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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: Redo]
    #2757946 -

The Ontario provincial NDP's of the early 90's in no way resemble the Federal NDP's now. Yes, Bob Rae was a bad choice, but I don't think Jack Layton is, and using Rae isn't really a good argument to show they'll increase deficeit.

I too would rather live in a society not entirely dictated by monetary wealth. It's bad enough people lust for money and lose track of important things, but the government shouldn't.

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Re: Canadian Federal Election *DELETED* *DELETED* [Re: Redo]
    #2759255 -

Post deleted by pB0t

Reason for deletion: .


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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: pB0t]
    #2759274 -

Were not going to abandon the people who cannot support their own necessities, however, we also know that the majority of people can support themselves and help out the few remaining.

Alot of people dont want their Social Security when they get older, they already have ALOT of money to retire on. Why should we be giving money to those who dont want it? That just makes more taxes? Why should Canadians pay for the people who dont need or dont want the goverments solutions to their own welfare?

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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: trendal]
    #2759669 -

Doctors shut out problem patients
MDs 'cherry pick' to avoid treating chronically sick

Veronique Mandal
Windsor Star


Wednesday, June 02, 2004

HOPEFUL: Patient Jason Onichuk sits in his Windsor apartment hoping to find a doctor to treat his injury and discomforts.

CREDIT: Nick Brancaccio, Star photo

ADVERTISEMENT



People with chronic illnesses are being shut out of doctors' offices and complain that "cherry-picking" doctors are denying them a right to basic health care.

Emergency rooms and walk-in clinics don't want to be used in lieu of a family doctor, so thousands of Windsorites languish in the twilight zone of needing a doctor's care, but having to wait until their condition deteriorates enough to warrant a trip to the ER.

Edna Walkins, 71, who suffers from chronic lung disease, high blood pressure and diabetes, looked for a doctor for five years. Last month she heard a newly arrived physician was taking patients.

"I went to the office and the secretary asked me to fill out an application form. She was very friendly and I thought I was finally going to start getting treatment again," said Walkins.

"But when I called a few days later she told me I was rejected. She said I had too many problems. Imagine that. Isn't that why you go to see a doctor?"

Jason Onichuk, 32, shifts restlessly in his chair, his back brace providing little comfort for his debilitating back pain.

He opens a thick medical file filled with doctor's notes and neurosurgical consultation reports.

He carries the file from doctor to doctor, and to hospital ERs. It always gets him rejected.

Onichuk had been prescribed many medications, including sleeping pills and ulcer treatments. But he said the narcotic painkillers given to him by a previous family doctor have made him a pariah.

In February 2002, Onichuk injured his lower back lifting a 250-pound barrel. Spinal injections with cortisone didn't work. The surgeon recommended surgery in about 10 years.

"My family doctor back then ... was great and did everything he could for me. He also prescribed Oxycontin, a narcotic, for pain."

"He disappeared for six months, and when he came back told me he wasn't allowed to prescribe narcotics and said I should find someone else. Ten years is a long time to wait to get out of pain."

Onichuk began looking for a new doctor, without success. He also started going to walk-in clinics and ER.

"The walk-in clinics would take me one time then tell me not to come back, and I know it wasn't the right thing to do but I started going to ER to get my prescription filled," Onichuk said. "They told me I can't use ER for a family doctor and I'm sure they think I'm just coming for drugs, but all I want is my back fixed, to get retrained, and have a normal life. Isn't everyone in this country entitled to health care?"

Onichuk's story is familiar to Hotel-Dieu Grace ER manager Tom Morris.

"We see many of those cases every week, and it's a symptom of the system not working for patients," said Morris.

"And it's not just the cost of a visit or medication, it's often costly tests doctors have to do to be sure of what they're treating."

Cherry picking by physicians raises the ire of many local physicians. Dr. David Paterson, president of the Essex County Medical Society, said until the way doctors are paid changes, it will continue.

"There's no incentive for doctors to take complicated patients, when they can get the same money for an earache. I'm personally against patients filling out applications because every legitimate patient should be seen," said Paterson. "There are ways to weed out drug seekers."

Dr. John Rapin, president of the Ontario Medical Association, said while doctors have a duty to look after patients, many are overloaded and burned out.

"It's a problem across the province. I work in ER and I see such patients all the time. It's a very severe problem but there aren't enough doctors."

Kathryn Clarke, with the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario, said there are no guidelines, moral obligations or law against physicians selectively choosing patients.

"Doctors generally want a balance of well and chronic patients and the unfortunate reality today is that they have to say no to some," Clarke said.

web page


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2766263 -

Very nice commentary from the Wall Street Journal on the upcoming Canadian election:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110005173

As the Journal notes, what masquerades as a "conservative" party in Canada would be classed "liberal" in the US. Try to imagine just how leftist the Canadian Liberal Party is, then -- let alone the Greens or the New Democratic Party.

