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Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam?
    #29640538 -

Hey everyone,

This is my first attempt at growing mushrooms, so I’m still learning how to read the mycelium.

I’m using a PF Tek-style setup with 360 cc wide-mouth jars, a BRF/vermiculite substrate, and a dry verm layer. The jars were inoculated with a GT liquid culture syringe and have been colonizing for roughly four to five weeks. With a temperature between 18 and 22 °C.

Most of the jars look fine. The jar in the pictures is almost fully colonized and should be ready for birth after a few more days of consolidation.

The strange thing is this orange growth on the inside of the glass, above the top of the cake. It appears to be completely separate from the substrate and I don’t see it growing through the cake. It first appeared a two weeks ago and grew a little at first, but it has remained basically unchanged since then.

There is also a thin halo of white mycelium around the orange spot, almost as if the mycelium has grown over or around it.

I have noticed some white mycelium growing on the glass in other jars as well, probably from a small amount of nutrient residue left on the glass during inoculation. So I’m wondering if this orange spot could be growing on a similar patch of residue, or if it is actually a bacterial or fungal contam.

The dark specks visible in the photos look like vermiculite particles to me. They are not spreading, and I don’t see any obvious green or black mold in the cake.

My questions are:

1. Does this look more like a metabolite/exudate, mycelium growing on leftover nutrient residue, or an actual contam?
2. Has anyone seen mushrooms produce orange or yellow metabolites on the glass like this?
3. If the cake itself looks clean, would you birth it carefully and keep it separate, or would you consider the jar too risky?
4. When I eventually remove the cake, should I simply leave the orange spot alone and remove the cake without letting it touch the glass, or is there any better way to handle it?

I only have one fruiting chamber, so I’d rather not risk my other clean cakes for the sake of one questionable jar.

Thanks in advance for taking the time to read this and for any advice you can share. I really appreciate the help from this community.

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Re: Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam? [Re: SMDJ] * 1
    #29641322 -

ooooh that's a little unhappy, whatever it is. the white halo makes it look like it might be a pocket of myc that's dumping a shitload of metabolites, but that would mean something is stressing it out. and being near the rim like that, maybe something it's fighting off.

The darker spots on the left side of the pic are also looking a little wet / undercolonized, and there's a good amount of condensation in there.

You're right that it's not worth risking the other grows.

If you did want to try it in a quarantined area just to see, I'd open the jar carefully and with a gloved hand and an damp alcohol paper towel try to just get underneath and bleach that entire spot off the glass, and scrub it clean a bit. Probably do the whole inside rim and lip for good measure. Let the alc evap off so it doesn't stress the rest of the myc needlessly. Clearing the road before the rest of the cake goes over it, basically.


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.~`  𝔅 𝔞 𝔤 𝔢 𝔩  🥯  𝔅 𝔦 𝔱 𝔢 𝔰  `~.
:salute: CAKE WARS III STARTS SEPTEMBER 1st :salute:

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Re: Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam? [Re: Rasmodius] * 1
    #29641355 -

I've had stuff show up like that in grain jars with bacterial issues, usually with older/weaker cultures.

There's definitely some bacteria causing stress in your jar. The things Rasmodius listed above are the signs. I've had decent flushes from bacterial spawn, but they are way more prone to turning green too. If I had only have only one fruiting chamber, I'd leave that one out.

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Re: Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam? [Re: hummingbird]
    #29641872 -

Thanks a lot for the detailed replies, both of you. I’m going to read up on the “high bacterial load” issue, since I have a few other jars that don’t show any visible contamination, but do have some damp-looking areas and loose vermiculite around the edges. I had assumed the loose vermiculite was simply caused by not mixing it thoroughly enough with the BRF, but now I’m wondering if it could be related to excess moisture or bacterial issues. I’ll keep a close eye on those jars and definitely keep this one out of the fruiting chamber so I don’t risk the other grows. I really appreciate the advice.

