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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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The language barrier
#5308216 - 02/16/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Lately, I've found it harder and harder to communicate with certain people here. Not because either of us is close-minded or unwilling to listen -- it's just that we seem to speak in different languages. Well, not really "speak" so much as think. Many of the concepts I try to express are lost in translation. There are some who understand what I am saying, but they seem to already be of a similar mindset(and by mindset, I don't necessarily mean belief). There is just no easy way to convey certain metaphysical concepts. For example, when someone here says "we are all one," many of us intuitively understand what that means, but because our language has not equipped us with the tools to explain it clearly, many others here dismiss it as a meaningless concept.
It reminds me of one of the stories of the Buddha. As Siddhartha Gautama was meditating under the Bo tree, Mara sent several temptations to distract him from his quest for enlightenment. As his last resort, Mara told him that even if he reached enlightment, no one would be able to understand it. The Buddha replied "Some will understand."
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blaze2
The Witness


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Posts: 1,883
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Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5308284 - 02/16/06 07:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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dude when I saw this tread title I knew what you meant already. I get so frustrated with people who only tread known definations, as if our language is complete in its entirety. If you talk about something that has no defination there are two choices: use words with similiar or combined meanings, or create new words. Either of these are automaticly ignored by the "skeptics". I dont look at a defination of a word I look for the intent of the writer. the "skeptics" tend to call this mindreading/pyschic stuff and it only gets you further ignored.
I even called this out in an argument with someone a while back cant remember if it was fireworks or Swami(havent seen him in a while either hope hes doing alright), but anyways I said something liek we are arguing over semantics, and I seem to remember him saying something like how can you argue over the definition when its right here(insert quote from dictionary). The point was that I was using in a new way(couldnt tell you what it was), but he would have nothing of it, its a flawed argument from that point on. Very unreceptive way to converse. If seems like they use technicalitys to "win" arguments, and would rather have that than a discussion of a topic.
and thats why i get frustrated...
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5308567 - 02/16/06 08:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Great post.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5308668 - 02/16/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've seen someone say "they are you" in regards to another's percieved negativity/conflict towards someone else. This phrase seems to be a subtle variant of the "we are all one" cliche - but what does it really mean?
Underneath the metaphorical usage which seems to be a popular method of communicating intrapersonal information amongst the less academically erudite, there is an implicity grokked message that is explicitly translated into the metaphor or analogy.
In an actual sense, the person you are percieving to possess negativity is you, in the sense that those very qualities you percieve are not intrinsic to the person him/herself. Rather, they are projected from your own mind which, by various forms of measurement ommission, assessments, judgments and analysis drawn by your vast bank of memories and historical data, has evaluated their general disposition - all of which occurs at lightning like speed, and with variable accuracy depending on factors ranging from medium of communication, level of intimacy, the individual's prior experiences, etc.
This can be implicitly grokked by many folks, and those who have studied the sciences relevant to such matters, can explicitly communicate it without the need for metaphors or analogies. Although, I myself don't mind a good, colorful analogy here and there.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
This can be implicitly grokked by many folks, and those who have studied the sciences relevant to such matters, can explicitly communicate it without the need for metaphors or analogies. Although, I myself don't mind a good, colorful analogy here and there.
Are you saying science explains everything? If that is your mindset, then it no wonder I have trouble communicating with you. There are some things which are beyond science and language.
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ob1kinsmokey
Weekend Warrior


Registered: 01/01/06
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5308895 - 02/16/06 09:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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its funny that i saw this thread i was just thinking about this today.
you know how you have almost 2 minds if not more. one that you speak to yourself in with words almost, and one more feeling and graphic- like more picture imagery.
sometimes i think about things, and they are almost too huge to comprehend with my conscious mind set. like they are so deep, i can sense what i am thinking, but can come no where close to adressing it with my conscious speaking thought - so i go blank and have just the feeling.
and then it seems like those feelings, ones you cant even put to words in your mind, you end up trying to type out or speak to someone about...
so your true point and concept you want to be understood by others is never seen, because it can never come out how you want it to.
sometimes its as if i understand what i am thinking, but that it is so unbelievably deep and complex, that my mind, given the surroundings ive grown up in, cant handle it, or cant process it all.
even now ive blabbered on and im sure my main point wasnt made 
good thread
-------------------- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. - Carl Sagan I took a walk in the woods and came out taller than the trees - Henry Thoreau Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people. I really love butts.
