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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Bad Philosophy Is Inconsistent [Re: Silversoul]
#5307095 - 02/16/06 01:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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What you fail to see is that it works just as easily the other way around.
Not quite - not if you accept the axiom that existence exists, and that Existence has Primacy.
Therefore, if it exists, it is ultimately an objective existence because it is part of an objective system of reality.
Objective reality is just as much a part of my subjective perception as my subjective experience is of objective reality.
Objective reality is just as much a part of my objective perception as my objective experience is of objective reality. I don't deny that I have particular experiences - but I recognize that ultimately, it is all part of objective existence.
Reality is contained within perception, while the subject is contained within reality.
If the subject is contained in reality, then why draw the line between the "subject" and reality in the first place? Of course, objectively, there is no line drawn, as reality is one integrated whole. But psychologically speaking, you are creating such a border. Now for practical purposes, I perfectly understand the use of a border for the sake of individual purposes - but ultimately, I can also recognize that objectively, we are all part of the objective system of reality, which is one integrated whole.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment


Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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When subjectivity dissolves, our considerations of also objectivity disolves becuase the two are totally interdependent. Living in the perfected essence of non-duality, one sees that things are neither objective nor subjective as science tells us that nothing exists indepednently, from its own side.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Bad Philosophy Is Inconsistent [Re: Sinbad]
#5307118 - 02/16/06 01:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sinbad said: When subjectivity dissolves, our considerations of also objectivity disolves becuase the two are totally interdependent. Living in the perfected essence of non-duality, one sees that things are neither objective nor subjective as science tells us that nothing exists indepednently, from its own side.
This guy gets it.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Bad Philosophy Is Inconsistent [Re: Silversoul]
#5307126 - 02/16/06 01:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said:
Quote:
Sinbad said: When subjectivity dissolves, our considerations of also objectivity disolves becuase the two are totally interdependent. Living in the perfected essence of non-duality, one sees that things are neither objective nor subjective as science tells us that nothing exists indepednently, from its own side.
This guy gets it.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Bad Philosophy Is Inconsistent [Re: Sinbad]
#5307223 - 02/16/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sinbad said: When subjectivity dissolves, our considerations of also objectivity disolves becuase the two are totally interdependent. Living in the perfected essence of non-duality, one sees that things are neither objective nor subjective as science tells us that nothing exists indepednently, from its own side.
Now we have a Buddhist, even more colorful this discussion has become. 
I'd like to recite a quote from a Taoist book I came across long ago:
Quote:
The only way to confirm this is to remove the barrier of subjectivity that prevents you from realizing your essential oneness with all things.
The context was in reference to god - rather, the Taoist approach to the meaning of god - but that's another topic. Objectivism supports this very oneness in a very real way; that metaphysically speaking, there is only one universe, one reality which is an integrated whole. There are no entirely isolated facts or entities. Existence exists, and every existent exists in some relation or the other, to another existent, and so forth, this is an objective fact. If we are to realize that we, too, are integrated into existence, then we are all part of this objective system of reality. As reality is one integrated whole, this is an objective fact. Facts may be ignored or dismissed by one's individual mind, but this does not alter existence itself.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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But, thank you for illustrating the other kind of inconsistencies that are okay - if that is your whole, entire point, then very well then! 
Yes, that was the over all goal. Thank you for understanding it. 
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In thought, I can roam around wherever the hell I want to. But in action that's another story. If I want to create or utilize a philosophy only dealing with thought - then hell, almost anything goes. However, if I am to do the same but with a philosophy that deals with reality, thought, action, and even politics - the whole entire package - then I must excercise much more caution and responsibility, for the same reason that the engineers of BMW must excercise caution and responsibility in engineering the design of their well-built vehicles - because an egregious error can lead to disasters, and even fatalities.
I have no idea where I ever implied anything to the contrary. I concur with that!
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Strawman. I made no such assumptions nor claims. As however difficult it may be for you to believe, what I wrote was not an ad hominem.
Of course, it has nothing to do with debating the topic. You write stuff having nothing to do with the topic and I'll respond to it non the less though. Stick with the subject matter and you won't get responces like that. 
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I am enjoying the spiciness of this forum and thread - in other words, the colorfulness that results from the varieties of positions and stances. We have our Christian, our Empiricist, our Objectivists, our Mystic, this and that, it's quite stimulating and lively.
Indeed! 
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment


Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Exactly! 
Strange that you should mention this as i just posted a post in the other thread about exactly this kind of way of understanding the concepts of God and Oness.
