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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Lynnch] * 1
    #29623073 -

We produce enough on a system that is unsustainable. Redistribution isn’t gonna cut it imo. I’m 100% on board with stepping in the right (left) direction, but if socialism isn’t prepared to address our consumption and environmental destruction, it’ll just get blamed when shit continues hitting the fan. I’m just thinking ahead at how much we have to correct and what it will cost, and am way less optimistic than you. Especially if socialist america continues feeling entitled to consumption and higher and higher standards… and humans in general just seem to want more. So if we solve hunger at 175% of the planets replenishment rate, we’ll soon have to solve it at 200% rate, with crashing ecosystems. I kinda wish DSA was even more extreme and calling for population control and serious cutting of standards for every social class. We can’t afford 50 more years of redistributed capitalism imo.

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Icon] * 3
    #29623086 -

Labels always seem to more be a sword then some benefit. I more try to think about that if some program is promoted, does it add up to a beneficial policy or not and does it add up to good governance. 

The labels are just buzz words for the opposition to tear down with out addressing the actual policy.  I have had people argue with me that building roads was socialisms and therefore bad.  I just point out it is good governance and that all governments have certain responsibilities.

I am not sure that more harm to individuals due to joining whole programs of communism, socialism, or capitalism though out history has been the outcome.  Better in my mind to just look a policy and whether it is smart and good or not.

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: gww] * 1
    #29623097 -

I’m with you on judging policy over labels. Roads aren’t “socialist,” they’re infrastructure.

The pushback I’d give: policies travel in bundles with institutions. History shows “whole programs” can create new failure modes. Collectivization plus price controls plus no political feedback equals famine, even if “feed everyone” was the stated policy.

Same with capitalism: property rights plus limited liability plus no carbon price equals 2008 plus climate overshoot, even if “efficient markets” was the stated policy.

So I think we agree: look at the specific policy. I’d add: also look at the rules and incentives and feedback loops that come bundled with it. That’s where history helps.

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: cubedryeguy] * 1
    #29623114 -

I agree that platforms give me an Ideal of who to vote for.  But historic labels were used against the new deal and healthcare and yada yada yada.  Not being a purist and just looking for best practices in all that has been done in the past just seems smarter then all this or all that.  But I do believe we are on the same page.  I am just trying to recognize the package point you made.

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: gww] * 1
    #29623117 -

Appreciate that. Totally with you on best practices over purity tests. And yeah, seems like we’re on the same page — good policy + honest look at the package it comes in. That’s the sweet spot. :cheers:

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: cubedryeguy] * 2
    #29623128 -

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/press-releases/news-sanders-and-khanna-introduce-legislation-to-tax-billionaire-wealth-and-invest-in-working-families/

How about this for some good socialism


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: ashfiken]
    #29623140 -

Not socialism — it’s a wealth tax. I like the goals, but history says 5% annual on 938 people to fund 7 programs is the risky package. I’d look for a version with less capital-flight risk and fewer moving parts.

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #29623143 -

Its redistribution of wealth.
A democratic socialist economic concept
Im sorry if you are misinformed.
But this is a beautiful thing to come forth and should be a turning point now where all countries do.
Have you heard of a wealthtax in america since the 1980s?


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: ashfiken]
    #29623144 -

Not really socialism but still good policy
:fuckyeah:

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #29623145 -

cubedryeguy said:
Not socialism — it’s a wealth tax. I like the goals, but history says 5% annual on 938 people to fund 7 programs is the risky package. I’d look for a version with less capital-flight risk and fewer moving parts.


Also everyone bitches about the risk and moving parts thats why shit doesnt get done. Instead mfers need to get to fucking work use ai programs to value and tax these pricks


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: ballsalsa]
    #29623146 -

ballsalsa said:
Not really socialism but still good policy
:fuckyeah:


I consider it democratic socialist economic policy bc redistribution of wealth..


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: ashfiken] * 2
    #29623147 -

Redistribution of wealth isn’t ‘democratic socialist’ — it’s taxes. We’ve had progressive income tax since 1913. Estate tax since 1916. Both redistribute. Neither made Eisenhower a democratic socialist.

If ‘redistribution’ = socialism, then Reagan keeping a 50% top bracket in 1986 was socialism. So was the GI Bill. You’re stretching the word until it snaps.