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ob1kinsmokey
Weekend Warrior


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Posts: 145
Loc: Oregon (the good part)
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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very much so. ^^
there are things, experiences completely incomprhensable that go beyond even consciousness itself.
thoughts one cant even begin to ponder, regardless of how conscious one may be, even far beyond one who claims to be 100% conscious him/herself- which that person in its own is incomprehensable to all of us, let alone science.
-------------------- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. - Carl Sagan I took a walk in the woods and came out taller than the trees - Henry Thoreau Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people. I really love butts.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5308953 - 02/16/06 09:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Are you saying science explains everything?
Nope, not saying that at all. Believe it or not, I'm sticking to the general topic at hand.
But if you were to ask me if anything is beyond the reach of logic, science or knowledge, even in terms of potential, that's another story.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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I'd agree there's few things beyond the reach of knowledge, except God. As for logic, logic is just another language, and like any language, it has its limits. Same with science.
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blaze2
The Witness


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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5309034 - 02/16/06 10:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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ok skorp if you really want to convey your point your going to have to take down to a level where people who havent memorized the dictionary can understand. Seriously is there any reason to use the "grokked" I looked it up.
1 entry found for grokked. grok ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grk) tr.v. Slang grok?ked, grok?king, groks To understand profoundly through intuition or empathy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Coined by Robert A. Heinlein in his Stranger in a Strange Land.]
It was a word invented by a science fiction novelist in the last 50 or so years, not everyone is going to understand it.
It doesnt matter what YOUR vocabulary is, it matters what your READERS vocabulary is. If no one understands you, you only prove that the language barrier is real.
As far as a rebuttal for your post, I'd have to understand it first, and I dont have that sort of time. So I guess you win
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5309183 - 02/16/06 11:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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As for logic, logic is just another language, and like any language, it has its limits. Same with science.
I'm going to stick my neck out and state that there are far more many things which are logical than that which isn't - and that which isn't, is only due incomplete knowledge. Logic is indeed a language, but if you consider the fundamental principle of nature from which it stems and by which it is guided, you might see that logic is a very universal language - much like math.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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blaze2
The Witness


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Logic? what is logical? what youve already seen and experianced? Is it cause and effect? Can everything be explained through logic? Logic is limited to your own perspective. Logical to me and you can be two entirely different things.
Quantum mechanics has no logic but is very real.
Logic is just a word we use to say we can explain something, but we know we will never understand everything, so to say its universal seems a bit strong does it not?
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: As for logic, logic is just another language, and like any language, it has its limits. Same with science.
I'm going to stick my neck out and state that there are far more many things which are logical than that which isn't - and that which isn't, is only due incomplete knowledge. Logic is indeed a language, but if you consider the fundamental principle of nature from which it stems and by which it is guided, you might see that logic is a very universal language - much like math.
Deductive logic is much like math. If A then B, A, therefore B. But inductive logic, which is used far more often, is much trickier, and much more open to interpretation. That's why you can have several members of this forum, all of whom are very logical, disagreeing fundamentally on several issues. Logic certainly cannot explain the transcendent. This is why many who believe only in logic do not even believe in the transcendent.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: The language barrier [Re: blaze2]
#5309241 - 02/16/06 11:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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ok skorp if you really want to convey your point your going to have to take down to a level where people who havent memorized the dictionary can understand. Seriously is there any reason to use the "grokked" I looked it up.
1 entry found for grokked. grok ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grk) tr.v. Slang grok?ked, grok?king, groks To understand profoundly through intuition or empathy.