Note also the comments on Canada's "third rail" political issue -- health care -- particularly the recent increases in health care charges to the Canadian citizen in Ontario. Yet another reminder that health care in Canada is not "free" health care at all, merely pre-paid.

Hopefully, our Canadian membership here will vote Conservative in the upcoming election. It may stave off complete economic collapse in Canada for a few more years.

pinky


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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: Phred]
    #2766283 -

I haven't seen anyone claiming that our health care is "free"...merely universal :wink:

If you don't like the term "universal"...then let's call it "health care that is available to all Canadian citizens, reguardless of personal economic standing".

What are you basing your assertion that we are heading towards "complete economic collapse" on?


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: trendal]
    #2766321 -

trendal writes:

What are you basing your assertion that we are heading towards "complete economic collapse" on?

The fact that an ever-increasing proportion of what Canadians produce ends up being passed through government hands. Taxes are higher than ever, the health care system is on the verge of collapse and the government's answer is to throw more money at it. The dollar is weak, the Maritime provinces have a higher unemployment rate than even European countries. Quebec continues its extortion of the RoC (rest of Canada) while the Feds continue their appeasement of La Belle Province. National security is a joke, self-admitted terrorists travel the world on Canadian passports which are generously replaced whenever said terrorists "lose" them.

The biggest single factor, however, is the insane degree to which Canadian government interferes in the everyday life of its citizens and their businesses. Unless the trend is reversed, Canada's economy will implode. It's just a question of how long it will take.

pinky


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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: Phred]
    #2766327 -

^^^ :smile:

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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: Phred]
    #2800998 -

A few excerpts from: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/pauljacob/pj20040613.shtml

Canada's National Post recently reported on a nationwide poll. "More than half of Canadians support a parallel private health care system that would let patients pay for speedier service," Tom Blackwell's June 1 article summarized. "The poll found 51 percent favour a two-tier system, with support highest in Quebec, at 68 percent, and Manitoba and Saskatchewan, the birthplace of medicare, at 57 percent."

Canada's political insiders hardly know how to react. No major party espouses private medicine, even in the watered-down form considered in the poll. How could so many Canadians want something very much like what America has? It's unpatriotic!

------------------------

In his book Code Blue, medical student David Gratzer reported that Canadians wait for radiation therapy three to four times longer than Americans do. The average wait for an MRI scan stretches almost to half a year, while Americans wait three days. Only a fifth of Canadians diagnosed with cancer can see a specialist within four weeks.

These problems aren't secret. Government commissions have listened to hours of horrifying testimony, and there have been numerous public studies. More strikingly, a current case before Canada's Supreme Court has made the problems front-page news. A Quebec doctor and his patient have sued the government for the right to contract privately for medical services. If the Court agrees, Canada's monolithic approach to medical care may be at an end, and with it Canadian waiting. (The court isn't expected to rule on the case until 2005, however, so they'll have to wait for an end to waiting. They're used to it.)

----------------------------

Calling something "free" and paying for it with taxes doesn't take away the need to make hard choices. Demand for medical services is almost limitless, especially when you make the "demand" little more than a request. So some means of rationing has to be put in place. And in Canada, doctors and administrators naturally choose the easiest method: delay.

Like socialist systems elsewhere, Canada's health care system rations by procrastination.

Crude, yes, but it can be horrifyingly effective. If the system is lucky, enough people die while waiting ? or have their life spans reduced ? thereby diminishing resource drain. This is how socialist systems have generally distributed goods: by making the queue, the waiting line, integral.

---------------------------

But how can you fool so many people for so much of the time? In Canada, it's part national pride ("we're not Americans!") and part egalitarianism.

--------------------------------

More at the link.

pinky


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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: Phred]
    #2801473 -

Excellent and informative article! Had only been following Sowell per your request at TownHall...may need to start following Jacob as well.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: Ancalagon]
    #2801866 -

There are some excellent columnists there, and some not so excellent. But I make it a point to check it several times a week. There's rarely a day goes by with nothing worth reading there.

Larry Elder is good, as is Walter Williams. Jonah Goldberg is usually a must read, too. Michelle Malkin can be a tad shrill but she gets her facts straight. Mike Adams is great on the Leftie stranglehood on Universities and their crusade against free speech. Charles Krauthammer is a do-not-miss. Walid Phares and Amir Taheri are great, but don't contribute as often as some of the others.

pinky


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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: Therapy]
    #2802291 -

Therapy said:
It's shaping up to be a dandy.

Liberals are slowly losing support, while the Conservatives actually have a shot at obtaining power.