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Re: Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam? [Re: SMDJ] * 1
    #29641886 -

I’d like to see the other jars. How did you prepare them? If all the jars have shoulders then how are you going to birth them?

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Re: Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam? [Re: The Tao]
    #29642226 -

Hey, thanks for asking!

I prepared these using an adapted PF Tek method, based mainly on this guide:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/24179086

I couldn’t find suitable wide-mouth jars without shoulders, so the best option I found has an 84 mm body diameter and an 82 mm opening. My plan is to let the cakes fully colonize and consolidate, hoping they shrink enough to pass through the opening when I birth them.

If they don’t come out cleanly, my contingency plan is to break them up and use them as spawn for a small bulk substrate rather than forcing them out of the jars.

All of the jars were inoculated on the same day, but they are progressing at very different rates. I plan to wait until each cake has completed about one week of consolidation, and then move each one to fruiting individually when it is ready, rather than putting all of them into fruiting conditions at the same time.

Because temperatures are relatively low here, I’ve been using the air conditioner to help stabilize the room, but the jars have mostly been colonizing between 18 and 21°C.

I also considered importing proper shoulderless jars, but the shipping cost alone would have been roughly $80 because of their weight, which made them far too expensive. These jars were much cheaper and seemed worth trying.

I’ll attach pictures of the other jars as well. They don’t show any obvious contamination, but some have damp-looking areas and loose vermiculite around the edges. One theory I have, although this is just a beginner’s guess, is that as the colonized cake shrinks, some of the vermiculite from the top layer falls into the gap that forms between the cake and the glass. I’m not sure whether that makes sense, though.

I initially assumed the loose vermiculite was simply caused by not mixing it thoroughly enough with the brown rice flour, but after the feedback about possible bacterial load, I’m taking a closer look at them.

If you have successfully birthed cakes from this type of jar, I’d be very interested to hear how you handled it. If you need pictures from different angles of any particular jar, just let me know and I’ll be happy to take them. Thanks for taking an interest and for taking the time to help me figure this out.








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Re: Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam? [Re: SMDJ]
    #29643527 -

Most of those extra wet, which is a sign of high bacterial load, or an invite for it. If your room is running cooler, you can get condensation from the mycelium vs glass temp difference too. 

The uncolonized vermiculite could be from the dry top layer falling down as the cake shrinks below it.

It's been over a decade since I've ran pf cakes, but those do seem behind where they should be at 4-5 weeks. Lower temps could slow colonization, but so can stress from bacteria.

All grows have some amount of bacteria in them. It's just if there's enough to stress out the mycelium enough to make it weaker and more susceptible to other contaminations or stalling that's a problem.

The one in the OP and the second one down in those pics look the worst to me. The 5th one down looks about ready to put into fruiting. I'd probably try fruiting that one first, and see where the rest go.

What are you going to use as a fruiting chamber?

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Re: Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam? [Re: hummingbird]
    #29643896 -

Thanks for taking the time to look through the jars. What you said makes a lot of sense, and I agree they’re taking longer than they should. From the outside, I’d say three of them are around 80–90% colonized, although they’re all progressing at very different rates.

I’m hoping the three most advanced ones finish up soon. Once they’re fully colonized, I’ll give them about a week of consolidation before moving them to fruiting, so hopefully around a week and a half from now. I’m not really in a rush, so I’ll give the slower ones more time and see if they catch up.

More than anything, I’m trying to figure out which part of my process is holding things back. My pressure cooker is one possible weak point since it doesn’t seem to hold pressure properly, and I’m also starting to suspect that the liquid culture may have been weak or old, or that the supplier’s culture simply wasn’t very reliable. In the future, I’d like to start my own culture from a clone so I have more control over that part.

For fruiting, I’m planning to use Water tub, since it seemed like the best fit for my setup. If anyone has another fruiting chamber setup they’d recommend, I’m open to suggestions.

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Re: Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam? [Re: SMDJ] * 1
    #29644067 -

What's going pn with your PC, why isn't it holding pressure? That is important, especially if you are going to get into agar or making your own LC later.