I, for one, never found myself in the boat amongst those who dissented other's use of exquisite lexicon and magniloquent command of the English language. Being the reader I am and one who has always enjoyed Literature classes, I've always found myself admiring those with eloquent verbosity and adroit dominion of sophisticated vocabulary.
Words are the tools of thought, my friend. Indeed, language can be a barrier - but so can the lack of language. Can you build a great, towering skyscraper or mansion with only the bare essentials, e.g., a hammer and some nails? Of course not. The greater your vocabulary, the greater a thinker you become and the greater a communicator you mature into. And that in itself, opens a door for success in many a myriad of forms.
You should thank those who care enough to excercise heightened vocabulary and adroit communication, for they are doing you a favor. The more you surround yourself with such intelligence, the more you do yourself a favor, for you are in effect, creating a beneficial effect upon yourself. I, for one, appreciate the likes of MarkostheGnostic, who is nothing short of a wizard in language, and if memory serves correct, it is he who I learned the word "Grok" from. 
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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blaze2
The Witness


Registered: 12/20/02
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thats all perfectly right. I read voraciously(see I got a vocabulary too), but simply using big words, even using them right, doesnt make you smarter than anyone else. Booksmart, but not real world smart. I am booksmart(tested IQ 4 times highest was 152 lowest 134), I understood most of your post(like I said tho there are some foggy parts though), even though I had never head alot of those words especially not in that small of a space.
heres my point. Why say "I exausted myself laboring under the scorching sun today", when a simple "man the sun whipped my ass today"gets the same point across. Language is a tool, when you talk like that man its like taking a jackhammer to a finishing nail. try not to overdue it. Yes there is a place for the knowledge you have, but a post on a message board, probrobly not. I garuntee you that most people will have a harder time reading that post than I did.
If no one understands you then its nothign more than intellectualy jacking off. peace
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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TacticalBongRip
Curious Observer


Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 527
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Re: The language barrier [Re: blaze2]
#5309507 - 02/17/06 04:29 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm gonna have to disagree with you blaze2. The purpose of speaking with a large vocabulary is to better describe one's thoughts. Although the audience may not always understand, I agree that it is a good thing for them. It encourages them to seek meaning in the words and may give them something to improve upon.
I am much like you blaze where as I don't understand the meanings of some of the words Skorpivo uses, but I feel I grasp much of what he is trying to convey. It is a good thing he has done, and I can only hope that I can continue to expose my mind to his thoughts and vocabulary , as well as those equally gifted in the using the tools of language.
My respect for Skorpivo is deep, but it is not merely because of his use of the english language but more because of the messages he is sending out. Mad props.
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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The more a color map is stretched, the easier it gets to pinpoint the exact shade of color sought.
The story about two blind men describing the elephant by one touching its snable and another touching a foot, says a lot about logic. We don't know very much, do we? Heheh, I don't at least.
Edited by dr_mandelbrot (02/17/06 04:40 AM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: The language barrier [Re: blaze2]
#5310025 - 02/17/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
blaze2 said: thats all perfectly right. I read voraciously(see I got a vocabulary too), but simply using big words, even using them right, doesnt make you smarter than anyone else.
Is this being proposed as a reason to not effectively convey one's meaning in a form that more clearly, precisely represents and transmits that meaning? One's vocabulary is not a standard by which to compare the intelligence of various people, but intelligence is certainly responsible for one's vocabulary.
Some choose to communicate in the manner they see fit with no consideration of whether or not it "makes them smarter" than others. The fact that others think through such a lens lies seperate.
Quote:
heres my point. Why say "I exausted myself laboring under the scorching sun today", when a simple "man the sun whipped my ass today"gets the same point across.
Personally, I would prefer the former statement to represent the message in most situations. I consider language to be an expression of myself, and I find value in investing creativity in my expressions. Communication becomes more enjoyable, vibrant, and meaningful when I invoke my imagination in the process.
The simple fact is that both phrases do not convey the same message. Each word implies a unique meaning.
