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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per dregs potency testing [Re: ReverendMyc] * 5
    #29170488 -

I am going to try to test the acids vs water extractions this weekend. I am thinking also fresh vs dry. I am going to do some spit balling of the process here. So please make suggestions on how to level the field or if you see any flaws.

I have some pan cyan burringbar ready to harvest so that will be the test subject.
I want to test:
  • citric acid + fresh mushrooms
  • ascorbic acid + fresh mushrooms
  • citric & ascorbic acid + fresh mushrooms
  • water only + fresh mushrooms

  • citric acid + dried mushrooms
  • ascorbic acid + dried mushrooms
  • citric & ascorbic acid + dried mushrooms
  • water only + dried mushrooms

  • dried mushrooms not extracted in tea


So that is 9 tests.
  • Make 8 labeled cups to hold the different test samples.
  • Cut each individual stipe into 8 equal pieces.
    I don't think I can split the small caps 8 ways evenly. Stipes only maybe? Or only use caps large enough to split 8 ways.
  • Place different parts from each fruit into the labeled cups. Starting from the bottom of the stipe, rotate which container gets the first piece so that all cups contain an even distribution of segments from bottom to top.
  • Weigh all samples and ensure that they are the same.
  • Place 4 samples and the remaining mushrooms into the dehydrator to test the following day and do the tests on the fresh samples immediately.
  • Prepare the acid and water baths.
    I did some maths and it looks like VedicSoma's recipe calls for 1.3% acid solution and PrimalSoup's calls for 2%. So I will do 2% for each solution.
    PrimalSoup's recipe doesn't give a specific water content beyond "a tiny bit" but VedicSoma's calls for approximately 1:3 fresh mush to solution.

    I don't know the total weights that I will be working with yet, so I will figure the exact measures in situ, but the proportions with be:
  • 2% citric acid solution
  • 2% ascorbic acid solution
  • 1% citric acid + 1% ascorbic acid solution
  • 0% acid h2o

  • Prepare the teas from fresh using 1:3 fresh mush material to solution.
  • Here is where it gets difficult. The concentration of the teas at this level for cubes will be very approximately 1.5% of the top of the designed test range for dry materials. (see napkin math below). I am going to guess that the potency of the pans used in this test are 2x that of the cubes that the tests are designed for. This should mean we are at roughly 3% or 1/30th of the top of the testing range. So reducing the resulting teas to 1/10th of the initial volume should get us in the proper test range. Since this is all bullshit math and guestimation, I will do an initial test after reducing to 1/5th the initial volume. This will leave plenty of reserves to make any necessary adjustments.
  • Complete testing on all 4 samples from fresh mush.

    Day2.
  • After the remaining 4 samples in the dehydrator are dry, get the dry weight to determine the weight of lost water.
  • Prepare the acid and water baths the same as above.
  • Prepare teas as above using the dry materials instead of fresh and adding additional water of the same amount as the weight lost in dehydration to keep all things equal.
  • Follow the same reducing procedure as for the fresh test.
  • Complete testing on all 4 samples from dried mush and a homogenized sample from the remaining dried mush.

  • Make a really cool spreadsheet graph.:nerd:


Note:
1. I will share the results as the colorimeter shows them. Since this is a liquid test I was a little wary of proper procedures and results. However, I just ran some questions by Dr Felix and am feeling more confident about some of my plans.

2. The QTests show the combined psilocin and psilocybin content. It may be that the fresh and acid bath teas will contain more psilocin. There is a step in the test procedure before the hot water bath that indicates the presence of psilocin by the reagent turning greenish. The test is not quantitative so we won't know the amount of psilocin, but a darker green indicates more so we can do a comparison of the non-quantitative concentration of each result. I will be sure to take a picture at that step as well.



