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Invisibleafoaf
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Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental uniter
    #2908321 - 07/20/04 01:56 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/07/20/bush.environment.ap/index.html

Nixon EPA chief criticizes Bush

Tuesday, July 20, 2004 Posted: 11:40 AM EDT (1540 GMT)

CONCORD, New Hampshire (AP) -- The head of the Environmental Protection Agency for two Republican presidents criticized President Bush's record on Monday, calling it a "polluter protection" policy.

Russell E. Train, who headed the EPA from September 1973 to January 1977 -- part of the Nixon and Ford administrations -- said Bush's record on the environment was so dismal that he would cast his vote for Democrat John Kerry.

"It's almost as if the motto of the administration in power today in Washington is not environmental protection, but polluter protection," Train said. "I find this deeply disturbing."

In 1988, Train was co-chairman of Conservationists for Bush, an organization that backed the candidacy of George W. Bush's father.

Train spoke at an event organized by Environment2004, which opposes Bush's environmental record.

He accused Bush of weakening the Clean Air Act and said the president's record falls short of those set by former Republican presidents, from Theodore Roosevelt, who advocated creating national parks and forests, to George H.W. Bush, who supported revised standards for clean air.

The Bush-Cheney campaign defended the president's record, saying states such as New Hampshire benefit from the president's Healthy Forests Initiative.

They also argued that sulfur dioxide and nitrogen oxide emissions have dropped during the Bush administration.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The one thing worth mentioning is that sulfer dioxide
and carbon dioxide emissions have been dropping
EVERY YEAR SINCE 1980

http://www.careenergy.com/technology/results.asp
http://encarta.msn.com/text_761578185___11/Acid_Rain.html
http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/p/tp-glo20021125a1.html

This is the result of increased technology, better fuel
efficiency as well as Emissions Trading.

One interesting thing is that Bush's Clear Skies Act pushes
for a similar trading scheme for other pollutants, which, when
compared to the aforementioned program could be a +
for bush in the environment column if it works as well as
the current programs have.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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OfflinePsilygirl
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Registered: 08/28/03
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental uniter [Re: afoaf]
    #2908353 - 07/20/04 02:07 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

afoaf said:
carbon dioxide emissions have been dropping
EVERY YEAR SINCE 1980




that is the biggest lie i have ever heard


--------------------
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."


Puget Sound Mycological Society


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Offlinecoralrives
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Registered: 05/22/04
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental uniter [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2908447 - 07/20/04 02:33 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

"that is the biggest lie i have ever heard"




No no, that would be, "No, I won't come in your mouth..." :crazy: :crazy: :grin:


--------------------
"Be good and you will be lonesome."
Mark Twain


Grow Log




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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2908710 - 07/20/04 03:51 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

then you are the biggest fool I've ever seen...

read any of those three links that I posted.

it seems a very clear fact to both sides of the
political spectrum that emissions in the US have
been on a steady decline for the past 20 years,
due largely in part to a number of legislative
efforts.

if you don't believe that, I anxiously await your
scientific study refuting these commonly held
facts.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: afoaf]
    #2908768 - 07/20/04 04:11 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

I can't speak directly to your study, but can share my personal 20-year observation of Las Vegas and Southern California. I have travelled between the two for some 25 years. When I first came to Vegas you could see the surrounding mountains clearly every single day of the year. There are more and more days when the mountains are completly obscured.

Driving over to the California coast, the sky used to be yellow/brown/grey some 70 miles in; now it has expanded to around 110+ miles.

Pollution in these regions has dramatically worsened in my unscientific observations.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Swami]
    #2908803 - 07/20/04 04:20 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Well Swami, I have been living in California for 43 years and the level of air pollution has dropped. When I was a child I could not play outside some days because I would get chest pains from breathing in SO2 laden air. Southern California has always been subject to an inversion layer which will trap smoke and fog, creating smog. In this state we have the most strict emmisson standards in the world.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflinePhillinGroovy
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Registered: 07/20/04
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Evolving]
    #2908909 - 07/20/04 04:45 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

"carbon dioxide emissions have been dropping"

Carbon dioxide, not sulfur dioxide. Go back and look at your own links - there is no mention of carbon dioxide emmissions declining.

Carbon dioxide emmissions are caused by burning fossil fuels. Our global use of fossil fuels is higher now than ever before, so carbon dioxide emmissions are at an all time high.