I think a minority government this time around would be a breath of fresh air.

Latest polls: Liberals 38%, Conservatives at 30.4% and NDP 18.1%.

Thoughts? Opinions?


Normally i don't vote, but with the conservatives having a chance ill actually go vote liberal.
The conservatives want to do stupid things, like eliminate abortions, abolish gay marriges, criminalise marijuana, and other crap. Now i know the lliberals will fuck things up to, but at least they won't eliminate freedoms,,,just waste money, which all governments do.


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: Phred]
    #2802313 -

Marijuana and hemp products could greatly boost canadas economy, and tourism, etc....
Its insane the amount of $$$ that comes from the blackmarket pot industry.....in fact i don't understand, why its not leagal already, and the government taxing the shit out of it.


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: Azmodeus]
    #2802956 -

yeah, so much money comes from it....because its black market.

Its better for the economy if it stays illegal, in many senses.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: Positronius]
    #2830012 -

thread bumped for Ped


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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: trendal]
    #2884950 -

Dear America?
by Klaus Rohrich

Last week John Kerry called for a national healthcare system in the U.S., like the one in Canada. If you Americans are planning to institute a national universal healthcare system similar to ours, you might want to look somewhere other than Canada for the ideal model.

To give you a brief overview of Canada?s Universal healthcare system, it all started off well enough and ran like a top for many years. I remember when it was normal to call a doctor and get an appointment the same day, when one could get to see a specialist the next day or when someone needed a by-pass operation he or she didn?t have to wait a year to get it. Of course, in those days health care wasn?t exactly free, either. You see, all Canadians (except those who truly could not afford it) had to pay a monthly premium for their coverage.

Then the federal Liberals (the equivalent of your Democrats) decided to pass the Canada Health Act, which made medical coverage a basic human right. The act stipulated that health care was to be provided by the government only and that any form of private care was illegal. It put the burden of paying for healthcare into the hands of taxpayers, as the service would now be paid from the government?s general coffers.

In addition, there were numerous other provisions, such as controlling costs by limiting doctors? salaries and keeping nurses and other healthcare professionals at relatively low wages.

So the first thing that happened was that the doctors threatened to go on strike. The government called their bluff and told them to go ahead, but the doctors chickened out. Next, many of our best doctors moved to the United States, where government was not going to limit the amount of money they could earn.

Of course, the end result is predictable. Most jurisdictions in Canada now have a doctor shortage, despite the government?s denial of this stark reality. Anyone without a family physician is forced to attend a soviet-style walk-in clinic to receive routine medical care. As transient physicians staff these clinics, there is no relationship that develops between the doctor and his patients and items such as annual physical examinations are not available in these clinics. If one?s family doctor should retire, move or become deceased, then all of the doctor?s patients will be scrambling to find a new doctor. Yet, the government appears to be creating this doctor shortage on purpose, as enrollment in medical schools is strictly regulated and only a certain number of applicants are ever accepted, regardless of their academic standing.

The patient to doctor ratio varies from 2,000 to 4,000 patients per doctor, depending on geographical location. And many tests and procedures are beginning to be de-listed; meaning that the public healthcare system will no longer pay for them. Among these are items such as PSA examinations, which is used to screen for prostate cancer in men, physiotherapy or chiropractic treatments, certain dermatological procedures, such as the removal of skin growths and eye examinations.

The province of Ontario has recently decided that its "free health care" is now subject to an annual premium (spelled T-A-X), imposed on every taxpayer in the province. While this has angered most Ontario taxpayers, the government is refusing to look at any other alternatives to the way it currently provides healthcare.

While on a recent visit to Toronto?s Orthopedic and Arthritic Hospital, a facility specializing in the treatment of bone and joint problems, I overheard the harried receptionist at the clinic explaining why the patient would have to wait four to five months to receive surgical treatment,

"There are only so many orthopedic surgeons to go around." She explained. The patient was fortunate to have seen a surgeon and was waiting for a date for his procedure. Prior to his appointment with the surgeon, the patient had to be referred in writing by his family doctor, which usually takes from four to six weeks. After the initial visit, the surgeon likely requested an MRI, or magnetic resonance imaging procedure to determine the severity of the problem. Getting an MRI in Canada can take up to six months, although many Canadians choose to cross the border into the U.S. where they can get it next day for about $450.

After the MRI, the results of which can take as long as six to eight weeks to get back to the doctor, the patient has to make another appointment with the surgeon to find out if the procedure is warranted. From there an appointment is made, which usually takes two to three months. So from the time that one is aware of a serious problem, such a herniated vertebral disc until the time, the problem is actually dealt with, as much as a whole year can pass.

Other procedures can take longer, as in the case of hip or knee replacements, which can take three to four years of waiting.