Quote:
Yes there is a place for the knowledge you have, but a post on a message board, probrobly not. I garuntee you that most people will have a harder time reading that post than I did.
I appreciate the decree of proper etiquette that one must follow, but yet, taking into consideration the nature and content of the considerable amount of posts that I have read in the forum over the last four years, it is quite common for a numerous amount of participants to express themselves in similar manners. As Skorpivo mentioned, lack of language is a barrier, and it would be a great benefit for anyone who struggles with the proper understanding of his (or similar) posts to acquire the necessary means to understand.
Knowledge is power; an increase in any sort of understanding is a more complete realization of reality itself.
Quote:
If no one understands you then its nothign more than intellectualy jacking off. peace
I beg to differ. The message that is being conveyed still remains perfectly in tact to anyone who is capable of decoding it. Even if aeons pass and the content is destroyed and no one has ever been able to access it, the expression was still brought into existance, and the act of expression is powerful, if even for oneself. Expression is art, and I'd consider that there are numerous paintings that may have never been deciphered. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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TacticalBongRip
Curious Observer


Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 527
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I'll smoke to that , Fireworks_God 8)
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blaze2
The Witness


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Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Quote:
Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
blaze2 said: thats all perfectly right. I read voraciously(see I got a vocabulary too), but simply using big words, even using them right, doesnt make you smarter than anyone else.
Is this being proposed as a reason to not effectively convey one's meaning in a form that more clearly, precisely represents and transmits that meaning? One's vocabulary is not a standard by which to compare the intelligence of various people, but intelligence is certainly responsible for one's vocabulary.
Some choose to communicate in the manner they see fit with no consideration of whether or not it "makes them smarter" than others. The fact that others think through such a lens lies seperate.
pretty much your right, doesnt make them less jackasses though.
Quote:
Quote:
heres my point. Why say "I exausted myself laboring under the scorching sun today", when a simple "man the sun whipped my ass today"gets the same point across.
Personally, I would prefer the former statement to represent the message in most situations. I consider language to be an expression of myself, and I find value in investing creativity in my expressions. Communication becomes more enjoyable, vibrant, and meaningful when I invoke my imagination in the process.
The simple fact is that both phrases do not convey the same message. Each word implies a unique meaning.
Man you just love to argue huh? allright the POINT of writing isnt in single words it is in coherent ideas, in the form of sentences. the POINT of that sentence was to convey a feeling of being tired after work, both do it, and while one is full of flowery language it doesnt make me sound any MORE tired, in fact if someone said that after work I woudnt think they had worked all that hard, but its just one example. I never said one should ONLY stick to simple words. One of the first rules of writing however is that if simple will suffice then dont make it more complicated.
Big words with specific meanings have their place but they are not nesecerry in most instances. They add flair and are well used to make something stick out, but when a whole paragraph is chock full of them then there is nothing sticking out.
Quote:
Quote:
Yes there is a place for the knowledge you have, but a post on a message board, probrobly not. I garuntee you that most people will have a harder time reading that post than I did.
I appreciate the decree of proper etiquette that one must follow, but yet, taking into consideration the nature and content of the considerable amount of posts that I have read in the forum over the last four years, it is quite common for a numerous amount of participants to express themselves in similar manners. As Skorpivo mentioned, lack of language is a barrier, and it would be a great benefit for anyone who struggles with the proper understanding of his (or similar) posts to acquire the necessary means to understand.
Knowledge is power; an increase in any sort of understanding is a more complete realization of reality itself.
Sure its always good to be able to add a few words to your memory banks, but the message he gave could have been conveyed without all that, AND most everyone would have understood him. Yes lack of language can be a barrier, but only to the person with the lack, the more versed fellow has the ability to show him their point/meaning/idea in terms they can understand, but when he chooses to hide it in big words he KNOWS he is cutting out a portion from understanding it.
