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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: vicepope]
    #29621732 -

vicepope said:
Dragging kicking and screaming sounds like you're building the camps and need to fill them with people who disagrees with the message.


Im sure thats exactly what hes referring to.


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Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: lowbrow] * 2
    #29621766 -

Its more like when you teach a child to stop bullying other children out of their candy and start sharing.


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:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: vicepope] * 4
    #29622334 -

vicepope said:
Dragging kicking and screaming sounds like you're building the camps and need to fill them with people who disagrees with the message.


The camps have existed for quite some time and they’re all filled with the people you constantly bitch about.

Anyway, my comment is more in the vein of what Georgy Zhukov said after World War Two:

“We have liberated Europe from fascism, and they will never forgive us for it.”


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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #29622615 -



Democratic Socialism offers a vision of society where freedom is strengthened—not diminished—by ensuring that every person has access to the essentials of a dignified life: quality healthcare, education, fair wages, affordable housing, and meaningful opportunity. Rather than allowing wealth and power to concentrate in the hands of a few, it seeks to build an economy that serves the common good while preserving democratic institutions, civil liberties, and political pluralism. In an era marked by widening inequality, social isolation, economic insecurity, and declining trust, its emphasis on solidarity, shared responsibility, and human well-being presents a compelling response to many of the challenges of our time. By placing people before profit and recognizing that the health of each individual is bound to the health of the community, Democratic Socialism argues that a more just, compassionate, and resilient society is not only possible, but within our collective reach.





My party is the Dutch Socialist Party, SP, which blends Democratic Socialism with Social Democracy.




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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #29622832 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What makes you think communists have no right to choose their job? 


In spite of being differently named, both respective systems are under artificial scarcity and regulatory capture, so that work is a privilege and not a right.


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WEF defector.

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Asante]
    #29622840 -

Asante said:


Democratic Socialism offers a vision of society where freedom is strengthened—not diminished—by ensuring that every person has access to the essentials of a dignified life: quality healthcare, education, fair wages, affordable housing, and meaningful opportunity. Rather than allowing wealth and power to concentrate in the hands of a few, it seeks to build an economy that serves the common good while preserving democratic institutions, civil liberties, and political pluralism. In an era marked by widening inequality, social isolation, economic insecurity, and declining trust, its emphasis on solidarity, shared responsibility, and human well-being presents a compelling response to many of the challenges of our time. By placing people before profit and recognizing that the health of each individual is bound to the health of the community, Democratic Socialism argues that a more just, compassionate, and resilient society is not only possible, but within our collective reach.





My party is the Dutch Socialist Party, SP, which blends Democratic Socialism with Social Democracy.





Ok but what's the math look like in the united states long term.


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The better guide to grow mushrooms.
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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: vicepope] * 3
    #29622862 -

The USA is fucked either way. Its unamerican and alien to half the voter base to care one iota for people of no practical use to them in asmuch they can extract benefits off them for themselves.

MAGA etc are an excursion away from being Human.

The USA will not just be #2, it will wisp out of the Top 5 before you know it.

Hey but you got a Trillionaire - thats worth bleeding the world for, right?


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Asante]
    #29622872 -

Democratic socialism is a sneaky colloquialism for communism.


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Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: lowbrow] * 3
    #29622878 -

lowbrow said:
Democratic socialism is a sneaky colloquialism for communism.


Democratic socialism seeks to achieve greater economic equality through democratic institutions, elections, and constitutional government—not by abolishing democracy or imposing one-party rule.

Communism, in its classical form, aims for a classless, stateless society and has historically often been associated with centralized one-party states claiming to pursue that goal.

Conflating the two is like saying every market economy is laissez-faire capitalism: shared elements don't make them the same ideology.


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Asante]
    #29622908 -

Asante said:
lowbrow said:
Democratic socialism is a sneaky colloquialism for communism.


Democratic socialism seeks to achieve greater economic equality through democratic institutions, elections, and constitutional government—not by abolishing democracy or imposing one-party rule.

Communism, in its classical form, aims for a classless, stateless society and has historically often been associated with centralized one-party states claiming to pursue that goal.

Conflating the two is like saying every market economy is laissez-faire capitalism: shared elements don't make them the same ideology.


Use all the buzzwords you want, the goal is still communism.


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Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: lowbrow] * 2
    #29622918 -

lowbrow said:
Use all the buzzwords you want...


You are describing yourself.


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halfass mycology

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: GenericHero]
    #29622921 -

I do love my buzzwords, but im not a filthy communist.