Sulfur dioxide and acid rain are less of a problem in the US now than they were in 1980.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: PhillinGroovy]
    #2908986 - 07/20/04 04:59 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

I didn't provide any links, try responding to the right person. BTW, sulfur dioxide emmisions also result from the burning of fossil fuels.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflinePhillinGroovy
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Evolving]
    #2909038 - 07/20/04 05:12 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

1) true enough - i should have responded to afoaf.
2) carbon dioxide is a necessary product of the burning of any fossil fuel. It is impractically expensive to remove from emissions. Sulfur dioxide results from the burning of some fossil fuels, such as many types of coal, but not, for example, from the burning of gasoline. It is relatively cheaper to remove from the gasseous waste stream because 1) there's alot less of it, 2) it is produced at a few concentrated points, such as power plants, as opposed to many points, like cars, 3) It isn't really that expensive to substitute low-sulfur coal for high sulfur coal. As I've already said, there is no "low-carbon" fossil fuel.

Sulfur dioxide and carbon dioxide are entirely different, in effects, in source, and in the possibility of technological solution.

You can read about sulfur dioxide here:
http://www.epa.gov/airtrends/sulfur.html


Sorry for any offense I caused, but the fact remains:

Carbon dioxide emmissions are not falling.




btw, I used to post to these forums as "phi1618", but haven't been here for a while.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: PhillinGroovy]
    #2909124 - 07/20/04 05:28 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Thank you for the correction.

Psilygirl, I guess you're half right and I'm half a fool.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Swami]
    #2909134 - 07/20/04 05:31 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I can't speak directly to your study, but can share my personal 20-year observation of Las Vegas and Southern California. I have travelled between the two for some 25 years. When I first came to Vegas you could see the surrounding mountains clearly every single day of the year. There are more and more days when the mountains are completly obscured.

Driving over to the California coast, the sky used to be yellow/brown/grey some 70 miles in; now it has expanded to around 110+ miles.

Pollution in these regions has dramatically worsened in my unscientific observations.




is that the result of carbon or sulfur dioxides or some other
pollutant completely unrelated to the whitehouse's claims?

I'm also with Evolving, 27 years in California and LA seems a lot
better than it was 10 years ago.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: PhillinGroovy]
    #2909274 - 07/20/04 06:09 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

PhillinGroovy said:
Sulfur dioxide results from the burning of some fossil fuels, such as many types of coal, but not, for example, from the burning of gasoline.



Sulfer compounds are present in many crude oils, the cheaper oils usually have more. They are also present in the fuels used (such as LPG and fuel oil) in the refining process as fuel for furnaces. (FYI, I used to work in the Coker/Sulfur Acid division at a Chevron Oil Refinery) Due to environmental concerns and for equipment reliability, entire new plants had been built at oil refineries to remove the sulfur compounds from process streams, that is why SO2 production from burning gasoline is greatly reduced compared to what it once was. Ever smelled a catalytic converter gone bad? That rotten egg smell is sulfer compounds.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Evolving]
    #2909294 - 07/20/04 06:13 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

So why exactly haven't we moved to clean-burning hemp methanol for our fuel needs again?


--------------------


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2909299 - 07/20/04 06:14 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

I burn hemp whenever I can.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Evolving]
    #2909347 - 07/20/04 06:30 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

He said clean-burning!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Swami]
    #2909397 - 07/20/04 06:48 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

no, no, no, evolving uses a b0ng to ensure his hemp
burning is of the utmost purity.


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OfflinePsilygirl
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: afoaf]
    #2909508 - 07/20/04 07:42 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

burning any organic matter is still burning carbon... anything with a long carbon chain will combust into CO2... plant matter such as soy/hemp/etc is just less carbon intensive and is a step towards no net CO2 emissions.


afoaf--no worries.  :sun:


--------------------
"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."


Puget Sound Mycological Society


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Offlinecb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 7 years, 11 months
Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2909564 - 07/20/04 08:05 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

But the CO2 released from burning organic material comes from a "new" source. CO2 from fossil fuels has been trapped for millions of years and thus creates a problem.


--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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Anonymous

Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Shroomism]
    #2909576 - 07/20/04 08:08 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

So why exactly haven't we moved to clean-burning hemp methanol for our fuel needs again?

how much are you willing to pay for it?


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Bush is a compassionate conservative environmental unite [Re: Psilygirl]
    #2909586 - 07/20/04 08:12 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)



--------------------


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