #29661573 -

Quote:
I think we largely agree that a complete evolutionary and organisational account, meaning the complete resolution of the soft questions, could contain the answer. The remaining difference is that you regard the present explanatory gap as sufficient to retain a hard problem, while withholding confidence that the gap will close. I regard it as an open set of evolutionary and organisational questions whose answers have not yet been developed.


Perhaps that scientific gap will be filled softly, and I like your idea about different levels. Perhaps the scientific gap is otherwise complete, meaning there's nothing substantial left to understand scientifically, and some people don't see it, as red suggests.

But on another level, we don't need to infer awareness from science because we encounter it directly.

Asking the question of why there is awareness is its own answer. It's an acknowledgment. Asking why reality exists is its own acknowledgment. They are the same question.

There is a potential tension there. It can be like trying to force an existential primitive through an analytical filter. It's generally useful, but at the extremes where we are questioning reality or our own existence, "I don't know" is a good stopgap, but the ideal answer is a simple kind of non-dualistic affirmation.

I bring this up to suggest that as a matter of our general experience there doesn't need to be a gap, while at the same time one can entertain a scientific gap in understanding.

I get what Chalmers is saying. Maybe it's unreasonable to ask science to explain the existence of the reality it already presupposes.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: Rahz]
    #29661589 -

i've gone through this thread with ai and all i can find is the claim that the brain mechanism is awareness, i feel like i'm missing something

i get that corrlation of brain activity to experience fits very well and science could potentially make it fit like a glove

but there is something i don't get. like heat transfer is a property of something, and its identical to the movement of atoms and molecules and ions. we can look at the metal expanding as it heats and say that the expansion and the movement are the same thing. In that case we can say the movment of all the atoms makes the average distance between them larger, so there is no gap in the explanation

but even if we correlate 10 billion changes in a brain to 10 billion subtle ovservations in experience, i still see no explanation of how they are the same. We can describe every step of the way with physics of your cpu ram and gpu making an image on a computer screen. voltage flows through led's using the photvoltaic effect. what effect makes the light our brains create in the visual field?

Edit: ok this might be the best way to phrase the question:

If you weren't human and had different biology and you found a brain and could know everything we do about it, what about it would cause you to believe it could create or have or be an experience?

Edited by Freedom (09/04/26 07:17 PM)

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #29661600 -

great appreciation - thanks - I'll have some of what he's having...


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: Freedom]
    #29661609 -

Even if not human, I think the fact of a brain would confer an information process. I would suspect it could have experience because it reminded me of my own information process, and association with an experience, if whatever non-human intelligent being I was has the intelligence to think along those lines.

As I understand your question, it requires understanding what brains do to some degree but is an inference from one's own awareness rather than a derivation from the brain alone.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: Freedom]
    #29661611 -

Freedom said:
.. what effect makes the light our brains create in the visual field?....



the accuracy is not very good yet with brain stimulation, however, many people have undergone exploratory brain electrostimulation prior to surgery.
these people when stimulated by probes report recollections of incidents and of sensations.
the recollections are vividly real.
this goes for visual spatial and color fields of experience and percception.
the current moment when eyes are open initially hit areas in the occipital lobe (relayed through the LGN of the thalamus)
However, we seldom experience just vision, usually there is body feelings and breathing at least and maybe some chitchat or stuck song on repeat, or how pressed for time we seem to be.
anyway all of that is experienced and remembered together with the view.
its how we are present in our life story.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: Rahz]
    #29661612 -

Rahz said:
Even if not human, I think the fact of a brain would confer an information process. I would suspect it could have experience because it reminded me of my own information process, and association with an experience, if whatever non-human intelligent being I was has the intelligence to think along those lines.

As I understand your question, it requires understanding what brains do to some degree but is an inference from one's own awareness rather than a derivation from the brain alone.



My SSD drive stores info, isn't something else needed for experience?

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: redgreenvines]
    #29661615 -

redgreenvines said:
Freedom said:
.. what effect makes the light our brains create in the visual field?....



the accuracy is not very good yet with brain stimulation, however, many people have undergone exploratory brain electrostimulation prior to surgery.
these people when stimulated by probes report recollections of incidents and of sensations.
the recollections are vividly real.
this goes for visual spatial and color fields of experience and percception.
the current moment when eyes are open initially hit areas in the occipital lobe (relayed through the LGN of the thalamus)
However, we seldom experience just vision, usually there is body feelings and breathing at least and maybe some chitchat or stuck song on repeat, or how pressed for time we seem to be.
anyway all of that is experienced and remembered together with the view.
its how we are present in our life story.



Isn't that just correlation?

we can correlate heat with metal expansion as well. In fact we can correlate it so well as to have a mathematical function describe it. If we only had the correlation, we wouldn't understand the mechanism that creates expansion. That's the gap.

Understanding that heat is kinetic energy, we can explain why the steel expands

we don't have that with brain as far as a know, and there isn't even a plausable theory that i know of

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: Freedom]
    #29661641 -

Freedom said:
Rahz said:
Even if not human, I think the fact of a brain would confer an information process. I would suspect it could have experience because it reminded me of my own information process, and association with an experience, if whatever non-human intelligent being I was has the intelligence to think along those lines.

As I understand your question, it requires understanding what brains do to some degree but is an inference from one's own awareness rather than a derivation from the brain alone.



My SSD drive stores info, isn't something else needed for experience?


Yes, but awareness could still be inferred through similarity. I don't experience your awareness directly. I infer it because you seem sufficiently similar to something I know is aware, my own being.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Philosophies compared [Re: Rahz]
    #29661646 -

that's why i said you weren't human, so you couldn't do that :smile:

you're like some kind of inteligent plasma or something

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