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Offlineplexus
holding thelight of athousand candles

Registered: 04/24/03
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Loc: texas
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pre-language
    #2934139 - 07/27/04 10:17 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

This is a concept I've been struggling with.

When I think, I think in English. I just thought the English words, "When I think, I think in English." before I typed them out. I had a friend from Mexico who moved to America when she was a little girl. She told me once, that when she thinks, she thinks in Spanish, even when she speaks in English. (which she spoke as well as anyone)

So, I've been trying to think... if I didnt know a language, how would my thoughts... sound? how would they appear in my head?

Before we created language, back when we first started to think as human beings, in what form did these thoughts manifest? How were they heard in the heads of the thinker?

There were Native American tribes (not ancient, but more recent)which functioned without even having a language. How did they hear their thoughts?

I wonder how deaf people's thoughts arise.

Any thoughts or comments on this troubling concept?

:confused:


--------------------
that there, thats not me. :noway:
i go where i please. :yesnod:
im not here.:shake:
this isnt happening.:nonono:


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InvisibleMellowMood
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Registered: 04/24/04
Posts: 185
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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2934282 - 07/27/04 10:51 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Images?


--------------------
"Im a dreamin man
yes thats my problem
I cant tell when im
not being real"


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Anonymous

Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2934361 - 07/27/04 11:18 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

There was just another thread about this a week ago...

Anyway, it's not too hard if you try. Just go about your day and stop yourself before your thoughts form into words. The words in your head always come after the thought. The thought isn't formed from the words. 'Thinking in words' is basically your brain's process of translating conceptual thought into the vocabulary of everyday experience. When someone is at a 'loss for words' they are still thinking the thought but can't translate it into any comparable experience they've had before.


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Offlineferago2
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Re: pre-language [Re: MellowMood]
    #2934587 - 07/28/04 12:11 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I read a study recently involving how infants use their brains before they've learned to be able to speak, and it indicated that even after they begin to learn a language (close to a year old) they clearly think in non linguistic terms. The study used a korean language concept of how well something fits into a container (something that has no simple analog in english), and the infants were shown to be able to use that concept despite it not being part of the lanuage enviroment in which they were raised (English)

My point? I'm not sure I have one, but it illustrates that complex thought can exist outside of a language framework... I don't think anyone knows the details though.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2935590 - 07/28/04 09:07 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

This thread got me thinking about something yesterday, so I thought I"d throw it out there for fun..

This is just a what-if, but..

What if the integration of language was the invention of ego?

I mean, in general, silencing one's inner voice is considered a method towards ego depletion... but if we didn't speak a language, would there BE an inner voice? If so, how can that be?

Just a random thought.. heh..


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2935604 - 07/28/04 09:28 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

matching

the brain is a matching machine
it matches what is arizing and what is falling away

it matches shapes and sequences.

a pattern seeker - an engram hunter

watch it work.

(to watch it work you might have to distract it with something like following the breath and then just keep the awareness alive)

what you call thinking in english is mostly echo matching, and not even real thought or new thought, or synthesis.


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OfflineIamHungry
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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2935727 - 07/28/04 10:48 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

i dont think in language unless as was stated if i was to type my thoughts out or speak. when im lying in bed before i go to sleep a lot of my thinking is done in images, just like replaying the day in my head.

i dont think it would be TOO hard to live without language, so long as we werent completely dependent on other people.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: pre-language [Re: IamHungry]
    #2935729 - 07/28/04 10:51 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

we would probably feel something was missing
I know I do when it ceases to function (level 5-6 on salvia).
but consciousness and thought continues.


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2935839 - 07/28/04 12:07 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

when I'm on mushrooms I tend to not think in English until my thoughts reach the point where "translation" is easy.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlineplexus
holding thelight of athousand candles

Registered: 04/24/03
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Re: pre-language [Re: ]
    #2936650 - 07/28/04 04:27 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Max Headroom said:
Anyway, it's not too hard if you try. Just go about your day and stop yourself before your thoughts form into words. The words in your head always come after the thought. The thought isn't formed from the words. 'Thinking in words' is basically your brain's process of translating conceptual thought into the vocabulary of everyday experience. When someone is at a 'loss for words' they are still thinking the thought but can't translate it into any comparable experience they've had before.




