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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Quote:
FG said:
The message that is being conveyed still remains perfectly in tact to anyone who is capable of decoding it.
Indeed it does! 
Same applies to metaphors and symbolic language too. 
That's what others are also saying.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
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Re: The language barrier [Re: blaze2]
#5310722 - 02/17/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I often find that speaking eloquently defines what I am trying to say much better than speaking crudely.
I agree with what Skorpivo said. We should be thankful for those who use language we are not familiar with. By being immersed in language we are not used to, we are forced to learn. I personally enjoy Skorpivo's posts, b/c I know I will increase my knowledge of the English language by reading them.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Redstorm]
#5310732 - 02/17/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I personally want to learn more languages, particularly ones from countries that have a different religion, because the beliefs of a culture are often encoded in its language. This is why Westerners adopted certain eastern terms like karma and samsara when Buddhism came to the West.
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Springs
Mine(d)


Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 330
Loc: sky hi
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5311224 - 02/17/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The language barrier i think is your own barriers, I mean if your open whats there there to limit language? Language is everywhere, whats not communicating?
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CerebralFlower
whats left?

Registered: 02/09/04
Posts: 1,326
Loc: only the truth is left
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Springs]
#5311294 - 02/17/06 05:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I agree alot. I notice this when i hear quotes or sayings or teachings from other religions, im like ahhh... thats sorta crap, then i understand the language difference and am like, oh yea, thast obvious
-------------------- God says dance with your heart And shake free of you desire Where theres a will theres always a way When you get confused listen to the music play
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Springs]
#5311670 - 02/17/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chud said: The language barrier i think is your own barriers, I mean if your open whats there there to limit language? Language is everywhere, whats not communicating?
Exactly! Whenever words are used here I'm not familiar with, I take the time to look them up in the dictionary so I can better understand what is being said.
On the flip side, when symbolic or metaphorical language is used, how many take the time, to learn the meaning, so they can better understand what one is wishing to communicate?
I think people put up barriers from both sides when they don't want to understand or relate to others. It's when the ego would rather judge the use of "uncommon words or metaphors and symbols" as the users way of putting themselves above others. Thats not true its just where they are comfortable at with personal self expression. With some stretching to understand, anyone can be there too.
Some choose to understand easily through relating and some choose to judge through separating. I agree it has little to do with language barriers and more to do with self imposed barriers to understand and relate to others at times. People act as if others may have cooties we can catch if we get to close to understanding them.
If anyone ever feels misunderstood here, I doubt it is ever because they are not communicating well. It's because whoever isn't understanding you isn't working hard enough too for whatever reason.
Maybe they are just to tired to think or learn something new and want it all to come easy.
Maybe they think, if they say they understand you, that means they are agreeing with something you are saying, so thats why they play dumb. They think if they say they understand you it somehow implies they agree with you too and it doesn't necessarily.
I can understand and relate to what it feels like to want to tell a lousy boss to shove it. It doesn't mean I agree with it being a good idea to act on. One can understand something and be in disagreement of actions taken on it at the same time.
Realizing that allows one to take their own barriers down. I think the barriers have little to do with language itself.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: The language barrier [Re: blaze2]
#5312314 - 02/17/06 11:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
blaze2 said: pretty much your right, doesnt make them less jackasses though.
People who use extended vocabularies equal jackasses. Excellent observation of reality. 
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allright the POINT of writing isnt in single words it is in coherent ideas, in the form of sentences.
In the form of sentences, right, which are composed of words, obviously. Different words have different meanings, which can be arranged in ways to convey a specific idea. Great. My "POINT" is that different words have different meanings. Thus, different arrangements of words convey different ideas. Agree or disagree? 
Quote:
the POINT of that sentence was to convey a feeling of being tired after work, both do it
Incorrect. Both sentences invoke entirely different meanings. "The sun whipped my ass today" is very vauge as to its meaning. It doesn't refer to work at all, in the first place, whereas the first one does. The word "exhausted" (which has an h in it, of course ), implies that one is more than just "tired". Tired and exhausted are two different things. The phrase "whipped my ass" is rather vauge and, without the proper context, could refer to a great variety of meanings. One can certainly create an image of the Sun with a cat-o'-nine-tails, tearing into your ass' skin and blood dripping everywhere. 
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, and while one is full of flowery language it doesnt make me sound any MORE tired
Tired means to grow weary or to be of diminished energy, but yet exhausted implies a consumption of all of one's energy, to be completely worn out, etc. It should be obvious that there is a distinct difference between that of tired and that of exhausted. Exhaustion, by the very nature of the definition of the word, does make one sound MORE tired, as it means that one is more tired than the word "tired" represents. And that is the "POINT".
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One of the first rules of writing however is that if simple will suffice then dont make it more complicated.
Who's rule is that? One of the first rules of writing, if I were to guess, would be to use language and grammar to communicate one's exact message and meaning, which is exactly what writing is to be. The language barrier exists because far too many people use language in an ambiguous, simple manner when simple does not suffice.