Those Canadians who can afford it (including, by the way Paul Martin, our Prime Minister) will get their medical treatment at private clinics in the U.S. to avoid waiting. Often individuals who do this are vilified by other Canadians as "line jumpers", even though they jump the line outside the public healthcare system and pay for it themselves.

From where I sit, the U.S. healthcare system looks pretty good. Yes, it?s expensive, but the facilities are in place to provide care in a timely fashion. Those unable to afford medical treatment can still receive treatment provided at charity or county hospitals.

The Canadian healthcare system is currently threatening to collapse of its own inertia. Yes, it?s a good system we have here in Canada, so long as you make sure you never get sick. That?s why Americans would be well advised to look at a more flexible system than ours.

web page


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2884957 -

Yes, it?s a good system we have here in Canada, so long as you make sure you never get sick

right, except myself, and everyone I know, who have experienced perfect, and quick treatment for various afflictions from broken bones to cancer.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: Positronius]
    #2886330 -

You have no idea just how happy that makes me.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: Positronius]
    #2912684 -

Positronius writes:

right, except myself, and everyone I know, who have experienced perfect, and quick treatment for various afflictions from broken bones to cancer.

Broken bones, sure. Cancer? No way. Check some of the links in previous posts in this thread to see the disparity in waiting times for cancer treatments.

Or read this: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20040721.shtml

Free health care
Walter E. Williams
July 21, 2004


?Let's start out by not quibbling with America's socialists' false claim that health-care service is a human right that people should have regardless of whether they can pay for it or not and that it should be free. Before we buy into this socialist agenda, we might check out just what happens when health-care services are "free." Let's look at our neighbor to the north -- Canada.


?The Fraser Institute, a Vancouver, B.C.-based think tank, has done yeoman's work keeping track of Canada's socialized health-care system. It has just come out with its 13th annual waiting-list survey. It shows that the average time a patient waited between referral from a general practitioner to treatment rose from 16.5 weeks in 2001-02 to 17.7 weeks in 2003. Saskatchewan had the longest average waiting time of nearly 30 weeks, while Ontario had the shortest, 14 weeks.


?Waiting lists also exist for diagnostic procedures such as computer tomography (CT), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and ultrasound. Depending on what province and the particular diagnostic procedure, the waiting times can range from two to 24 weeks.


?As reported in a December 2003 story by Kerri Houston for the Frontiers of Freedom Institute titled "Access Denied: Canada's Healthcare System Turns Patients Into Victims," in some instances, patients die on the waiting list because they become too sick to tolerate a procedure. Houston says that hip-replacement patients often end up non-ambulatory while waiting an average of 20 weeks for the procedure, and that's after having waited 13 weeks just to see the specialist. The wait to get diagnostic scans followed by the wait for the radiologist to read them just might explain why Cleveland, Ohio, has become Canada's hip-replacement center.


?Adding to Canada's medical problems is the exodus of doctors. According to a March 2003 story in Canada News (www.canoe.ca), about 10,000 doctors left Canada during the 1990s. Compounding the exodus of doctors is the drop in medical school graduates. According to Houston, Ontario has chosen to turn to nurses to replace its bolting doctors. It's "creating" 369 new positions for nurse practitioners to take up the slack for the doctor shortage.


?Some patients avoided long waits for medical services by paying for private treatment. In 2003, the government of British Columbia enacted Bill 82, an "Amendment to Strengthen Legislation and Protect Patients." On its face, Bill 82 is to "protect patients from inadvertent billing errors." That's on its face. But according to a January 2004 article written by Nadeem Esmail for the Fraser Institute's Forum and titled "Oh to Be a Prisoner," Bill 82 would disallow anyone from paying the clinical fees for private surgery, where previously only the patients themselves were forbidden from doing so. The bill also gives the government the power to levy fines of up to $20,000 on physicians who accept these fees or allow such a practice to occur. That means it is now against Canadian law to opt out of the Canadian health-care system and pay for your own surgery.


?Health care can have a zero price to the user, but that doesn't mean it's free or has a zero cost. The problem with a good or service having a zero price is that demand is going to exceed supply. When price isn't allowed to make demand equal supply, other measures must be taken. One way to distribute the demand over a given supply is through queuing -- making people wait. Another way is to have a medical czar who decides who is eligible, under what conditions, for a particular procedure -- for example, no hip replacement or renal dialysis for people over 70 or no heart transplants for smokers.


?I'm wondering just how many Americans would like Canada's long waiting lists, medical czars deciding what treatments we get and an exodus of doctors.

*************************************************************



pinky


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Re: Canadian Federal Election [Re: Phred]
    #2918034 -

My mom has cancer. She just finished her last chemotheraphy treatment. Cost = $0.

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