Quote:
Quote:
If no one understands you then its nothign more than intellectualy jacking off. peace
I beg to differ. The message that is being conveyed still remains perfectly in tact to anyone who is capable of decoding it. Even if aeons pass and the content is destroyed and no one has ever been able to access it, the expression was still brought into existance, and the act of expression is powerful, if even for oneself. Expression is art, and I'd consider that there are numerous paintings that may have never been deciphered. 
 Peace.
the fact that you love your expression/art more than the understanding of the idea written therin, shows you dont really want to debate, you only want to hear yourself talk, and that is literay masterbation.
I Know writing is an art, so are blacksmiths. Say a black smith makes a sword too big to be weilded, now that is useless art. IF the sword is magnificent then maybe it gets used as wall art or maybe in a statue, but its true purpose is lost. It was a sword, it is meant to be used in battle. Art it remains, but it is now useless.
Words are meant to convey feelings if they are too unweildy for most to grasp then the use is lost and it is useless art. The whole POINT of this forum is discussion of ideas, and if that is true then useless art has no place in here. peace
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Quote:
FG said:
The message that is being conveyed still remains perfectly in tact to anyone who is capable of decoding it.
Indeed it does! 
Same applies to metaphors and symbolic language too. 
That's what others are also saying.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: The language barrier [Re: blaze2]
#5310722 - 02/17/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I often find that speaking eloquently defines what I am trying to say much better than speaking crudely.
I agree with what Skorpivo said. We should be thankful for those who use language we are not familiar with. By being immersed in language we are not used to, we are forced to learn. I personally enjoy Skorpivo's posts, b/c I know I will increase my knowledge of the English language by reading them.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Redstorm]
#5310732 - 02/17/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I personally want to learn more languages, particularly ones from countries that have a different religion, because the beliefs of a culture are often encoded in its language. This is why Westerners adopted certain eastern terms like karma and samsara when Buddhism came to the West.
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Springs
Mine(d)


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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5311224 - 02/17/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The language barrier i think is your own barriers, I mean if your open whats there there to limit language? Language is everywhere, whats not communicating?
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CerebralFlower
whats left?

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Re: The language barrier [Re: Springs]
#5311294 - 02/17/06 05:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I agree alot. I notice this when i hear quotes or sayings or teachings from other religions, im like ahhh... thats sorta crap, then i understand the language difference and am like, oh yea, thast obvious
-------------------- God says dance with your heart And shake free of you desire Where theres a will theres always a way When you get confused listen to the music play
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Springs]
#5311670 - 02/17/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Chud said: The language barrier i think is your own barriers, I mean if your open whats there there to limit language? Language is everywhere, whats not communicating?
Exactly! Whenever words are used here I'm not familiar with, I take the time to look them up in the dictionary so I can better understand what is being said.
On the flip side, when symbolic or metaphorical language is used, how many take the time, to learn the meaning, so they can better understand what one is wishing to communicate?
I think people put up barriers from both sides when they don't want to understand or relate to others. It's when the ego would rather judge the use of "uncommon words or metaphors and symbols" as the users way of putting themselves above others. Thats not true its just where they are comfortable at with personal self expression. With some stretching to understand, anyone can be there too.
Some choose to understand easily through relating and some choose to judge through separating. I agree it has little to do with language barriers and more to do with self imposed barriers to understand and relate to others at times. People act as if others may have cooties we can catch if we get to close to understanding them.
If anyone ever feels misunderstood here, I doubt it is ever because they are not communicating well. It's because whoever isn't understanding you isn't working hard enough too for whatever reason.
Maybe they are just to tired to think or learn something new and want it all to come easy.
Maybe they think, if they say they understand you, that means they are agreeing with something you are saying, so thats why they play dumb. They think if they say they understand you it somehow implies they agree with you too and it doesn't necessarily.
I can understand and relate to what it feels like to want to tell a lousy boss to shove it. It doesn't mean I agree with it being a good idea to act on. One can understand something and be in disagreement of actions taken on it at the same time.