Napkin maths: I have found that dry mush material converted to tea and then dehydrated produces about 35% of the starting weight in dried extract @~ 1.5x potency. Fresh fruits contain approx 12:1 in water to mush. We are adding 3x solution. So 35% of 1.5 times 1/12 divided by 3 is ~1.5%.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per dregs potency testing [Re: ReverendMyc] * 2
    #29170500 -

Can't wait!
:carlton:


--------------------
Low Prep the World! (agar plates)
Low Prep the World! (grain prep)
Trashcan FC
Acidulated extraction gummies and drops
Drying agar and grains using parchment paper
:leaf:Cleaning your bubble hash bags


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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per dregs potency testing [Re: YoshiTrainer]
    #29170664 -

Are you just trying to see which acid will extract better or what pH level will extract better?
I'm excited to see the results!

:superscience:


--------------------
Pastywhyte’s Ez dialed monotubs
My Miraculix Potency Test Results
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Shroomery
My Museum





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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per dregs potency testing [Re: Bigworm] * 1
    #29170685 -

Just if acids extract better than water and if one or the other or the combination is better on this round. If that is the case then I might move on to different ph levels. If there isn't a significant difference between water and acidic solutions I probably won't expend more tests on it.

The fresh vs dry is another aspect I want to figure out. But I have been limited on this because the test instructions are for dry material. So I didn't see a way to construct a reasonable test. We had been told that it was possible but I still had a lot of questions on the process. Now that I have more information on getting reliable results from liquids I am willing to try. It still may come to nothing if I can't get the liquid concentration to within the test's range while accurately tracking the how much it is reduced to get there.

I prefer to work with dried materials where I will be able to be certain of accurate results. But to compare tea from fresh vs from dried, fully dehydrating the tea from fresh would probably invalidate the results.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per dregs potency testing [Re: ReverendMyc] * 2
    #29172023 -

I'm interested in the fresh vs dry too. I just made gummies with a bunch of fresh Yeti that I have not tried yet. I'm hoping they're more potent made with fresh. I'm hoping by keeping it just under boiling(100c/212f) I did not degrade the psilocin too much and that the gummy material locks the O2 out. Either way I want to know if fresh tea is better.


--------------------
Pastywhyte’s Ez dialed monotubs
My Miraculix Potency Test Results
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Shroomery
My Museum





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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per dregs potency testing [Re: Bigworm]
    #29172042 -

I’m curious to know about potency loss when reducing tea. My thinking was the faster I boiled the water off, the less time it has to oxidize 🤷‍♂️


--------------------
Thank your postal workers when you see them. None of this would be possible without them.

Necessity is the mother of invention

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per dregs potency testing [Re: EniQma] * 3
    #29172161 -

EniQma said:
I’m curious to know about potency loss when reducing tea. My thinking was the faster I boiled the water off, the less time it has to oxidize 🤷‍♂️


That's another one I will need to do if this trial of liquid works. Should be pretty straight forward. I will make a tea using any method. Then split it into three batches. Reduce each down to the same volume, one by boiling, one by low heat simmer and one in the dehydrator then test the potency and compare.

I should know in a few minutes if I have the liquid potency test figured out. I will save the update for after I complete the rest of the tests though. Getting pretty late by the time I finish the fresh testing. Then still need to do the dry testing tomorrow.


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per dregs potency testing [Re: ReverendMyc] * 9
    #29174662 -

Well this test was fairly inclusive and will require some follow up.
Here is the data, the flaws, some speculation, and the plan.

