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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2944147 -

I will always have a language in my head to express my thoughts or my absence of thoughts or even my pre-expressed thoughts. Theres no way i can even remotely simulate what it would be like in my mind.
[...]But no matter how much i distract it or meditate, it will never be completely silenced. youre getting to ahead of me... im just talking about... how would it feel or sound to know no language.
[...]sorry... but i dont believe this at all. when youre replaying the day in your head with images, youre still thinking... "yea... that sure did hurt" "hahaha that was funny" "that bitch, she had no right" "i never itched that badly before in my life" or whatever...
[...]I dunno... I dont think the language of your thoughts ceases function..
[...] but everyone is going to have SOMETHING in their head thats the language they speak.. wether you hear it or not...
and so on and so on...

no need to be rude, I just think you should get more loose to the context of speech or language. Language forms out of symbols, symbols form out of pictures/needs/emotions/etc.

Perhaps is that what you seek ?

And yes, hte more symbols somebody has for 'function-connecting', the more abstract or rational somebody is able to think.

Sometimes what you get is not what you expect.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: pre-language SALVIATRIP REPORT [Re: plexus]
    #2944155 -

plexus said:
ever think that instead of regressing to a pre-language state of mind, you were trancending to a post-language state?




post or pre, in either case, the echoes of sound had little traction in the memorysphere (as language would) yet had excellent presence as the now shifted into deeper salvia space.

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Re: pre-language SALVIATRIP REPORT [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2945615 -

BlueCoyote said:
no need to be rude, I just think you should get more loose to the context of speech or language. Language forms out of symbols, symbols form out of pictures/needs/emotions/etc.

Perhaps is that what you seek ?

And yes, hte more symbols somebody has for 'function-connecting', the more abstract or rational somebody is able to think.

Sometimes what you get is not what you expect.


see, thats the thing. I think everything youre saying is the obvious. Everything that youre saying is what one would expect with our limited humanistic reasoning. I think theres just more than what youre saying.

What youre doing is saying that when you strip away language, all you have is the images and symbols that are there to begin with. whats the thought is in its more "pure" form. just images. emotions. needs. desires. psychic energy. and that thats what would be left in our human mind during times before language... And i think that's the obvious, that's what is expected. That follows so well to our humanistic thinking and our rational. And thats the first thing i thought when i first thought about it. That is whats expected. What i think is that theres more to it. that there would be something in its place.

Apparently you dont think i know anything about language and thought patterns and how they work. I've listened to and read as many Terrance McKenna lectures on the subject as the next philosopher or psychonaut. Whatever... I just dont think I'm getting what I'm trying to say across.

redgreenvines said:
post or pre, in either case, the echoes of sound had little traction in the memorysphere (as language would) yet had excellent presence as the now shifted into deeper salvia space.


yea. had little traction. but not no traction. maybe theres a point where theres so little traction that we dont percieve it to be there, but I think as long as we live in the constraints of our human mind, thats one aspect that will never absolutly leave us. Not until death when we return to that, oh so frequented, memoryshere.


--------------------
that there, thats not me. :noway:
i go where i please. :yesnod:
im not here.:shake:
this isnt happening.:nonono:

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Re: pre-language SALVIATRIP REPORT [Re: plexus]
    #2945895 -

Thanks, perhaps I am not getting it right and I am missing a link between the obvious, so please carry on :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2951953 -

"everyone is going to have SOMETHING in their head thats the language they speak.."

I disagree completely. My thoughts DO get somewhat attached to my breathing at times, and there are things that are kind of like little pieces of words, but they're more like vibes that I'm thinking and not real words..


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2952450 -

Oh my god this is deep. I've never thought about this before.

Chomsky's Universal Grammar theory proposes that all language is innate. All humans are said to be pre-wired with the ability to communicate through language before we even begin to learn a specific language because the frame works are already there.


--------------------
"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2952574 -

plexus, I think you're getting your point across perfectly well.
Not to put down anyone else in this thread, but I'd suggest that anyone who really understands what you're getting at just hasn't replied because this is just such a hard question to answer. As you say, it's impossible for us to imagine thinking without a language (in a normal state of consciousness at least) because it's what we do all the time, even when we're telling ourselves not to.
I would suggest asking a deaf person but of course, they do have a language too. I'd imagine if a deaf person thinks 'I need to pee', they are thinking of exactly the same concepts as they would if they were signing 'I need to pee'. After all, I don't know about you, but I don't actually hear voices in my head, just think words. So would someone without language think these same concepts? I think so, but it's impossible for us to visualise this because our language is so inextricably bound to them.
I'm not sure where I'm going with this so I'll stop. Interesting question.