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Big words with specific meanings have their place but they are not nesecerry in most instances.
If they convey the exact meaning that they are intended to do, then they are necessary, regardless of whatever standard you use to judge what is or is not necessary. Another important rule of writing might be to ensure that one is spelling the words they use correctly.
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They add flair and are well used to make something stick out, but when a whole paragraph is chock full of them then there is nothing sticking out.
Some might not be interested in "flair", and are instead interested in effective communication of the exact idea being presented. Your arguement agansit utilizing an expansive vocabulary seems to be that it should only be used sparingly, but yet most people, when they write, are not interested in only being understood to a small degree. 
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Sure its always good to be able to add a few words to your memory banks, but the message he gave could have been conveyed without all that
I doubt it. His message would have not been represented with a simple "yo, G, vocab is fab, fo' shizzle". 
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Yes lack of language can be a barrier, but only to the person with the lack, the more versed fellow has the ability to show him their point/meaning/idea in terms they can understand, but when he chooses to hide it in big words he KNOWS he is cutting out a portion from understanding it.
The level of one's understanding of language defines that the ideas that one forms will utilize that level of understanding. The idea that is formed and conveyed is what it is because of the language that is used. You are promoting a "dumbing down" of one's expressive usage of one's language in order for those who remain ignorant to such an understanding of language can "understand". It clearly doesn't work like that. The idea exists in that language, and it cannot be equally represented in a simpler form of language. There is no reason to lower one's standards in order for any redneck who can barely read will "understand".
The fact that branches of science use complex and rather esoteric forms of language in order to represent the understanding of aspects of the universe that they are unearthing does not mean that they should exercise great restraint in the usage of such language in order for "everyone" to understand. The language they use has a purpose and an exact, precise meaning that no other word accurately represents, thus, the formation of the words they do use in the first place. It is no different in philosophy, nor should it be.
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the fact that you love your expression/art more than the understanding of the idea written therin, shows you dont really want to debate, you only want to hear yourself talk, and that is literay masterbation.
Incorrect. The fact that I fully embrace the conscious, creative usage of expression in a written format means that I am more focused on conveying the precise meaning that is being expressed in order to promote the exact understanding of what it is that I mean. If I only wanted "to hear myself talk", I wouldn't use this forum, but yet a program like Microsoft Word.
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IF the sword is magnificent then maybe it gets used as wall art or maybe in a statue, but its true purpose is lost.
Incorrect. Its true purpose is what the sword exists as. It represents what it is.
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It was a sword, it is meant to be used in battle. Art it remains, but it is now useless.
Your analogy is rather ineffective in the context of this discussion, as the people who are wielding their exquisite vocabulary are more than capable of doing so. The fact that others are getting their ribcages run through is a prime indicator that the sword was finely crafted and suits its purpose well.
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Words are meant to convey feelings if they are too unweildy for most to grasp then the use is lost and it is useless art. The whole POINT of this forum is discussion of ideas, and if that is true then useless art has no place in here. peace
Indeed, the entire "POINT" of this forum is the discussion and exchange of ideas. Thus, it is entirely necessary for one to represent their ideas accurately and precisely as possible. If someone who does not understand certain words that are being invoked by such a person, then it is their responsibility to take it upon themselves to learn those words, in order to be able to discuss the ideas.
If this was a direct communication between two individuals, who both have some idea of who the other is, then it would certainly be wise to manipulate the usage of one's language in order to best articulate one's idea for the other to be able to understand. The nature of a forum prevents this type of communication, thus it is essential to convey exactly the point that one is to convey in a manner that best represents that point, so that it is accessible.
Reducing one's language down to a common denominator in order for all to "understand" is exactly what prevents any understanding from blossoming forth from one's words. If certain individuals are too lazy to pull out a dictionary and learn something, then they certainly aren't very interested in understanding that which was expressed, now are they? Its as simple as that. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: Indeed it does! 
Same applies to metaphors and symbolic language too. 
It certainly does apply to metaphors and symbolic language as well. 
Quote:
That's what others are also saying.
In this thread, or in general? I think I know what you are referring to, but if it is being implied that I was responding to such an assertion, I never concerned myself with it. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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blaze2
The Witness


Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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dude you give no one any credit. You assume that if you dont spell it out no one will know what you mean. You feel a need to explain it all or else no one will fully understand. Certainly not a bad idea, of course. I on the other hand speak with less words leaving the mind to fill them in with ideas(much more powerful than definitions), and really man your little group are the only ones that claim not understanding, others may not agree but you particuarly Fireworks are probrobly worst at it. Spelling, grammer, vocabulary, while all good tools are not needed for every occasion. these tools arent important to me, the Idea is. That is what the tools are for you know. Expressing an idea, and just like we can all read english here, most can fill in blanks man. Maybe you cant. Maybe our brains are completely different. Maybe you just like the control, and sense of superiority though, how should I know?
The point is you could change just as easily as you assume I should change.