It's possible that your LC is older. They can last for awhile, but I notice loss of vigor after a few months with some cultures.

Cloning is a good idea unless your LC was started from a clone, which is possible.

Definitely take some prints from fruits you get. Learning how to work with agar will expand your possibilities so much in this hobby.

The water tub is a good choice for a fruiting chamber.

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Re: Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam? [Re: hummingbird]
    #29644518 -

My pressure cooker is very old, and the company that made it no longer exists. It leaks around the valve and safety-valve areas, so it doesn’t maintain pressure consistently. Because of that, I don’t really trust it for agar, LC, or future batches.

I’m looking into replacing it with a 23-quart Presto pressure canner with a pressure gauge. Having the gauge would give me some extra peace of mind that it’s actually reaching and maintaining the pressure it should.

The LC may also have been old or weak, although I don’t know whether it was originally started from a clone. I’m also researching cloning and spore prints as ways to preserve a good culture and, in a sense, reset the genetics if necessary. I already have the basic supplies to start working with agar, so that’s something I’d like to practice once I get a healthy fruit. I’ll definitely take prints from the best fruits I get.

It’s also good to know that the Water Tub seems like a solid choice. Thanks again for taking the time to explain all of this—it’s been really helpful while I figure out which parts of my process need improvement.

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Re: Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam? [Re: SMDJ]
    #29644615 -

Seem like there’s more than one issue with your grow so I’m only going to address the jars. 5 weeks from LC is a long time even with the larger jars. I’d wait until the cakes start to fruit before birthing them. They will have shrunk and might come out without a fight.
Some of the cakes look suspect to me but time will tell and you’ll learn something from the grow regardless.
Were the jars full with BRF/vermiculite and a dry verm layer before you PC’ed them? What type of tape is over the inoculation holes?
The more you handle the jars the more the vermiculite moves around. The dry layer is suppose to act as a barrier. I know it’s hard not to check on them but leaving them alone is the best practice.

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Re: Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam? [Re: The Tao] * 1
    #29645484 -

Thanks for taking the time to give me some tips. Since this is my first grow, I know the main thing I’ll get from it is experience, and I’m not expecting everything to turn out perfectly.

I used micropore tape that I had at home to cover the inoculation holes. I’ve noticed that some people on the forum use tape while others don’t, but my intention was to protect the growing mycelium inside as much as possible. I honestly don’t know how much difference there is between the different types or brands, since they all look pretty similar to me. If you recommend leaving the tape off, I’ll try that in my next grow.

I followed the tek I linked above as closely as I could. All the jars had the BRF/vermiculite mixture, a dry vermiculite layer on top, and aluminum foil covering the lids to protect them from water during pressure cooking. However, my pressure cooker is very old and doesn’t hold pressure properly, so that may have been one of the weak points in the process.

It makes sense that handling the jars too much could disturb the vermiculite layer. I’ll try to apply these tips and leave them alone as much as possible from now on. I’ll also keep your advice about waiting longer before birthing them in mind, especially since these jars have shoulders. Thanks again for the help.

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Re: Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam? [Re: SMDJ] * 1
    #29645662 -

It sounds like the rubber parts are probably worn out on your PC. You can sometimes get away with putting cooking oil or petroleum jelly on the gaskets/rubber pieces for awhile if they are dried and shrunk, but those parts do need to be replaced occasionally.

I like Presto PCs, that's what I use. They are inexpensive and easy to find parts for when you need to. The 23q is worth the little bit more in cost over the 16q, it has a lot more room.

You're doing the things with the stuff, and that's how you get experience. You have a good attitude and perspective on things as well, and that goes a long way.

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Re: Orange growth on the glass outside an almost fully colonized PF cake — metabolite or contam? [Re: hummingbird]
    #29645848 -

Keep plugging away and it’ll come. A proper pc will help a lot.
And as far as failures go, there’s a thread for that. Fail picture of the day!

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