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PanCog
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: The Ecstatic]
#25305044 - 07/02/18 05:49 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Basically the DSA is saying "if we're going to be slaves to this capitalist system, at least make sure we dont starve, dont get poisoned, dont get sick and die."
Why I think socialism is better than capitalism is pretty easy: socialism is centered around justice and capitalism is centered around exploitation.
This is saying that socialism incorporates capitalism in the first sentence, and saying that they are different from each other in the next sentence.
Socialism is a hybrid of communism and capitalism I agree. But slavery is slavery, whether a slave to a Landlord, a King or the Masses. All slaves had houses, food, healthcare and jobs. Like any property it was an investment that needed to be cared for.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: SirTripAlot] 4
#25305059 - 07/02/18 06:00 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: I still believe in capitalism, but understand it's flaws....but socialism is not the dirty word I once thought it was.
What I find difficult to grasp is the justice aspect you speak of. Who or whom decides what is just? This is also a huge question for capitalism as well...as we see unjust results because of it. What I can't get my head around is swapping one for the other...the attempts to approach socialism have resulted in some oppressive, dictatorial governments.....and situations like Venezuela. Tell me where I am wrong.
By justice I mean economic justice. The material conditions of society under a presupposition of equality. Most people in the world are not born with wealth, and therefore survive by selling their labor. Under capitalism that means getting a job where your labor is exploited at the fundamental level. If I own a business I must hire someone who will make me more money than they cost me, otherwise I will be out of business. Under socialism, the means of production are owned socially, either by the state or communally. And as such, a worker gets out precisely what they put in. Socialism is nothing more than democracy in the workplace. All workers vote on decisions, on wages, and there is no capitalist nor CEO nor shareholders nor board of directors there to syphon away the surplus value of the workers' labor. Instead, that value is going to who earned it, the worker.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: PanCog]
#25305066 - 07/02/18 06:04 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
PanCog said: Basically the DSA is saying "if we're going to be slaves to this capitalist system, at least make sure we dont starve, dont get poisoned, dont get sick and die."
Why I think socialism is better than capitalism is pretty easy: socialism is centered around justice and capitalism is centered around exploitation.
This is saying that socialism incorporates capitalism in the first sentence, and saying that they are different from each other in the next sentence.
Socialism is a hybrid of communism and capitalism I agree. But slavery is slavery, whether a slave to a Landlord, a King or the Masses. All slaves had houses, food, healthcare and jobs. Like any property it was an investment that needed to be cared for.
Not really.
Democratic socialism and socialism are two different things.
Also, communism is different from socialism in a few ways, although completely divorced from capitalism. Socialism is typically referred to as the economic component while communism more a political ideology that incorporates socialism.
Its very important to distinguish between economic ideology and political ideology. Many seem to think socialism is the opposite of democracy, and thereby conflating capitalism with democracy. But you can have socialism in a democracy, you can have socialism in a monarchy, a dictatorship or any other political framework.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: The Ecstatic] 1
#25305080 - 07/02/18 06:13 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Its also important to note that many people who call themselves Democratic Socialists are in reality just Social Democrats (capitalists who believe in a strong welfare state). Social democrats and social democracies are places like Norway, Denmark, Sweden, all the Nordic countries you hear referenced in support of socialism. And while I think the US would do well to adopt a social democratic platform, it isnt actual socialism. Even Jeremy Corbyn, admitted socialist, isnt wholeheartedly calling for the nationalization of private industry in the UK. Bernie Sanders, most popular 'socialist' here in the US, isnt calling for the nationalizing of anything. Even his medicare for all plan would still exist in a healthcare system vastly controlled by private business, he would simply be adding a public option for health insurance.
I'm excited about the progress and about folks like SirTripsAlot shaking off the hangover of the Red Scare, but many of these socialist leaders and policies you keep reading about arent actually socialism.
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qman
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: The Ecstatic]
#25305198 - 07/02/18 07:20 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Kryptos
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: qman] 1
#25305212 - 07/02/18 07:27 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-02/democratic-socialists-openly-calling-communism-after-ocasio-cortez-win
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/20/democratic-socialists-at-iowa-state-university-call-for-shooting-trump.html
The second amendment folk that march with guns and armor are scared of a few college kids tweeting?