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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2953662 -

I play the guitar and the sitar. When i think about these intruments I don't hear words in my mind. But I do hear chords, tones and timber.

Hell sometimes I just hear sounds out of nothingness. Monotone droning, psychedelic twitering and such. This is the only way I could describe thoughts with out words.

These sounds are very effective when I am trying to reach a state of trance like hypnosis. They are very inducive, calming and centering.

I never thought anything in reality would be comparable until I heard some of the sounds produced in ambient music.

Shrooms really kick in this latent aural quality in my mind. I don't see images perse in the normal sense but sound comes as easily as water pouring down a mountain.

I hope this helps your query! :thumbup:

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Re: pre-language [Re: entheoindole]
    #2957713 -

Strumpling said:
"everyone is going to have SOMETHING in their head thats the language they speak.."

I disagree completely. My thoughts DO get somewhat attached to my breathing at times, and there are things that are kind of like little pieces of words, but they're more like vibes that I'm thinking and not real words..


well, i didnt mean that in the sense of a thought that you're completely aware of. Not something in the front of your mind's focus... Your mind could be focused on becoming calm and quiet. Everyone knows the iceberg model of the mind.... that only a small portion of thought is concious... there theres all this real thought
below the water, behind the scenes. Unconcious and subconcious thought.

Theres this trip that i had kind of recently that pertains to this. It wasnt one of those calm, quiet, introspective, medatative trips... this trip was based on chaos, both mentally and physically. I was consumed by paranoia at on point, and that led the trip into a dark ally of the mind. Well, my mind was racing with the chaos. It was like the waters around my iceburg sank, revealing more and more of this subconcious thought. There were so many thoughts in my mind, just a massive jumble. There were so many thoughts, that i couldnt hear what was going on outside my own mind. Someone asked me a question, but it just got lost in the chaos. I could hear each individual word, and i knew what they all meant... but it just didnt form into an idea inside my mind. All i would respond with is "no", "nothing". Which apparently doesnt answer every question.

Theres a reason why theres only that tip of concious thought... we wouldnt be able to function if all our thoughts were made present to us. Your language is at the base of all those thoughts, because from an early age, your earliest age, your taught to use that language to express them. The language fills a sort of slot that we're predisposed to. Try to think of how your American, English language sounds to native Chinese. Or how an American accect sounds to someone whoo grew up in England. Its impossible to think because thats to voice of your mind. Youre raised with that American accent in your mind. You cant put yourself into that other state of mind. Just like I cant put myself into the state of mind of someone without a language. I can only imagine.

and wayward, you cant really ask a deaf person, because they have no reference. They cant put their own mind into one that can hear or speak. They dont know what its like, so they cant tell you how their own mind is different.


--------------------
that there, thats not me. :noway:
i go where i please. :yesnod:
im not here.:shake:
this isnt happening.:nonono:

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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2960130 -

i have a suggestion for you... but i'm not sure you'll be able to do it...

you should try to HEAR and NOTICE grammer rather then words when speaking... it's EXECTLY the same with music (when you know the musical grammer and you have the abilety to "speak" it on an instrument you can make any music you hear in your head on that instrument) and i think with ANYTHING alse also!

and a good way to notice grammer is trying to speak two languages simoltenuesly (and corectly...) switching back and forth whenever you want or whenever it is possible and corect
but i'm not sure if you know another language...

there is a language to EVREYTHING!
pysics is a language for example... and it explains most things you can see but you dont THINK/HEAR it becouse you dont have to share it with anyone...  everyone knows about gravity right? so you dont think the word gravity every second of the day just becouse you dont float... but you KNOW it every second! you "speak" it :smile:


--------------------
:mushdance::sanpedro::peyote::mushroom2: :heart: Shr:supershroom::supershroom:mery :heart: :mushroom2::peyote::sanpedro::mushdance:
      Visit & Support Free Spore Ring Earth
      :sun: Please help spread live Salvia Divinorum :sun:


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Re: pre-language [Re: Simisu]
    #2960245 -

yes like the cadence of language is the arms and fingers pointing at the ideas as they are being delivered.
no wonder plexus is mapping language onto thought, there is a lot of pointing going on, and a cadence of mental gesturing even in the silence

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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2960999 -

I think it's an interesting experiment to repeat one word very often. Suddenly it looses its meaning and its just plain word. Then if you rethink over the meaning it gets clearer for what the word actually stands for and perhaps we come closer to pre-language...