"The context was in reference to god - rather, the Taoist approach to the meaning of god - but that's another topic. Objectivism supports this very oneness in a very real way; that metaphysically speaking, there is only one universe, one reality which is an integrated whole. There are no entirely isolated facts or entities. Existence exists, and every existent exists in some relation or the other, to another existent, and so forth, this is an objective fact. If we are to realize that we, too, are integrated into existence, then we are all part of this objective system of reality. As reality is one integrated whole, this is an objective fact. Facts may be ignored or dismissed by one's individual mind, but this does not alter existence itself."
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Edited by Sinbad (02/16/06 02:28 PM)
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Bad Philosophy Is Inconsistent [Re: Sinbad]
#5307285 - 02/16/06 02:31 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sinbad said: Exactly! 
Strange that you should mention this as i just posted a post in the other thread about exactly this kind of way of understanding the concepts of God and Oness.
"The context was in reference to god - rather, the Taoist approach to the meaning of god - but that's another topic. Objectivism supports this very oneness in a very real way; that metaphysically speaking, there is only one universe, one reality which is an integrated whole. There are no entirely isolated facts or entities. Existence exists, and every existent exists in some relation or the other, to another existent, and so forth, this is an objective fact. If we are to realize that we, too, are integrated into existence, then we are all part of this objective system of reality. As reality is one integrated whole, this is an objective fact. Facts may be ignored or dismissed by one's individual mind, but this does not alter existence itself."
This guy gets it. 
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Skorpivo: It seems that you and me have different ideas of what "subjective" means(poetic justice, no?). What I mean by subjective is not simply that we percieve things differently, but rather the very fact that we percieve. You say "Existence exists" and I agree, but it is equally true to say "Perception exists," and that neither statement is subordinate to the other. They are both part of a greater, non-dualistic reality which is neither subjective nor objective, but encompasses both.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Bad Philosophy Is Inconsistent [Re: Silversoul]
#5307703 - 02/16/06 04:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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What I mean by subjective is not simply that we percieve things differently, but rather the very fact that we percieve.
If by the very fact that we percieve, you don't mean that we percieve in a conditional [read: human] way, then precisely how do you mean it is subjective? The fact is perception has existence, and because it has existence, it exists objectively, as it is integrated in objective existence.
You say "Existence exists" and I agree, but it is equally true to say "Perception exists," and that neither statement is subordinate to the other.
Indeed, both are equally true, however, existence exists is an irreducible axiom, it is a primary. If we are to acknowledge this axiom, then we must also realize that the same cannot be said of "perception exists".
They are both part of a greater, non-dualistic reality which is neither subjective nor objective, but encompasses both.
If it is non-dualistic, then how can it encompass both dualities? Strictly speaking, nature beyond man's mind encompasses neither subjectivity or objectivity - it just is - that, is non-dualism.
Reality itself only has objectivity in relation to consciousness. There are facts determined by the nature of reality, and to be discovered by man's mind. I cannot ignore the fact that reality is one integrated whole, and that we are all part of an objective existence. Moreover, aside from ego-based needs that are very real, there is no reason to create an objective-subjective dichotomy, which gives rise to the mind-body dichotomy - as Phred pointed out before, Objectivism rejects the mind-body dichotomy, and instead integrates the two into one integrated whole - just like the objective nature of existence.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: You say "Existence exists" and I agree, but it is equally true to say "Perception exists," and that neither statement is subordinate to the other.
Indeed, both are equally true, however, existence exists is an irreducible axiom, it is a primary. If we are to acknowledge this axiom, then we must also realize that the same cannot be said of "perception exists".
False. Existence exists only relation to perception, and likewise, perception exists only in relation to existence. The perciever and percieved together make up reality. They are interdependent, as Sinbad pointed out.
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 18 days
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Re: Bad Philosophy Is Inconsistent [Re: Silversoul]
#5308005 - 02/16/06 05:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Sounds to me you guys are arguing at cross purposes about the same thing.
Existence exists. That is axiomatic and can be readily demonstrated ostensively. Perception also exists, and can be demonstrated through introspection -- "I think, therefore I am".
The point is that perception is an attribute of certain existants -- specifically living entities of a certain threshold complexity. While it is true that existence cannot be perceived absent at least one perceiver, it does not follow that existence would vanish if there were no perceivers operating within it.
It's not a two way street -- while the universe can continue to exist without perceivers, perceivers cannot continue to exist without a universe.
Phred
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Bad Philosophy Is Inconsistent [Re: Phred]
#5308301 - 02/16/06 07:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Exactamente.
The premise precedes the proof.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (02/16/06 08:55 PM)
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