I think its WAY harder than that... when you try to stop your thoughts forming in words, youre thinking "STOP FORMING WORDS... ok, i stopped forming words, oh, is that the thought i was about to think? I see." When youre at a loss for words, youre thinking "What can i do to describe this?" or "HOLY SHIT!"... theres never going to be a point where my thoughts are void of english words... theres just no way... I can get a small glimpse, a small impression of the thought before i find the words to express it in my mind... But theres always voices behind voices behind voices in my head... What I'm talking about is being an adult human without a language to express your thoughts, inside a community of adults that dont have a language to express their thoughts... Maybe a few grunts to express their emotions. How does that person's mind sound? I will always have a language in my head to express my thoughts or my absence of thoughts or even my pre-expressed thoughts. Theres no way i can even remotely simulate what it would be like in my mind.

Quote:

JacquesCousteau said:
What if the integration of language was the invention of ego?

I mean, in general, silencing one's inner voice is considered a method towards ego depletion... but if we didn't speak a language, would there BE an inner voice? If so, how can that be?

Just a random thought.. heh..




But what Im thinking, is that without a language there still is an inner voice... what would that voice sound like? im sure all the indians of that tribe that had no language still had egos. The ego would develop from social status, from how youre treated by your non speaking partisans.... from many things. But maybe their egos didnt govern them like ours do to us.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the brain is a matching machine
it matches what is arizing and what is falling away
it matches shapes and sequences.
a pattern seeker - an engram hunter
(to watch it work you might have to distract it with something like following the breath and then just keep the awareness alive)
what you call thinking in english is mostly echo matching, and not even real thought or new thought, or synthesis.




Yes, the brain is that, and so much more. But no matter how much i distract it or meditate, it will never be completely silenced. youre getting to ahead of me... im just talking about... how would it feel or sound to know no language.

Quote:

IamHungry said:
i dont think in language unless as was stated if i was to type my thoughts out or speak. when im lying in bed before i go to sleep a lot of my thinking is done in images, just like replaying the day in my head.

i dont think it would be TOO hard to live without language, so long as we werent completely dependent on other people.




sorry... but i dont believe this at all. when youre replaying the day in your head with images, youre still thinking... "yea... that sure did hurt" "hahaha that was funny" "that bitch, she had no right" "i never itched that badly before in my life" or whatever...

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
we would probably feel something was missing
I know I do when it ceases to function (level 5-6 on salvia).
but consciousness and thought continues.




I dunno... I dont think the language of your thoughts ceases function.. maybe its eclipsed by everything thats going on... Ive been to that level 6 with salvia many times, but while Im lying face first in a wall, flying through neon landscapes, Im still always thinking something in the back of all the noise.... namely "HOLY SHIT!"

Quote:

Strumpling said:
when I'm on mushrooms I tend to not think in English until my thoughts reach the point where "translation" is easy.




not with me... when im on mushrooms, wether small or heroic doses, my thoughts run like rivers... faster than i can catch up to them... all in English, the language i speak. Im sorry... but everyone is going to have SOMETHING in their head thats the language they speak.. wether you hear it or not...


--------------------
that there, thats not me. :noway:
i go where i please. :yesnod:
im not here.:shake:
this isnt happening.:nonono:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2936935 - 07/28/04 05:34 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

You have the right assumptions in your post, still I am sorry to reject you assumptions. It's very nescessary to calm your speakings while meditating. I used this to distinguish from internal to external (even that's not toally true). If you cease youre 'words' the visual images become more 'free'... unbound... external.
Language is like a trap from your left brain-half, because it is so specialised about this. I learned, that every brain-half struggles for full self-awareness, so your left bre?in-half tricks you while speaking all the time.
just shut it off :smile: And you get nearer to the connection of your both brainparts. You will notice that by some feeling of 'external' or holistic or simply 'different'.

In conclusion, you really get some more 'objective' or 'balanced' interpretation of what your brain is working on. That is really impressing and you will never miss it again :smile: !