DATA

  • Pretty much followed the process outlined above. The amount of the harvest was around 53 grams wet so I decided to go with 5 grams fresh per sample. 4 or the 8 samples were dehydrated for 24 hours to do the dry tests. The 5 grams fresh dried down to an average of 0.527 grams. I did a tiny bit of rebalancing so the dry tests all started from the exact same amount.
  • I took before and after measurements for the reductions and used the inverse of the reduction to as a multiple of the measured potency to get the true potency of the tea. Potency reading / reduction inverse = potency unreduced tea.
  • Using those calculations, the fresh tea without acids was more potent; the dry teas with acid were more potent; and the dried teas were all more potent than their fresh counterparts. (See flaws and speculation below)


Flaws
  • I did the first test on a single sample that had been reduced to about 1/5th as planned. It proved that my assumption that reduction would be necessary to get the samples into the test reading range was wrong. However, by this point, I had already reduced all 4 fresh samples down to approx 1/5th. On the next round with the tea from dried material I tested some unreduced tea and confirmed that the reduction was unnecessary.
  • In an attempt to minimize variables, though,  I continued with the plan and reduced the tea for the dried samples the following day even though it wasn't necessary to get a reading.
  • I messed up the timing and could not do the reductions for the same amount of time due to family obligations. So the fresh teas were reduced for 2 hours at 165f while the teas from dried were reduced in the dehydrator for 4 hours at 90f. So they are not the same. That is the first disqualification.
  • Then after I got back from family business it was late and the 4 hours at 90f had not reduced the teas as much as the faster, hotter cycle with fresh. But it was getting late and I had the reduction inverse calculation to offset differences so I continued rather than scrap the whole thing. DQ #2.
  • The final nail is that I retested the same sample of citric and ascorbic acid tea from dried before and after the reduction and using the handy dandy inverse reduction calculation I got a significant difference in potency readings. So either they inverse calculation is not reliable or a fair bit of potency was lost in the dehydration process, or something else. DQ #3
  • I didn't bother wasting a test on the dried mush since it wouldn't really add anything to the experiment with all of these other issues.


Some Speculation
Take the following with grain of salt as it is all guess work and observation from limited data.
  • Reports are that fresh and acid baths give a more potent psychedelic experience. While these flawed results for fresh seem to contradict those observations I offer this as a possible explanation. All tests that I have seen indicate that the psilocin to psilocybin ratio is tiny, as in there is far more psilocybin than psilocin. However, the psychedelic effect of mushrooms comes entirely from the psilocin. The psilocybin needs to be converted to psilocin before it has an affect on us, either in the stomach or by chemical reaction before ingestion. The QTests that I am using only show the combined total of psilocin and psilocybin. So if the acidified teas have a higher psilocin content because some of the more available psilocybin has been converted, you would expect a lower total reading while still feeling a greater effect in the body.
  • Going further out on a limb: For the dried mushrooms, it is accepted that most of the psilocin is destroyed in the drying process. So adding acid to convert some psilocybin to psilocin may increase the total actives. I don't feel very confident in this part, but thought I would toss it out there.
  • Also, what was up with that loss in potency from reduction? I was under the impression that this would not be a factor. So that will be on the agenda for testing soon just as EniQma proposed. I should have enough of something laying around to test this one without waiting on a new grow.


The Plan
  • Retest using unreduced teas.
  • I learned a few things, so it was not a total loss.
  • I don't plan to change much else except I will be using what ever variety that I grow next that isn't already slated for other experiments.


So that is how I spent some of my weekend, more to come when the next grow completes.

****************************************

Almost forgot to add pictures.


Preparing fresh teas


First sample of reduction tested before and after water bath for proof of concept. When it worked, I completed the other three. The before pix indicate the presents of psilocin by the blue-green color. My very logical and consistent labeling is O for 0 acid, C for citric(not vitamin C), A for ascorbic(actual vitamin C) & no label for citric & ascorbic.


Preparation of the dried teas and the reduction.


Reduced tea from dry. Note how dark the tea with no acid is. That is the bluing from oxidation of the psilocin that was reduced or eliminated in the acidified teas.


Confirmation that the reductions step was completely unnecessary. Shoot me now.


Before and after water bath, again, plenty of blue-green indicating the presence of psilocin in each. Label D for dry with 0 acid while A & C stayed the same(see, I told you that I am consistent), but then also labeled AC on the citric & ascorbic sample this time.