Quote:
conservative student said the socialist group has called for capitalists to be hanged before, adding members of his campus organization have felt “uneasy and threatened”
Bitch ass snowflake. You think random dudes dressed as stormtroopers marching down main street isn't threatening? Little pussies need to hide behind their guns and shields....hehe
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: qman] 4
#25305235 - 07/02/18 07:41 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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qman
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: The Ecstatic]
#25305258 - 07/02/18 07:55 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
qman said: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-02/democratic-socialists-openly-calling-communism-after-ocasio-cortez-win
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/20/democratic-socialists-at-iowa-state-university-call-for-shooting-trump.html
Ah so youve bought into the red scare propaganda as well as the immigrant propaganda.
Now whos a good bootlicker
I just read what they posted on Twitter, any comment other than suggesting I'm a victim of "propaganda"?
Were those people joking or is that how they honestly feel?
Where is this "propaganda" you speak of?
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: qman]
#25305416 - 07/02/18 09:24 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Kryptos
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: qman]
#25305426 - 07/02/18 09:29 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said:
Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
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qman said: https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-02/democratic-socialists-openly-calling-communism-after-ocasio-cortez-win
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/10/20/democratic-socialists-at-iowa-state-university-call-for-shooting-trump.html
Ah so youve bought into the red scare propaganda as well as the immigrant propaganda.
Now whos a good bootlicker
I just read what they posted on Twitter, any comment other than suggesting I'm a victim of "propaganda"?
Were those people joking or is that how they honestly feel?
Where is this "propaganda" you speak of?
Well of course, we're just like Richard Spencer and Milo Yamnot-fucking looking up his name: Trolling. It's all harmless fun, I don't get why you conservitards are getting so butthurt.
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qman
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Kryptos]
#25305459 - 07/02/18 09:48 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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So none of the leaders of the DSA posted that "communism is good" in the last few days?
I'm just asking the question because your post made zero sense to me.
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PanCog
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: PanCog]
#25305724 - 07/03/18 03:00 AM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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I am a slightly familiar with Scandinavian politics. I do believe that they are the first countries in the world that will abolish tobacco use in their countries, even ahead of the U.N. schedule. The Democratic Socialists (capitalists who believe in a strong welfare state) are perhaps even more insidious than overt Tyranny, there is still the strong centralized power of a tyrant but it lacks the violence that lets you know you are being controlled by force. The system, engineers consent and creates uniformity, the masses of people are sleepwalking and have no need for their brains. What happens to those that do not like what is happening to their rights and speak up about it? What happens to those that don't want their children to be subjected to the Socialist Democratic Conformist-Groupthink Schools? Individualism and Independence (American Values) are disapproved of as they threaten the system that everyone is feeding on. It is a Society that decides what is best for you and makes you afraid to say how you really feel. Continued nonconformity will lead to forced control. Here is an example of one family that just wants the government to leave them in peace. Of course that isn't happening. https://hslda.org/content/hs/international/Sweden/201706130.asp
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: qman]
#25305914 - 07/03/18 06:41 AM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
qman said: So none of the leaders of the DSA posted that "communism is good" in the last few days?
I'm just asking the question because your post made zero sense to me.
The DSA has ~44,000 members and even more supporters. Invariably there are other people like myself who think communism is good.
I'm glad it terrifies you.
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qman
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: The Ecstatic]
#25306001 - 07/03/18 08:13 AM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The Ecstatic said:
Quote:
qman said: So none of the leaders of the DSA posted that "communism is good" in the last few days?
I'm just asking the question because your post made zero sense to me.
The DSA has ~44,000 members and even more supporters. Invariably there are other people like myself who think communism is good.
I'm glad it terrifies you.
So I guess I'm not a victim of propaganda, correct?
"44,000 members"
Yet, it was senior leadership that made those posts.
"I'm glad it terrifies you"
It really doesn't. In fact, it kind of disappoints me that they would say those things because it hurts the organization.
I guess you think spewing that nonsense is a positive for the DSA, it's not.
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: qman]
#25306238 - 07/03/18 10:20 AM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yeah I'm sure youd join up if it werent for the handful of communists within the org.
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: PanCog] 1
#25306383 - 07/03/18 12:05 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
PanCog said: I am a slightly familiar with Scandinavian politics. I do believe that they are the first countries in the world that will abolish tobacco use in their countries, even ahead of the U.N. schedule.
And I believe they won't; they'll educate people about the dangers of smoking and the available alternatives, like snus, which is very popular in Sweden. In fact, only 5% of Swedes smoke, which is among the lowest rate anywhere, even though it's not illegal there.