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Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: lowbrow] * 1
    #29622927 -

How about a fascist?  Which have some things that rhyme with communism in that they may not nationalize private business  but do control who can own them or whether they can function.  Then again, trump is into actual ownership.

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Asante] * 1
    #29622928 -

Asante said:
Democratic Socialism offers a vision of society where freedom is strengthened—not diminished—by ensuring that every person has access to the essentials of a dignified life: quality healthcare, education, fair wages, affordable housing, and meaningful opportunity. . .

By placing people before profit and recognizing that the health of each individual is bound to the health of the community, Democratic Socialism argues that a more just, compassionate, and resilient society is not only possible, but within our collective reach.


My only concern is how does socialism account for the general extinction that humans are inflicting on the world and ourselves?

Because I think some people see socialism as their chance to revive a 1900’s boom in wealth and opportunity. I’d be pretty happy to have the same basic opportunities to afford a house, healthcare, education, etc. But most of us expect the cream on top, too — cars, technology, entertainment, commodities, travel, etc.

The world can’t sustain first world qualities for even half the population, let alone everyone. If socialism is a path to equality or equity, where exactly would that average have to be for it to actually be sustainable?

Even if we all worked together on the goal, if it meant American living standards averaging at the poverty level (to spread the wealth globally), would people actually be motivated to follow through? We can’t even trust ourselves to conserve water or pay down our national debt. Unless the rest of the world has a gun to our head, how will we ever solve human greed?

is=N6QQfqqi-399NGOm

I ask because it feels insurmountable to the point we might as well enjoy the few decades we have left in ignorant bliss until the world falls apart and mass extinction resets our footprint. Seems like the billionaire class is already looking ahead to a new dawn where those few that can afford to survive are managed and maintained by machines.

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Icon]
    #29622935 -

They want to see us pulling a plow.


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Amanita86 said:
Sui is trying to mod right now.  Kinda like a newborn calf tryin ta stand fer the first time ain’t it..

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Icon] * 3
    #29622997 -

None of you are rich enough to be sucking the cock of capitalism this hard.

Oh no, free healthcare and cheap rent, what other horrors should we be afraid of?

It is time to reorient society to benefit the common man.

Icon said:
My only concern is how does socialism account for the general extinction that humans are inflicting on the world and ourselves?
...
Even if we all worked together on the goal, if it meant American living standards averaging at the poverty level (to spread the wealth globally), would people actually be motivated to follow through?


So just to be clear- "spreading the wealth globally" is not a policy position of the DSA or any Democratic socialist, Socialist, or even Communist that i've ever seen.
So i'm not sure why you would think that is the goal here. The GOAL is to INCREASE living standards, and it is a mistake to view that as a zero sum game.

Its a necessary movement because our living standards are already decreasing- all so that billionaires can buy a third yacht.

How much of that scarcity is artificial and designed to exploit people?

We aren't blind. Everyone can see the disparity.
But not just of wealth (much of which is a ponzi scheme of investment and loans)
... But also the disparity of priority.
We are told it's a waste, we can't afford it, we have to tighten our belts- any time the expense is for schools, or to feed people, to heal the sick... But if it's war? Endless millions, now how bout billions, now a Trillion dollars! Bailouts for banks? The money falls from the sky!
Scarcity for the people, Endless wealth for the wealthy.

We are done with that lie.

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Lynnch] * 1
    #29623006 -

I think you’re reading Icon wrong. He opened by quoting Asante’s vision and basically said “I want that.” Healthcare, housing, education — he’s on board.

His question wasn’t “socialism bad.” It was: given real planetary limits, what’s the sustainable per-capita standard of living we’re aiming for? And if it’s lower than current U.S. averages, are people going to buy in politically?

That’s not defending billionaires. It’s asking for the engineering specs behind the vision. “Spread the wealth globally” was him trying to steelman the hardest version of the problem — not claiming it’s DSA policy.

Yes, a lot of scarcity right now is artificial. We all see the war budgets and bailouts. But there’s also physical scarcity: energy, carbon budget, arable land. Conflating those doesn’t help.

Icon’s basically asking: once we take the yachts away, what does “increased living standards” actually cash out to per person? If we can’t answer that, we cede the argument to people who say “degrowth = poverty.”
That question deserves an answer, not an insult.

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: cubedryeguy] * 2
    #29623008 -

Lynnch said:
None of you are rich enough to be sucking the cock of capitalism this hard.

Oh no, free healthcare and cheap rent, what other horrors should we be afraid of?