BTW if I was you and you were me, I'm sure you would have pushed the button on the redneck crack, but I'm not you so your OK. just so everyone's clear, If I'm a redneck then, then so is Willy Nelson, not bad company at all. Peace
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: The language barrier [Re: blaze2]
#5312466 - 02/18/06 12:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
blaze2 said: dude you give no one any credit.
Quote:
You assume that if you dont spell it out no one will know what you mean.
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You feel a need to explain it all or else no one will fully understand.
Quote:
and really man your little group are the only ones that claim not understanding, others may not agree but you particuarly Fireworks are probrobly worst at it.
I know that discussing the ideas that I have raised must be very difficult, so it is no surprise that you repeatedly discuss myself and things involving my character. I love being told what I do and do not do from someone who has no clue as to who I am or what I do.
No, really, the psychoanalysis is great! Granted, it is not why I come to this forum, and it certainly isn't alloted in the rules.
Quote:
Spelling, grammer, vocabulary, while all good tools are not needed for every occasion. these tools arent important to me, the Idea is.
Whoa, the first hint of actually discussing the idea that has been presented!
The assertion is that the tools by which one communicates are not necessary for every time one wishes to communicate. Regardless of how important the "Idea" is, it is necessary to properly convey it.
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That is what the tools are for you know. Expressing an idea, and just like we can all read english here, most can fill in blanks man.
In actuality, many regular posters here are not using English as their main language. Thus, the necessity of clearly and proficently expressing one's ideas in ways that remove traces of ambiguity and vaugeness, so that they can learn to use the English language to express themselves.
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Maybe you cant. Maybe our brains are completely different. Maybe you just like the control, and sense of superiority though, how should I know?
You shouldn't know, and you have no right to speculate about it in this thread.
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The point is you could change just as easily as you assume I should change.
No doubt, the possibillity of dumbing down my posts is always there. You have yet to effectively demonstrate why it is important or necessary to do so, or why exactly it is that we should limit our usage of language instead of encouraging others to use it.
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BTW if I was you and you were me, I'm sure you would have pushed the button on the redneck crack, but I'm not you so your OK. just so everyone's clear, If I'm a redneck then, then so is Willy Nelson, not bad company at all.
I'm curious as to why you would begin to associate my statement with yourself personally. Not everyone that uses this forum is interested in discussing the other person.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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I just added them to what you said about the use of uncommon words to fill it out. I know you are good with understanding/decoding metaphors and symbolic language.
Your use of the word decoding for understanding was symbolic language. I love it all myself because it makes me have to think or look up word definitions and it is one way we learn.
I can't imagine always reading stuff that is easily understood on the first pass. I like the stuff that makes me have to stop and go, "What are they trying to say?" "What does that word mean?"
Without those times, we would never have any questions to ask and we wouldn't learn much anything new.
Then I think of times, where some stuff I post with too much use of symbolic language has people telling me, I won't reach as many readers. I also remember reading an article on effective writing that said, you should word things so a twelve year old can understand you if you want to reach the most people. There is an argument for keeping it common and simple.
Granted, some of who use a lot of symbolic language or uncommon words may not reach as many readers, yet, there are times, they call for the reader to do the reaching and in that effort, they can get thier hands/minds on to knew things. Some challenges here and there are good for all us if we are to continue learning and growing together.
I suppose either extreme would become a bit much or dull. A nice blend of the common and uncommon and symbolic and literal keeps things flowing, fresh and lively.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: I also remember reading an article on effective writing that said, you should word things so a twelve year old can understand you if you want to reach the most people. There is an argument for keeping it common and simple.
Such would indicate an agenda beyond the accurate portrayal of one's meaning. If everyone targeted their usage of language towards the understanding of a twelve year old, then everyone would have a literacy level of a twelve year old.
There is certainly an arguement for keeping it common and simple, and I think it applies to situations where one's audience spans many demographics and contains large amounts of people - news articles, commercials (bolded to illustrate the concept of catering to the lowest common denominator here ), etc. I am upholding the notion that, in terms of this forum dealing with philosophy and spirituality, that a more advanced usage of langauge is not only appropriate, but often times necessary. Philosophy implies abstract concepts and complex organizations of thought. Spirituality implies concepts and ideas that are very difficult to appropriately convey through language - thus, skillful and articulate usage of language is even more beneficial, even if, ultimately, in vain. The only means we have to communicate in this situation is language. There is not a lot of context or common assumptions to rely upon either, thus, focusing directly on our usage of language and increasing our ability to exercise our understanding of language is essential, whether it is to convey literal, symbolic, or metaphorical thought. 
I think we are both in agreement Jiggy, which seems to be a rare occasion nowadays.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Yes, where I read that was related to writing news articles especially. And I agree, a forum such as philosphy and spirituality, one would expect the language to go beyond the common, literal and literacy of a 12 year old. It wouldn't be very stimulating here if it didn't.
Even if we don't agree much lately on this plane, it's all wash in another plane and in spirit, we are sympatico! That where my heart always is even if my mind appears to be elsewhere. 
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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