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: pre-language [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2937033 - 07/28/04 06:01 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

then again,
thought in words that
you are not understanding
really points out that it is
just echoes.
not much more than electrical echoes in the brain.

go level 6 again to revisit
it takes you to pre-language.
even infants get echoes.

did you read the comic series "under water" by Chester Brown it's excellent. the kids are using sound to communicate with eachother but it is preverbal.


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Offlineplexus
holding thelight of athousand candles

Registered: 04/24/03
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Re: pre-language [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2937085 - 07/28/04 06:24 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
You have the right assumptions in your post, still I am sorry to reject you assumptions. It's very nescessary to calm your speakings while meditating. I used this to distinguish from internal to external (even that's not toally true). If you cease youre 'words' the visual images become more 'free'... unbound... external.
Language is like a trap from your left brain-half, because it is so specialised about this. I learned, that every brain-half struggles for full self-awareness, so your left bre?in-half tricks you while speaking all the time.
just shut it off :smile: And you get nearer to the connection of your both brainparts. You will notice that by some feeling of 'external' or holistic or simply 'different'.

In conclusion, you really get some more 'objective' or 'balanced' interpretation of what your brain is working on. That is really impressing and you will never miss it again :smile: !




. . . what the fuck are you talking about?

No shit its "necessary to calm your speakings while meditating"... thats the whole point of meditating... to shut your brain up so that you can see things clearer. Youre trying to teach me something i already know too well. but thats not what im talking about at all. DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT IM TRYING TO TALK ABOUT? im trying to talk about how a brain would express itself to yourself without language. How it did before there ever was language... Try to think of living your life up to this point... NEVER knowing a language. What would your everyday thoughts be? How would they form. How would you say to yourself "I want to pee." without the words "I" "want" "to" and "pee"? (that was a rhetorical question, so dont say something like "you woulnt have to say that, youd just pee) When you meditate, you think to yourself "Ok... Time to calm down and quiet all these voices in my head....OOOOMMMM." What if there were no voices to quiet? were there voices? voices without language?  meditate on that for an hour and get back to me

P.S. sorry if im sounding rude or mad in that post, im not trying to, but no ones really trying to grasp what im asking. I'm just trying to get back on the topic i brought up.


--------------------
that there, thats not me. :noway:
i go where i please. :yesnod:
im not here.:shake:
this isnt happening.:nonono:


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2937147 - 07/28/04 06:41 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I theorize that in that situation one would, literally, just act upon the instinct and find a good place to tinkle.

I know you didn't want to hear that answer, but it definitely ties in with what I was saying of a connection between ego and language (inwardly atleast, such as in the "I need to pee" situation)

Think about it.. before you say to yourself "I need to pee" you can FEEL that you need to urinate. There is a sensor embedded in your bladder that tells you, before you even think it.

So I theorize that the middle step would simply be removed. The situation would go directly from the sensor in your bladder going off to your instinctual association to urinate.

Think about gas in your car.. there is a little gauge that tells you you need gas, and THEN you think to yourself "I need gas." You already knew that before you thought it, because you know what the little gauge means already.

Am I makin' any sense?


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Offlineplexus
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Registered: 04/24/03
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Re: pre-language [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2937589 - 07/28/04 08:44 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

i knew i shouldntve used that analogy....

yea, i agree with all that, and i assumed all that before i said that pee thing... i wasnt talking about the instincts at all... i just used that cause it was a short sentance. im talking about just thoughts... everyday thoughts...

pretend your a monkey-man sitting under an apple tree for hours. would you just sit there and look at images flying through your head? no... there would be something going on inside besides that. you'd have thoughts... "what if i sat under that tree instead?" but they wouldnt be in the form of those english words... im talking just regular everyday thinking... i couldnt imagine going a single day without thinking one English word. Thats unfathomable to me.


--------------------
that there, thats not me. :noway:
i go where i please. :yesnod:
im not here.:shake:
this isnt happening.:nonono:


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InvisibleChronic7
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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2939416 - 07/29/04 06:47 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

It wouldve been emotions and instincts, like food, women, kill, love.....we probly used more telepathic stuff when we were that un advanced!


