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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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The language barrier
#5308216 - 02/16/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Lately, I've found it harder and harder to communicate with certain people here. Not because either of us is close-minded or unwilling to listen -- it's just that we seem to speak in different languages. Well, not really "speak" so much as think. Many of the concepts I try to express are lost in translation. There are some who understand what I am saying, but they seem to already be of a similar mindset(and by mindset, I don't necessarily mean belief). There is just no easy way to convey certain metaphysical concepts. For example, when someone here says "we are all one," many of us intuitively understand what that means, but because our language has not equipped us with the tools to explain it clearly, many others here dismiss it as a meaningless concept.
It reminds me of one of the stories of the Buddha. As Siddhartha Gautama was meditating under the Bo tree, Mara sent several temptations to distract him from his quest for enlightenment. As his last resort, Mara told him that even if he reached enlightment, no one would be able to understand it. The Buddha replied "Some will understand."
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blaze2
The Witness


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Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5308284 - 02/16/06 07:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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dude when I saw this tread title I knew what you meant already. I get so frustrated with people who only tread known definations, as if our language is complete in its entirety. If you talk about something that has no defination there are two choices: use words with similiar or combined meanings, or create new words. Either of these are automaticly ignored by the "skeptics". I dont look at a defination of a word I look for the intent of the writer. the "skeptics" tend to call this mindreading/pyschic stuff and it only gets you further ignored.
I even called this out in an argument with someone a while back cant remember if it was fireworks or Swami(havent seen him in a while either hope hes doing alright), but anyways I said something liek we are arguing over semantics, and I seem to remember him saying something like how can you argue over the definition when its right here(insert quote from dictionary). The point was that I was using in a new way(couldnt tell you what it was), but he would have nothing of it, its a flawed argument from that point on. Very unreceptive way to converse. If seems like they use technicalitys to "win" arguments, and would rather have that than a discussion of a topic.
and thats why i get frustrated...
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5308567 - 02/16/06 08:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Great post.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5308668 - 02/16/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I've seen someone say "they are you" in regards to another's percieved negativity/conflict towards someone else. This phrase seems to be a subtle variant of the "we are all one" cliche - but what does it really mean?
Underneath the metaphorical usage which seems to be a popular method of communicating intrapersonal information amongst the less academically erudite, there is an implicity grokked message that is explicitly translated into the metaphor or analogy.
In an actual sense, the person you are percieving to possess negativity is you, in the sense that those very qualities you percieve are not intrinsic to the person him/herself. Rather, they are projected from your own mind which, by various forms of measurement ommission, assessments, judgments and analysis drawn by your vast bank of memories and historical data, has evaluated their general disposition - all of which occurs at lightning like speed, and with variable accuracy depending on factors ranging from medium of communication, level of intimacy, the individual's prior experiences, etc.
This can be implicitly grokked by many folks, and those who have studied the sciences relevant to such matters, can explicitly communicate it without the need for metaphors or analogies. Although, I myself don't mind a good, colorful analogy here and there.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
This can be implicitly grokked by many folks, and those who have studied the sciences relevant to such matters, can explicitly communicate it without the need for metaphors or analogies. Although, I myself don't mind a good, colorful analogy here and there.
Are you saying science explains everything? If that is your mindset, then it no wonder I have trouble communicating with you. There are some things which are beyond science and language.
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ob1kinsmokey
Weekend Warrior


Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Oregon (the good part)
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5308895 - 02/16/06 09:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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its funny that i saw this thread i was just thinking about this today.
you know how you have almost 2 minds if not more. one that you speak to yourself in with words almost, and one more feeling and graphic- like more picture imagery.
sometimes i think about things, and they are almost too huge to comprehend with my conscious mind set. like they are so deep, i can sense what i am thinking, but can come no where close to adressing it with my conscious speaking thought - so i go blank and have just the feeling.
and then it seems like those feelings, ones you cant even put to words in your mind, you end up trying to type out or speak to someone about...
so your true point and concept you want to be understood by others is never seen, because it can never come out how you want it to.
sometimes its as if i understand what i am thinking, but that it is so unbelievably deep and complex, that my mind, given the surroundings ive grown up in, cant handle it, or cant process it all.
even now ive blabbered on and im sure my main point wasnt made 
good thread
-------------------- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. - Carl Sagan I took a walk in the woods and came out taller than the trees - Henry Thoreau Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people. I really love butts.
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ob1kinsmokey
Weekend Warrior


Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 145
Loc: Oregon (the good part)
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
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very much so. ^^
there are things, experiences completely incomprhensable that go beyond even consciousness itself.
thoughts one cant even begin to ponder, regardless of how conscious one may be, even far beyond one who claims to be 100% conscious him/herself- which that person in its own is incomprehensable to all of us, let alone science.
-------------------- Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. - Carl Sagan I took a walk in the woods and came out taller than the trees - Henry Thoreau Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people. I really love butts.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5308953 - 02/16/06 09:58 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Are you saying science explains everything?
Nope, not saying that at all. Believe it or not, I'm sticking to the general topic at hand.
But if you were to ask me if anything is beyond the reach of logic, science or knowledge, even in terms of potential, that's another story.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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I'd agree there's few things beyond the reach of knowledge, except God. As for logic, logic is just another language, and like any language, it has its limits. Same with science.
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blaze2
The Witness


Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5309034 - 02/16/06 10:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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ok skorp if you really want to convey your point your going to have to take down to a level where people who havent memorized the dictionary can understand. Seriously is there any reason to use the "grokked" I looked it up.
1 entry found for grokked. grok ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grk) tr.v. Slang grok?ked, grok?king, groks To understand profoundly through intuition or empathy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [Coined by Robert A. Heinlein in his Stranger in a Strange Land.]
It was a word invented by a science fiction novelist in the last 50 or so years, not everyone is going to understand it.
It doesnt matter what YOUR vocabulary is, it matters what your READERS vocabulary is. If no one understands you, you only prove that the language barrier is real.
As far as a rebuttal for your post, I'd have to understand it first, and I dont have that sort of time. So I guess you win
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: The language barrier [Re: Silversoul]
#5309183 - 02/16/06 11:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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As for logic, logic is just another language, and like any language, it has its limits. Same with science.
I'm going to stick my neck out and state that there are far more many things which are logical than that which isn't - and that which isn't, is only due incomplete knowledge. Logic is indeed a language, but if you consider the fundamental principle of nature from which it stems and by which it is guided, you might see that logic is a very universal language - much like math.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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blaze2
The Witness


Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Logic? what is logical? what youve already seen and experianced? Is it cause and effect? Can everything be explained through logic? Logic is limited to your own perspective. Logical to me and you can be two entirely different things.
Quantum mechanics has no logic but is very real.
Logic is just a word we use to say we can explain something, but we know we will never understand everything, so to say its universal seems a bit strong does it not?
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: As for logic, logic is just another language, and like any language, it has its limits. Same with science.
I'm going to stick my neck out and state that there are far more many things which are logical than that which isn't - and that which isn't, is only due incomplete knowledge. Logic is indeed a language, but if you consider the fundamental principle of nature from which it stems and by which it is guided, you might see that logic is a very universal language - much like math.
Deductive logic is much like math. If A then B, A, therefore B. But inductive logic, which is used far more often, is much trickier, and much more open to interpretation. That's why you can have several members of this forum, all of whom are very logical, disagreeing fundamentally on several issues. Logic certainly cannot explain the transcendent. This is why many who believe only in logic do not even believe in the transcendent.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: The language barrier [Re: blaze2]
#5309241 - 02/16/06 11:42 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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ok skorp if you really want to convey your point your going to have to take down to a level where people who havent memorized the dictionary can understand. Seriously is there any reason to use the "grokked" I looked it up.
1 entry found for grokked. grok ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grk) tr.v. Slang grok?ked, grok?king, groks To understand profoundly through intuition or empathy.
I, for one, never found myself in the boat amongst those who dissented other's use of exquisite lexicon and magniloquent command of the English language. Being the reader I am and one who has always enjoyed Literature classes, I've always found myself admiring those with eloquent verbosity and adroit dominion of sophisticated vocabulary.
Words are the tools of thought, my friend. Indeed, language can be a barrier - but so can the lack of language. Can you build a great, towering skyscraper or mansion with only the bare essentials, e.g., a hammer and some nails? Of course not. The greater your vocabulary, the greater a thinker you become and the greater a communicator you mature into. And that in itself, opens a door for success in many a myriad of forms.
You should thank those who care enough to excercise heightened vocabulary and adroit communication, for they are doing you a favor. The more you surround yourself with such intelligence, the more you do yourself a favor, for you are in effect, creating a beneficial effect upon yourself. I, for one, appreciate the likes of MarkostheGnostic, who is nothing short of a wizard in language, and if memory serves correct, it is he who I learned the word "Grok" from. 
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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blaze2
The Witness


Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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thats all perfectly right. I read voraciously(see I got a vocabulary too), but simply using big words, even using them right, doesnt make you smarter than anyone else. Booksmart, but not real world smart. I am booksmart(tested IQ 4 times highest was 152 lowest 134), I understood most of your post(like I said tho there are some foggy parts though), even though I had never head alot of those words especially not in that small of a space.
heres my point. Why say "I exausted myself laboring under the scorching sun today", when a simple "man the sun whipped my ass today"gets the same point across. Language is a tool, when you talk like that man its like taking a jackhammer to a finishing nail. try not to overdue it. Yes there is a place for the knowledge you have, but a post on a message board, probrobly not. I garuntee you that most people will have a harder time reading that post than I did.
If no one understands you then its nothign more than intellectualy jacking off. peace
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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TacticalBongRip
Curious Observer


Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 527
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Re: The language barrier [Re: blaze2]
#5309507 - 02/17/06 04:29 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm gonna have to disagree with you blaze2. The purpose of speaking with a large vocabulary is to better describe one's thoughts. Although the audience may not always understand, I agree that it is a good thing for them. It encourages them to seek meaning in the words and may give them something to improve upon.
I am much like you blaze where as I don't understand the meanings of some of the words Skorpivo uses, but I feel I grasp much of what he is trying to convey. It is a good thing he has done, and I can only hope that I can continue to expose my mind to his thoughts and vocabulary , as well as those equally gifted in the using the tools of language.
My respect for Skorpivo is deep, but it is not merely because of his use of the english language but more because of the messages he is sending out. Mad props.
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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The more a color map is stretched, the easier it gets to pinpoint the exact shade of color sought.
The story about two blind men describing the elephant by one touching its snable and another touching a foot, says a lot about logic. We don't know very much, do we? Heheh, I don't at least.
Edited by dr_mandelbrot (02/17/06 04:40 AM)
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


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Re: The language barrier [Re: blaze2]
#5310025 - 02/17/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
blaze2 said: thats all perfectly right. I read voraciously(see I got a vocabulary too), but simply using big words, even using them right, doesnt make you smarter than anyone else.
Is this being proposed as a reason to not effectively convey one's meaning in a form that more clearly, precisely represents and transmits that meaning? One's vocabulary is not a standard by which to compare the intelligence of various people, but intelligence is certainly responsible for one's vocabulary.
Some choose to communicate in the manner they see fit with no consideration of whether or not it "makes them smarter" than others. The fact that others think through such a lens lies seperate.
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heres my point. Why say "I exausted myself laboring under the scorching sun today", when a simple "man the sun whipped my ass today"gets the same point across.
Personally, I would prefer the former statement to represent the message in most situations. I consider language to be an expression of myself, and I find value in investing creativity in my expressions. Communication becomes more enjoyable, vibrant, and meaningful when I invoke my imagination in the process.
The simple fact is that both phrases do not convey the same message. Each word implies a unique meaning.
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Yes there is a place for the knowledge you have, but a post on a message board, probrobly not. I garuntee you that most people will have a harder time reading that post than I did.
I appreciate the decree of proper etiquette that one must follow, but yet, taking into consideration the nature and content of the considerable amount of posts that I have read in the forum over the last four years, it is quite common for a numerous amount of participants to express themselves in similar manners. As Skorpivo mentioned, lack of language is a barrier, and it would be a great benefit for anyone who struggles with the proper understanding of his (or similar) posts to acquire the necessary means to understand.
Knowledge is power; an increase in any sort of understanding is a more complete realization of reality itself.
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If no one understands you then its nothign more than intellectualy jacking off. peace
I beg to differ. The message that is being conveyed still remains perfectly in tact to anyone who is capable of decoding it. Even if aeons pass and the content is destroyed and no one has ever been able to access it, the expression was still brought into existance, and the act of expression is powerful, if even for oneself. Expression is art, and I'd consider that there are numerous paintings that may have never been deciphered. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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TacticalBongRip
Curious Observer


Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 527
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I'll smoke to that , Fireworks_God 8)
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blaze2
The Witness


Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Quote:
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fireworks_god said:
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blaze2 said: thats all perfectly right. I read voraciously(see I got a vocabulary too), but simply using big words, even using them right, doesnt make you smarter than anyone else.
Is this being proposed as a reason to not effectively convey one's meaning in a form that more clearly, precisely represents and transmits that meaning? One's vocabulary is not a standard by which to compare the intelligence of various people, but intelligence is certainly responsible for one's vocabulary.
Some choose to communicate in the manner they see fit with no consideration of whether or not it "makes them smarter" than others. The fact that others think through such a lens lies seperate.
pretty much your right, doesnt make them less jackasses though.
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heres my point. Why say "I exausted myself laboring under the scorching sun today", when a simple "man the sun whipped my ass today"gets the same point across.
Personally, I would prefer the former statement to represent the message in most situations. I consider language to be an expression of myself, and I find value in investing creativity in my expressions. Communication becomes more enjoyable, vibrant, and meaningful when I invoke my imagination in the process.
The simple fact is that both phrases do not convey the same message. Each word implies a unique meaning.
Man you just love to argue huh? allright the POINT of writing isnt in single words it is in coherent ideas, in the form of sentences. the POINT of that sentence was to convey a feeling of being tired after work, both do it, and while one is full of flowery language it doesnt make me sound any MORE tired, in fact if someone said that after work I woudnt think they had worked all that hard, but its just one example. I never said one should ONLY stick to simple words. One of the first rules of writing however is that if simple will suffice then dont make it more complicated.
Big words with specific meanings have their place but they are not nesecerry in most instances. They add flair and are well used to make something stick out, but when a whole paragraph is chock full of them then there is nothing sticking out.
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Yes there is a place for the knowledge you have, but a post on a message board, probrobly not. I garuntee you that most people will have a harder time reading that post than I did.
I appreciate the decree of proper etiquette that one must follow, but yet, taking into consideration the nature and content of the considerable amount of posts that I have read in the forum over the last four years, it is quite common for a numerous amount of participants to express themselves in similar manners. As Skorpivo mentioned, lack of language is a barrier, and it would be a great benefit for anyone who struggles with the proper understanding of his (or similar) posts to acquire the necessary means to understand.
Knowledge is power; an increase in any sort of understanding is a more complete realization of reality itself.
Sure its always good to be able to add a few words to your memory banks, but the message he gave could have been conveyed without all that, AND most everyone would have understood him. Yes lack of language can be a barrier, but only to the person with the lack, the more versed fellow has the ability to show him their point/meaning/idea in terms they can understand, but when he chooses to hide it in big words he KNOWS he is cutting out a portion from understanding it.
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If no one understands you then its nothign more than intellectualy jacking off. peace
I beg to differ. The message that is being conveyed still remains perfectly in tact to anyone who is capable of decoding it. Even if aeons pass and the content is destroyed and no one has ever been able to access it, the expression was still brought into existance, and the act of expression is powerful, if even for oneself. Expression is art, and I'd consider that there are numerous paintings that may have never been deciphered. 
 Peace.
the fact that you love your expression/art more than the understanding of the idea written therin, shows you dont really want to debate, you only want to hear yourself talk, and that is literay masterbation.
I Know writing is an art, so are blacksmiths. Say a black smith makes a sword too big to be weilded, now that is useless art. IF the sword is magnificent then maybe it gets used as wall art or maybe in a statue, but its true purpose is lost. It was a sword, it is meant to be used in battle. Art it remains, but it is now useless.
Words are meant to convey feelings if they are too unweildy for most to grasp then the use is lost and it is useless art. The whole POINT of this forum is discussion of ideas, and if that is true then useless art has no place in here. peace
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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