Realizing that allows one to take their own barriers down. I think the barriers have little to do with language itself.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: The language barrier [Re: blaze2]
#5312314 - 02/17/06 11:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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blaze2 said: pretty much your right, doesnt make them less jackasses though.
People who use extended vocabularies equal jackasses. Excellent observation of reality. 
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allright the POINT of writing isnt in single words it is in coherent ideas, in the form of sentences.
In the form of sentences, right, which are composed of words, obviously. Different words have different meanings, which can be arranged in ways to convey a specific idea. Great. My "POINT" is that different words have different meanings. Thus, different arrangements of words convey different ideas. Agree or disagree? 
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the POINT of that sentence was to convey a feeling of being tired after work, both do it
Incorrect. Both sentences invoke entirely different meanings. "The sun whipped my ass today" is very vauge as to its meaning. It doesn't refer to work at all, in the first place, whereas the first one does. The word "exhausted" (which has an h in it, of course ), implies that one is more than just "tired". Tired and exhausted are two different things. The phrase "whipped my ass" is rather vauge and, without the proper context, could refer to a great variety of meanings. One can certainly create an image of the Sun with a cat-o'-nine-tails, tearing into your ass' skin and blood dripping everywhere. 
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, and while one is full of flowery language it doesnt make me sound any MORE tired
Tired means to grow weary or to be of diminished energy, but yet exhausted implies a consumption of all of one's energy, to be completely worn out, etc. It should be obvious that there is a distinct difference between that of tired and that of exhausted. Exhaustion, by the very nature of the definition of the word, does make one sound MORE tired, as it means that one is more tired than the word "tired" represents. And that is the "POINT".
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One of the first rules of writing however is that if simple will suffice then dont make it more complicated.
Who's rule is that? One of the first rules of writing, if I were to guess, would be to use language and grammar to communicate one's exact message and meaning, which is exactly what writing is to be. The language barrier exists because far too many people use language in an ambiguous, simple manner when simple does not suffice.
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Big words with specific meanings have their place but they are not nesecerry in most instances.
If they convey the exact meaning that they are intended to do, then they are necessary, regardless of whatever standard you use to judge what is or is not necessary. Another important rule of writing might be to ensure that one is spelling the words they use correctly.
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They add flair and are well used to make something stick out, but when a whole paragraph is chock full of them then there is nothing sticking out.
Some might not be interested in "flair", and are instead interested in effective communication of the exact idea being presented. Your arguement agansit utilizing an expansive vocabulary seems to be that it should only be used sparingly, but yet most people, when they write, are not interested in only being understood to a small degree. 
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Sure its always good to be able to add a few words to your memory banks, but the message he gave could have been conveyed without all that
I doubt it. His message would have not been represented with a simple "yo, G, vocab is fab, fo' shizzle". 
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Yes lack of language can be a barrier, but only to the person with the lack, the more versed fellow has the ability to show him their point/meaning/idea in terms they can understand, but when he chooses to hide it in big words he KNOWS he is cutting out a portion from understanding it.
The level of one's understanding of language defines that the ideas that one forms will utilize that level of understanding. The idea that is formed and conveyed is what it is because of the language that is used. You are promoting a "dumbing down" of one's expressive usage of one's language in order for those who remain ignorant to such an understanding of language can "understand". It clearly doesn't work like that. The idea exists in that language, and it cannot be equally represented in a simpler form of language. There is no reason to lower one's standards in order for any redneck who can barely read will "understand".
The fact that branches of science use complex and rather esoteric forms of language in order to represent the understanding of aspects of the universe that they are unearthing does not mean that they should exercise great restraint in the usage of such language in order for "everyone" to understand. The language they use has a purpose and an exact, precise meaning that no other word accurately represents, thus, the formation of the words they do use in the first place. It is no different in philosophy, nor should it be.
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the fact that you love your expression/art more than the understanding of the idea written therin, shows you dont really want to debate, you only want to hear yourself talk, and that is literay masterbation.