It is time to reorient society to benefit the common man.

Icon said:
My only concern is how does socialism account for the general extinction that humans are inflicting on the world and ourselves?
...
Even if we all worked together on the goal, if it meant American living standards averaging at the poverty level (to spread the wealth globally), would people actually be motivated to follow through?


So just to be clear- "spreading the wealth globally" is not a policy position of the DSA or any Democratic socialist, Socialist, or even Communist that i've ever seen.
So i'm not sure why you would think that is the goal here. The GOAL is to INCREASE living standards, and it is a mistake to view that as a zero sum game.

Its a necessary movement because our living standards are already decreasing- all so that billionaires can buy a third yacht.

How much of that scarcity is artificial and designed to exploit people?

We aren't blind. Everyone can see the disparity.
But not just of wealth (much of which is a ponzi scheme of investment and loans)
... But also the disparity of priority.
We are told it's a waste, we can't afford it, we have to tighten our belts- any time the expense is for schools, or to feed people, to heal the sick... But if it's war? Endless millions, now how bout billions, now a Trillion dollars! Bailouts for banks? The money falls from the sky!
Scarcity for the people, Endless wealth for the wealthy.

We are done with that lie.


Don’t confuse me for propping up capitalism. My point is if DSA only goes as far as spreading the wealth from high income to low income americans, and aims to elevate american standards at the continued expense of third world populations and habitats, that only solves one problem while continuing to saw off the limb we stand on. Over 4 billion people live on less than $10/day. Is part of the plan continuing to exploit the labor and resources of other countries and letting half the world population suffer climate change and famine until they simply go extinct? And then who makes the stuff and farms the food?

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Icon] * 2
    #29623024 -

Quote function auto assigns reply-to. We dont currently have a multi-reply-to  or reply to 'All/no-one/thread' .. First half of that post should not be read as directed to Icon.


I think we are a lot more likely to come up with a solution for that big problem with a socialist perspective in place.

Because the right wing solution is to build walls, dehumanize the undesirables, and let em die; and when the problem comes home, the solution is still the same. 

But I'm not sure I buy the contention that we just simply don't have enough to support a good quality of life for the world.
We already produce enough food to solve world hunger, so what has stopped us? (desire for profit)

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Re: The Democratic Socialists of America [Re: Lynnch]
    #29623060 -

You’re right that we produce enough calories. FAO data: world food production is ∼2,900 kcal/person/day, well above the ∼2,100 kcal needed. ∼811 million people were undernourished in 2020 despite that surplus.

Main drivers of hunger aren’t total supply. UN/WFP point to 4 factors: conflict, climate shocks, economic downturns, and supply-chain/distribution losses. Roughly 14% of food is lost post-harvest before retail, and another 17% wasted at retail/consumer level. So “profit motive” is part of it, but so are war, bad roads, refrigeration, and poverty — people can’t buy food even when it’s there.

Lynnch said:
I think we are a lot more likely to come up with a solution for that big problem with a socialist perspective in place.




Depends what we mean by socialist. If we mean universal programs + strong safety nets: Nordic countries score high on quality of life and also give the most foreign aid per capita — Norway was 1.1% of GNI in 2023, Sweden 0.88%, compared to the UN target of 0.7%. They’re mixed economies with markets + high taxes + redistribution.

If we mean centrally planned economies: the USSR in the 1930s and China 1959-1961 both had famines where food existed but distribution/price controls failed. Ukraine’s Holodomor and China’s Great Leap Forward are the extreme cases. So the historical record says centralization alone doesn’t guarantee access.

The common denominator for reducing hunger seems to be: peace, functioning infrastructure, and state capacity to deliver. That can exist under multiple systems.

Lynnch said:
Because the right wing solution is to build walls, dehumanize the undesirables, and let em die 




That’s a real rhetoric on the fringe, but it’s not the full policy picture. US foreign aid was $63B in FY2023. PEPFAR, started under Bush, is credited with ∼25M lives saved from HIV/AIDS. EU is the largest ODA donor globally at €95.9B in 2022. Germany took ∼1.2M refugees in 2015/2016 under Merkel’s CDU government.

There are documented deaths from border policy — IOM recorded 6,877 migrant deaths globally in 2023. So the criticism of cruelty is fair. But “let them die” as the explicit policy goal isn’t accurate for most center-right platforms. It’s usually border enforcement + limited legal pathways + aid.

I’m not convinced it’s ideology alone — seems like logistics, conflict, and governance dominate the data.

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