Quote:
PanCog said: The Democratic Socialists (capitalists who believe in a strong welfare state) are perhaps even more insidious than overt Tyranny, there is still the strong centralized power of a tyrant but it lacks the violence that lets you know you are being controlled by force.
Free healthcare, free higher education, more vacation time = tyranny? Homelessness, hunger, bankruptcy = freedom? I don't get that mentality.
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PanCog said: The system, engineers consent and creates uniformity, the masses of people are sleepwalking and have no need for their brains.
The irony here is that you're clearly brainwashed by capitalism.
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PanCog said: What happens to those that do not like what is happening to their rights and speak up about it? What happens to those that don't want their children to be subjected to the Socialist Democratic Conformist-Groupthink Schools?
You're the self proclaimed expert on the subject - tell us what happens...
Quote:
PanCog said: Individualism and Independence (American Values) are disapproved of as they threaten the system that everyone is feeding on.
People are free to be as individualistic as they like under Socialist systems. This is why some here believe you know nothing of what you are talking about.
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PanCog said: Here is an example of one family that just wants the government to leave them in peace. Of course that isn't happening. https://hslda.org/content/hs/international/Sweden/201706130.asp
Things get tricky when it comes to children. Should you have a right to teach your kids to be stupid?
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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PanCog
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Snus is an exception in Sweden as they have some national pride in it, but smoking is on its way out there.
Free healthcare, free higher education, more vacation time = tyranny? Homelessness, hunger, bankruptcy = freedom? I don't get that mentality.
Understanding the relationships that dependency create is easier to see on the international scale by looking at how a State relates to other States. Third world countries often receive aid from the United States, but as with all things that are “free” they come with strings attached. By developing dependency relationships with the U.S. these countries become subservient to the wishes of the U.S. Instead of aid that must be sought annually, they would much rather learn how to build a productive economy and political system from which they can have a truly sovereign nation, independent of United States control. The United States would rather renew their aid packages than teach them to be independent for reasons of security and control.
This analogy is the same with a country's citizenry, by making people dependent, their behavior becomes predictable and they have no real political voice. The majority of those receiving benefits will always be hostile to critics because the critics are endangering the process that they have become dependent on for their lives.
The idea of "free" entitlement is spread by the simultaneous teaching of victimhood with flattery. People are told how wonderful they are and how they don't deserve their miserable lot in life. That by majority they can stand up for justice and democratically enforce everyone to pay their fair share. In other words they are taught to think that other people owe them something for nothing (or for taught injustices that happened between ancestors), that other people should be forced by law to give away what they have worked for because they are entitled to it. And so we have the manipulation of humans by using envy, greed, vanity, and laziness. This results in the enslavement of entire populations to ensure everyone has the same mediocre fate. Such cons are easy to perpetrate on most people, and they gladly pass responsibility for their lives onto others, yoking their productive neighbors into servitude with new socialist laws. This system doesn't encourage people to be better, to improve their lot in life, or to learn responsibility. It only perpetrates victim ideology, emphasizing the ones being robbed (productive citizens) as being the exploiters, and encourages totalitarian government dependency. Looking at modern history textbooks in schools all that one sees is victimization stories and the myth of progress we have made in treating everyone fairly by instituting this socialist form of government. However once instituted completely, socialist and communist governments do not allow minority voices to be heard, there is no freedom of press for the rebellious citizen, all that is offered them is the mental hospital or prison work camp. Civil rights advocates only operate in countries that are being taken over by socialism, not in countries that have been taken over. Once people really become victims of government oppression, really are slaves, and are trapped in a surveillance state, there is no uncensored media exposure or protest allowed for them. Freedom comes with responsibility, it isn't free and it isn't easy. Slavery is most successful when the slaves put the chains on themselves, it as easy as giving up on life.
Things get tricky when it comes to children. Should you have a right to teach your kids to be stupid?
This reveals another common trait among socialists. The idea that families are bad. They sacrifice the family on the altar of the Collective. Common Traits in a Socialist State: Children are removed from home as early as possible to attend public school, both parents working in order to deny a home environment. Thinking opinions that do not toe the party line are stupid and dangerous to children.
Edited by PanCog (07/03/18 04:38 PM)
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The Ecstatic
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: PanCog] 1
#25306803 - 07/03/18 05:00 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Socialism is about liberation, not dependency.
It never ceases to amaze me how much time people waste railing against socialism on the internet without ever considering they might actually learn about it first.
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PanCog
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: The Ecstatic]
#25306872 - 07/03/18 05:50 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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How is the person who pays increasingly higher taxes the harder and longer he works liberating? Why withhold the reward of hard work?