Incorrect. The fact that I fully embrace the conscious, creative usage of expression in a written format means that I am more focused on conveying the precise meaning that is being expressed in order to promote the exact understanding of what it is that I mean. If I only wanted "to hear myself talk", I wouldn't use this forum, but yet a program like Microsoft Word.
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IF the sword is magnificent then maybe it gets used as wall art or maybe in a statue, but its true purpose is lost.
Incorrect. Its true purpose is what the sword exists as. It represents what it is.
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It was a sword, it is meant to be used in battle. Art it remains, but it is now useless.
Your analogy is rather ineffective in the context of this discussion, as the people who are wielding their exquisite vocabulary are more than capable of doing so. The fact that others are getting their ribcages run through is a prime indicator that the sword was finely crafted and suits its purpose well.
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Words are meant to convey feelings if they are too unweildy for most to grasp then the use is lost and it is useless art. The whole POINT of this forum is discussion of ideas, and if that is true then useless art has no place in here. peace
Indeed, the entire "POINT" of this forum is the discussion and exchange of ideas. Thus, it is entirely necessary for one to represent their ideas accurately and precisely as possible. If someone who does not understand certain words that are being invoked by such a person, then it is their responsibility to take it upon themselves to learn those words, in order to be able to discuss the ideas.
If this was a direct communication between two individuals, who both have some idea of who the other is, then it would certainly be wise to manipulate the usage of one's language in order to best articulate one's idea for the other to be able to understand. The nature of a forum prevents this type of communication, thus it is essential to convey exactly the point that one is to convey in a manner that best represents that point, so that it is accessible.
Reducing one's language down to a common denominator in order for all to "understand" is exactly what prevents any understanding from blossoming forth from one's words. If certain individuals are too lazy to pull out a dictionary and learn something, then they certainly aren't very interested in understanding that which was expressed, now are they? Its as simple as that. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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gettinjiggywithit said: Indeed it does! 
Same applies to metaphors and symbolic language too. 
It certainly does apply to metaphors and symbolic language as well. 
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That's what others are also saying.
In this thread, or in general? I think I know what you are referring to, but if it is being implied that I was responding to such an assertion, I never concerned myself with it. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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blaze2
The Witness


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dude you give no one any credit. You assume that if you dont spell it out no one will know what you mean. You feel a need to explain it all or else no one will fully understand. Certainly not a bad idea, of course. I on the other hand speak with less words leaving the mind to fill them in with ideas(much more powerful than definitions), and really man your little group are the only ones that claim not understanding, others may not agree but you particuarly Fireworks are probrobly worst at it. Spelling, grammer, vocabulary, while all good tools are not needed for every occasion. these tools arent important to me, the Idea is. That is what the tools are for you know. Expressing an idea, and just like we can all read english here, most can fill in blanks man. Maybe you cant. Maybe our brains are completely different. Maybe you just like the control, and sense of superiority though, how should I know?
The point is you could change just as easily as you assume I should change.
BTW if I was you and you were me, I'm sure you would have pushed the button on the redneck crack, but I'm not you so your OK. just so everyone's clear, If I'm a redneck then, then so is Willy Nelson, not bad company at all. Peace
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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fireworks_god
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Re: The language barrier [Re: blaze2]
#5312466 - 02/18/06 12:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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blaze2 said: dude you give no one any credit.
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You assume that if you dont spell it out no one will know what you mean.
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You feel a need to explain it all or else no one will fully understand.
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and really man your little group are the only ones that claim not understanding, others may not agree but you particuarly Fireworks are probrobly worst at it.
I know that discussing the ideas that I have raised must be very difficult, so it is no surprise that you repeatedly discuss myself and things involving my character. I love being told what I do and do not do from someone who has no clue as to who I am or what I do.
No, really, the psychoanalysis is great! Granted, it is not why I come to this forum, and it certainly isn't alloted in the rules.
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Spelling, grammer, vocabulary, while all good tools are not needed for every occasion. these tools arent important to me, the Idea is.
Whoa, the first hint of actually discussing the idea that has been presented!