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________________________________


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: pre-language [Re: plexus]
    #2940573 - 07/29/04 02:44 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Uhm, I just saw, how unbelievabel it's for you to calm your words while meditating. Therefor I wanted to share my experiences. I understood what you were asking so I posted:
If you cease youre 'words' the >visual images< become more 'free'... unbound... external.
If there's no language, there is no voice, mainly >pictures<. And... you don't need words to quiet your voice :wink: You even can think in pictures.

redgreen: I don't speak of interpretations with words. I speak of interpretations made out of visuals (if you were refering to that).
but nice you remembered my 'level' :laugh: Have not done it since :laugh:

Preverbal sounds sound mostly nice to me and they come surely after visions, before language :grin: (no I hav not read it)

The preverbal of 'I need to PEE, but I am not sure where' is surely: 'Aaahh, eeeeh, eeeeeeeh, aaaaaaaaaah' (with a very stressed voice) :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlineplexus
holding thelight of athousand candles

Registered: 04/24/03
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Re: pre-language [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #2941545 - 07/29/04 07:03 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Uhm, I just saw, how unbelievabel it's for you to calm your words while meditating. Therefor I wanted to share my experiences. I understood what you were asking so I posted:
If you cease youre 'words' the >visual images< become more 'free'... unbound... external.
If there's no language, there is no voice, mainly >pictures<. And... you don't need words to quiet your voice :wink: You even can think in pictures.





ah jeez :shake:

calming your words is not unbelievable to me... not one bit.. you obviously read though my post a little too fast or something... maybe i worded it wrong. a calm ,quiet mind is one thing, one with no voice to begin with... is another. do you seriously think that early man went around in some meditative state? What Im trying to say is that i think they did have a voice... a language for themselves to understand their own thoughts. maybe not a vocal language, thats complex as our own, but something.

can you really imagine what your mind would be like day in and day out without knowing a language?

pre-language couldnt be pure emotion and instict, because that would mean that with language, came rational... and that cant be true. rational came before language. "whipe my ass with this leaf? or this thorny branch?" "hmmm... these thorns are sharp. they hurt." "this leaf feels good" "my ass is a sensitive area" "this leaf would feel better on my ass" (and yes, i know that it would be obvious to whipe with a leaf, but i didnt want to come up some complex thought pattern that a early human would actually have that would take a paragraph to type out)

what about deaf people. they know a language... sign language... but is their mind some sort of a silent void filled with images? is their mind any more calmed and quiet than our own? i seriously doubt it. i bet they have some way to interpret their thoughts to themselves. an inner-inner ear.


--------------------
that there, thats not me. :noway:
i go where i please. :yesnod:
im not here.:shake:
this isnt happening.:nonono:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: pre-language SALVIATRIP REPORT [Re: plexus]
    #2943647 - 07/30/04 07:57 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

This morning ? the living room was a good place for the combustion/inhalation of ~700 mics of salvinorin earlier put on cigarette paper.
In the 2 breaths that followed exhalation, speech did leave my thoughts and
Thinking continued into shapes and colors.
Some meaningless fragments of speech sounds dissipating and dream architectures formed of a place I have been ?it seemed -a million of times before which fits here always, and then words returned to me and I thought ?you will not remember this, it is incomprehensible, no images suffice, nor imageries compare?.
Not the souvenir ideas of tubes of plastic or extensions or imaginings of 4?d universes complexed or layered in with the familiar 3-d - none of it is near as full as being here, every expression of it lacks fullness, ?color?, lacks the vitality and the breath - the pervasive breath of it. Again, soon again, maybe tomorrow.


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Offlineplexus
holding thelight of athousand candles

Registered: 04/24/03
Posts: 1,290
Loc: texas
Last seen: 7 years, 7 days
Re: pre-language SALVIATRIP REPORT [Re: redgreenvines]
    #2944061 - 07/30/04 11:43 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
formed of a place I have been ?it seemed -a million of times before which fits here always




I know exactly what you mean......

My first breakthrough, i was greeted by a chorus of voices chanting "welcome back".

ever think that instead of regressing to a pre-language state of mind, you were trancending to a post-language state?

just a thought.


--------------------
that there, thats not me. :noway:
i go where i please. :yesnod:
im not here.:shake:
this isnt happening.:nonono:


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