While it may not be true for everyone receiving benefits, one person I know has so much adopted the role of being mentally disabled that he seems to have forgotten that when he first started getting the checks it was only a fraud perpetrated to live the easy life (I knew him before that time and during the sign up process.) The fear of loosing the money seems to have given him motivation to become professionally crazy, and I would say he succeeded as he no longer drops the act after leaving his evaluations. I think the system that rewards dependent behavior and punishes those that want to be independent, or who want a higher quality of life is damaging to our species as a whole, as these welfare scams (which morph into actual mental disabilities) are often taught to children, who are also sometimes only valued as an additional source of welfare income. But you seem to think that teaching children any other philosophy will make them stupid. Over 11% of New York city residents claim to be disabled, this doesn't include all of the other welfare benefits, is that the future you want? Or is it that you plan on joining the ranks of the unemployable? It is often claimed that slavery was liberating for the slave masters, this seems to be your argument. Do you really think people are free and pursuing their happiness by being forced to feed and clean up after you?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: PanCog]
#25306970 - 07/03/18 06:57 PM (5 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
PanCog said: Snus is an exception in Sweden as they have some national pride in it, but smoking is on its way out there.
Well what do you know! Education works, without making it illegal!!!
Quote:
PanCog said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: Free healthcare, free higher education, more vacation time = tyranny? Homelessness, hunger, bankruptcy = freedom? I don't get that mentality.
Understanding the relationships that dependency create is easier to see on the international scale by looking at how a State relates to other States. Third world countries often receive aid from the United States, but as with all things that are “free” they come with strings attached. By developing dependency relationships with the U.S. these countries become subservient to the wishes of the U.S. Instead of aid that must be sought annually, they would much rather learn how to build a productive economy and political system from which they can have a truly sovereign nation, independent of United States control. The United States would rather renew their aid packages than teach them to be independent for reasons of security and control.
This analogy is the same with a country's citizenry, by making people dependent, their behavior becomes predictable and they have no real political voice. The majority of those receiving benefits will always be hostile to critics because the critics are endangering the process that they have become dependent on for their lives.
And here we go again... free healthcare, free higher education, more vacation time = tyranny, while homelessness, hunger, bankruptcy = freedom. I don't get that mentality.
Quote:
PanCog said: The idea of "free" entitlement is spread by the simultaneous teaching of victimhood with flattery. People are told how wonderful they are and how they don't deserve their miserable lot in life. That by majority they can stand up for justice and democratically enforce everyone to pay their fair share. In other words they are taught to think that other people owe them something for nothing (or for taught injustices that happened between ancestors), that other people should be forced by law to give away what they have worked for because they are entitled to it. And so we have the manipulation of humans by using envy, greed, vanity, and laziness. This results in the enslavement of entire populations to ensure everyone has the same mediocre fate. Such cons are easy to perpetrate on most people, and they gladly pass responsibility for their lives onto others, yoking their productive neighbors into servitude with new socialist laws. This system doesn't encourage people to be better, to improve their lot in life, or to learn responsibility. It only perpetrates victim ideology, emphasizing the ones being robbed (productive citizens) as being the exploiters, and encourages totalitarian government dependency. Looking at modern history textbooks in schools all that one sees is victimization stories and the myth of progress we have made in treating everyone fairly by instituting this socialist form of government. However once instituted completely, socialist and communist governments do not allow minority voices to be heard, there is no freedom of press for the rebellious citizen, all that is offered them is the mental hospital or prison work camp. Civil rights advocates only operate in countries that are being taken over by socialism, not in countries that have been taken over. Once people really become victims of government oppression, really are slaves, and are trapped in a surveillance state, there is no uncensored media exposure or protest allowed for them. Freedom comes with responsibility, it isn't free and it isn't easy. Slavery is most successful when the slaves put the chains on themselves, it as easy as giving up on life.
No, that's not correct (as The Ecstatic pointed out), but great job reciting billionaire propaganda!
Quote:
PanCog said: This reveals another common trait among socialists. The idea that families are bad. They sacrifice the family on the altar of the Collective. Common Traits in a Socialist State: Children are removed from home as early as possible to attend public school, both parents working in order to deny a home environment. Thinking opinions that do not toe the party line are stupid and dangerous to children.
More propaganda. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Quote:
PanCog said: Over 11% of New York city residents claim to be disabled, this doesn't include all of the other welfare benefits, is that the future you want?
It sounds to me like the present we already have.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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