Tada!


--------------------
Stoned Gummys | BRF Pucks | Primo Reusable Plates | Easy LI 4 Preserv & Propo
"Psychedelics are powerful substances. Nothing that powerful is completely safe... and nothing completely safe is that powerful!" - Abigail Calder at ALPS 2023
Don't Panic

Edited by ReverendMyc (03/31/25 06:51 PM)

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29174849 -

You had me at excel graphs and nerd in the op


--------------------
But in the end it's only a passing thing, this shadow; even darkness must pass.

“If I was stuck on a desert island with you and a can of spam, I’d eat you and talk to the spam”

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Rooster87]
    #29175032 -

:coolpost:

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: Bigworm] * 1
    #29175087 -

Bigworm said:
I'm interested in the fresh vs dry too. I just made gummies with a bunch of fresh Yeti that I have not tried yet. I'm hoping they're more potent made with fresh. I'm hoping by keeping it just under boiling(100c/212f) I did not degrade the psilocin too much and that the gummy material locks the O2 out. Either way I want to know if fresh tea is better.


lower temps are better if you can swing it.  the actives are most stable and extract better in a solvent solution of ~25 celsius.  higher temperatures result in increased molecular kinetics and thus higher rates of oxidation.  the good news is that the difference between 25c and 100c appears to be a loss of only ~10%.


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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: dinosaurs] * 1
    #29175103 -

My water doesn’t boil at 25c because I’m at sea level


--------------------
Thank your postal workers when you see them. None of this would be possible without them.

Necessity is the mother of invention

Edited by EniQma (04/01/25 09:01 AM)

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: EniQma] * 1
    #29175105 -

Pretty sure the boiling point of water is 100C

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: EniQma]
    #29175106 -

boiling point of water @ 1 atmosphere is 100c/212f.

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: DERRAYLD] * 2
    #29175340 -

dinosaurs said:
...
lower temps are better if you can swing it.  the actives are most stable and extract better in a solvent solution of ~25 celsius.  higher temperatures result in increased molecular kinetics and thus higher rates of oxidation.  the good news is that the difference between 25c and 100c appears to be a loss of only ~10%.




I am on record as finding that "study" almost useless due to poor methodology and lack of peer review. It has to be the most quoted and least convincing research I see on this forum. I am happy to see some published research and commend them for getting it out there, but it needs some serious follow up and revision. One study with no peer review and response does not make for convincing research imho.

EniQma said:
My water doesn’t boil at 25c because I’m at sea level


:rofl:

DERRAYLD said:
Pretty sure the boiling point of water is 100C


Not in space, maaan! :lol::bonghit:

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29175354 -

:lol:

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: DERRAYLD] * 1
    #29175564 -

Only the true froglords know how to boil water at 25C!


--------------------
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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: ReverendMyc] * 1
    #29175944 -

ReverendMyc said:
I am on record as finding that "study" almost useless due to poor methodology and lack of peer review. It has to be the most quoted and least convincing research I see on this forum. I am happy to see some published research and commend them for getting it out there, but it needs some serious follow up and revision. One study with no peer review and response does not make for convincing research imho.



it was peer reviewed and has been cited in a number of papers.

link to study if anyone cares to read it

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: dinosaurs] * 4
    #29176181 -

Peer review is not an antidote to poor methodology.


--------------------
The meaning of Life is simple once you remove your anthropic lens

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Re: Top Tea Prep method test per potency testing of dregs, teas, & extracts [Re: SevR] * 1
    #29176190 -

SevR said:
Peer review is not an antidote to poor methodology.


if the methodology is truly bad, it won't pass peer review, and would be highly unlikely to be used as a cited source in subsequent papers.  as far as analytical chemistry goes, this is not complicated work; it's a morning at an lc/msd.

I'd love to hear specifics of what anyone finds objectionable about the applied methodology.

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