The assertion is that the tools by which one communicates are not necessary for every time one wishes to communicate. Regardless of how important the "Idea" is, it is necessary to properly convey it.
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That is what the tools are for you know. Expressing an idea, and just like we can all read english here, most can fill in blanks man.
In actuality, many regular posters here are not using English as their main language. Thus, the necessity of clearly and proficently expressing one's ideas in ways that remove traces of ambiguity and vaugeness, so that they can learn to use the English language to express themselves.
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Maybe you cant. Maybe our brains are completely different. Maybe you just like the control, and sense of superiority though, how should I know?
You shouldn't know, and you have no right to speculate about it in this thread.
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The point is you could change just as easily as you assume I should change.
No doubt, the possibillity of dumbing down my posts is always there. You have yet to effectively demonstrate why it is important or necessary to do so, or why exactly it is that we should limit our usage of language instead of encouraging others to use it.
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BTW if I was you and you were me, I'm sure you would have pushed the button on the redneck crack, but I'm not you so your OK. just so everyone's clear, If I'm a redneck then, then so is Willy Nelson, not bad company at all.
I'm curious as to why you would begin to associate my statement with yourself personally. Not everyone that uses this forum is interested in discussing the other person.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
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I just added them to what you said about the use of uncommon words to fill it out. I know you are good with understanding/decoding metaphors and symbolic language.
Your use of the word decoding for understanding was symbolic language. I love it all myself because it makes me have to think or look up word definitions and it is one way we learn.
I can't imagine always reading stuff that is easily understood on the first pass. I like the stuff that makes me have to stop and go, "What are they trying to say?" "What does that word mean?"
Without those times, we would never have any questions to ask and we wouldn't learn much anything new.
Then I think of times, where some stuff I post with too much use of symbolic language has people telling me, I won't reach as many readers. I also remember reading an article on effective writing that said, you should word things so a twelve year old can understand you if you want to reach the most people. There is an argument for keeping it common and simple.
Granted, some of who use a lot of symbolic language or uncommon words may not reach as many readers, yet, there are times, they call for the reader to do the reaching and in that effort, they can get thier hands/minds on to knew things. Some challenges here and there are good for all us if we are to continue learning and growing together.
I suppose either extreme would become a bit much or dull. A nice blend of the common and uncommon and symbolic and literal keeps things flowing, fresh and lively.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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fireworks_god
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gettinjiggywithit said: I also remember reading an article on effective writing that said, you should word things so a twelve year old can understand you if you want to reach the most people. There is an argument for keeping it common and simple.
Such would indicate an agenda beyond the accurate portrayal of one's meaning. If everyone targeted their usage of language towards the understanding of a twelve year old, then everyone would have a literacy level of a twelve year old.
There is certainly an arguement for keeping it common and simple, and I think it applies to situations where one's audience spans many demographics and contains large amounts of people - news articles, commercials (bolded to illustrate the concept of catering to the lowest common denominator here ), etc. I am upholding the notion that, in terms of this forum dealing with philosophy and spirituality, that a more advanced usage of langauge is not only appropriate, but often times necessary. Philosophy implies abstract concepts and complex organizations of thought. Spirituality implies concepts and ideas that are very difficult to appropriately convey through language - thus, skillful and articulate usage of language is even more beneficial, even if, ultimately, in vain. The only means we have to communicate in this situation is language. There is not a lot of context or common assumptions to rely upon either, thus, focusing directly on our usage of language and increasing our ability to exercise our understanding of language is essential, whether it is to convey literal, symbolic, or metaphorical thought. 
I think we are both in agreement Jiggy, which seems to be a rare occasion nowadays.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
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Yes, where I read that was related to writing news articles especially. And I agree, a forum such as philosphy and spirituality, one would expect the language to go beyond the common, literal and literacy of a 12 year old. It wouldn't be very stimulating here if it didn't.
Even if we don't agree much lately on this plane, it's all wash in another plane and in spirit, we are sympatico! That where my heart always is even if my mind appears to be elsewhere. 
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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