And yes, I’ve heard of a wealth tax since the 1980s. We had one: the estate tax. Top rate was 55% on estates >$600k until 2001. The difference now is it’s annual and on living billionaires, not just dead ones.

This bill is wealth-tax-funded welfare capitalism. Norway has a wealth tax. They’re capitalist. So is Switzerland. Words have meanings. ‘Socialism’ means state ownership of production. Musk still owns Tesla after this bill.

I’m not misinformed. I’m just not mislabeling.

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: ashfiken]
    #29623148 -

I think warren put forth a similar one too if my reading serves me


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: ashfiken]
    #29623149 -

ashfiken said:
cubedryeguy said:
Not socialism — it’s a wealth tax. I like the goals, but history says 5% annual on 938 people to fund 7 programs is the risky package. I’d look for a version with less capital-flight risk and fewer moving parts.


Also everyone bitches about the risk and moving parts thats why shit doesnt get done. Instead mfers need to get to fucking work use ai programs to value and tax these pricks


You proved my point about packages.

You: “this socialism”
Me: “wealth tax, not socialism”
You: “democratic socialist concept”
Now: “risk talk is why shit doesn’t get done” + “Warren put forth similar”

That’s 4 goalpost moves.


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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #29623150 -

Easy definitoon of socialized policies:

Socialist policy centers on social ownership of production, wealth redistribution, and expanding public services to prioritize human need over profit. Core ideas include universal healthcare, robust labor rights, and nationalizing key industries like energy or transportation to democratize economic decision-making.


Just like you went back and forth above about "policies"
They may ne considered socialist if thwy are to benefit the general public.
A welfare state(which we have) is a socialist policy.
Much of america already has socialized framework.
Its okay to call it that


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #29623151 -

Not necessarily state ownership.  Worker ownership would be sufficient to meet the definition

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: ashfiken]
    #29623152 -

Are you enlil?
Jesus. Christ
The thread is democratic socialist of america
I said shorthand in first poast socialist.
You call this out.
I say democratic socialist economic policy to elaborate for your semantic ass.
What is wrong here?


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #29623153 -

cubedryeguy said:
ashfiken said:
cubedryeguy said:
Not socialism — it’s a wealth tax. I like the goals, but history says 5% annual on 938 people to fund 7 programs is the risky package. I’d look for a version with less capital-flight risk and fewer moving parts.


Also everyone bitches about the risk and moving parts thats why shit doesnt get done. Instead mfers need to get to fucking work use ai programs to value and tax these pricks


You proved my point about packages.

You: “this socialism”
Me: “wealth tax, not socialism”
You: “democratic socialist concept”
Now: “risk talk is why shit doesn’t get done” + “Warren put forth similar”

That’s 4 goalpost moves.




Why are you so butthurt about an act against billionair3s?


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: ashfiken]
    #29623154 -

That’s not the “easy definition.” That’s the expanded one you use when you need to win.

Standard definition — Oxford/Econ 101: Socialism = state owns the means of production. USSR, Venezuela. That’s it.

Your definition: “Redistribution + public services = socialist.” By that logic:

Alaska’s $1,600 oil checks = socialism
Eisenhower’s 91% tax rate = socialism
Fire departments = socialism

If everything’s socialism, nothing is. Even Marx said welfare states aren’t socialism. Bismarck created Germany’s welfare state in the 1880s to prevent socialism. Norway/Sweden/Denmark: capitalist, welfare states, private companies.

Warren’s plan was 2% on $50M+. She lost because voters saw the execution risk. This bill is 5% on 938 people. Narrower, higher. More risky, not less. Citing Warren hurts your case.

“It’s okay to call it that.” No. Words matter. Calling a wealth tax “socialism” is how Social Security got called “creeping socialism” in 1935. It’s a tactic to kill policy without debating mechanics.

This bill: Wealth-tax-funded welfare capitalism. Musk still owns Tesla. That’s capitalism.

I’m not misinformed. I’m not letting you move from “this bill is socialism” → “actually all taxes are socialism” → “just accept it.”

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: cubedryeguy]
    #29623155 -

Wut?


--------------------
hmm...

"I'm naked and fearless... And my fear is naked."

"life isn't worth living without the threat of death"

"I got my plans in a ziploc bag, let's see how unproductive we can be"

"nobody lives their lives fully except for bull fighters"

My Trade List

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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