Just a thought.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: pre-language [Re: Simisu]
    #2961476 -

simisu said:
HEAR and NOTICE grammer rather then words when speaking... it's EXECTLY the same with music (when you know the musical grammer and you have the abilety to "speak" it on an instrument you can make any music you hear in your head on that instrument) and i think with ANYTHING alse also!


Exactly! I can think of a piano and automatically I hear chords being banged out on the keyboard.

But what gets me is some of the unexplained sounds I hear. These, I would think, are thoughts with out words. If only I could put them into words, then I could make more sense of them. They have definite meaning and emotional impact. BUT! It's very hard to translate them into english. If I had a lot of time and some very good equipment maybe I could re-produce something analogous to the sounds my brain generates.

I experienced these sounds long before I ever ingested any hallucinogen so I don't think they're attributable to any of those compounds.

I grew up around music and it's kind of a family legacy. I guess cerebral aural expression just comes naturally to me...

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Re: pre-language [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2962856 -

"I think its WAY harder than that... when you try to stop your thoughts forming in words, youre thinking "STOP FORMING WORDS... ok, i stopped forming words, oh, is that the thought i was about to think? I see." When youre at a loss for words, youre thinking "What can i do to describe this?" or "HOLY SHIT!"... theres never going to be a point where my thoughts are void of english words... theres just no way..."

Yeah.. that's what I've found too basically. The few occasions that I can actually say I wasn't thinking in words much were more blackouts than anything, maybe.. I was tripping, very good acid, alone.. had gone to my room and laid down in the dark. 5 hours passed. It felt like 5 minutes, and the only thing I was concious of was my breathing.. and that's it. End of the story, basically.

"It wasnt one of those calm, quiet, introspective, medatative trips... this trip was based on chaos, both mentally and physically. I was consumed by paranoia at on point, and that led the trip into a dark ally of the mind. Well, my mind was racing with the chaos. It was like the waters around my iceburg sank, revealing more and more of this subconcious thought. There were so many thoughts in my mind, just a massive jumble. There were so many thoughts, that i couldnt hear what was going on outside my own mind. Someone asked me a question, but it just got lost in the chaos. I could hear each individual word, and i knew what they all meant... but it just didnt form into an idea inside my mind. All i would respond with is "no", "nothing". Which apparently doesnt answer every question. "

Been there, too. Literally shaking from the stress of so much noise in my head. That was again, the above example.. after I got out of my bed. Something that I do not want to go through again.

I don't know. I'm as lost in this as you.

Odd, off the wall question. How easily can you / could you learn a foreign language?

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Re: pre-language [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2963289 -

i've picked up english as a little boy and becouse i love it so much it grew on me with time (i tend to check out every word i dont understand/fully understand or am just curiuse about whenever i can!)

my mom speaks spanish and so do some of my reletives but i've never picked that up! though i do recognize lots of spanish words (the first was clearly "quidado" which means be cearfull :smile: )
but i'm going on t a trip to argentina and paraguai for three weeks and i hope i could pick it up that fast! and if not that fast and i see there's a chance for me to do it then i'm gonna come back... it's something i really want to do!

arabic was really hard for my though but then i never wanted to know arabic so i didn't really learn... i just sat in the classroom!

i think learning a new language late in life is very hard... but maybe once you "let go" of your own language and really listen to your self without words then it maybe easier to substetute the words becouse you'd first think of the new grammer?


--------------------
:mushdance::sanpedro::peyote::mushroom2: :heart: Shr:supershroom::supershroom:mery :heart: :mushroom2::peyote::sanpedro::mushdance:
      Visit & Support Free Spore Ring Earth
      :sun: Please help spread live Salvia Divinorum :sun:


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Re: pre-language [Re: Simisu]
    #2970673 -

"i think learning a new language late in life is very hard... but maybe once you "let go" of your own language and really listen to your self without words then it maybe easier to substetute the words becouse you'd first think of the new grammer? "

that's sort of what i'm trying to figure out..  plexus, I await your answer :laugh:

I've got a theory in my head about all of this, but it's pretty shadowy.  In short I think many, many people are crazy, slightly.  An evolutionary adaptation of sorts.  Different mental construction, different abilities you're better or worse at than others..  something I think actually may come into play on such mindfuck things like LSD or shrooms.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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