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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28760015 -

They can accumulate heavy metals in the fruit bodies, which should be well regulated in feed stock.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog] * 1
    #28760129 -

It is also what I thinked but difficult to find information. What could be ok for animal feed could still be high enough so mushroom accumulate risky amount.
Still need to continue my research.
Trying to make people eat healthier with mushroom and ending poisoning them would be a shame hahaha

Edited by GRETO (05/03/24 08:26 AM)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28760457 -

Looking forward to hear your further test results.

If I may vote please do more tests with supplemented straw pellets (especially with wheat bran, alfalfa or sunflower) :grin: I've done two years of straight straw pellets and will be soon starting to supplement and any data related to this would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: spasm666] * 1
    #28765930 -

Nice GRETO! Thanks for sharing that👍

I just harvested the second flush off the last bag this morning so here’s my final update on this lil experiment here. It kind of fell apart on the back half of the grow but I think I still learned what I wanted and there’s some pretty good data here so I’m fairly happy with how it turned out.

April 26th

The KBO HWP bag only put out 3.5oz on its second flush and the picture of the harvest got lost in the void.

April 27th

The second flush of KBO on Masters mix came out to 5.5oz and the EO 8.6oz. While on the Bluegrass bags we got 4.9oz KBO and 17.9oz EO. These weights seem off to me by just looking at the pictures. The person watching them knows how to use a scale so I’m not sure what happened.


April 28th

Second flush of Elm oyster on the HWP gave 6.7oz


May 5th

5.3oz for the second flush of KBO on the Alfalfa mix


May 7th

And last but not least we got 5.6oz of Elm oyster on the Alfalfa mix


- - - - Harvests - - - -

                                    Flush 1        Flush2
Pure HWP (KBO)                9.7oz.        3.5oz
Pure HWP (EO)                  5.3oz.        6.7oz

Masters Mix (KBO)            14.5oz.        5.5oz
Masters Mix (EO)              10.6oz.        8.6oz

Bluegrass (KBO)                18.7oz.        4.9oz
Bluegrass (EO)                  11.1oz.      17.9oz

Alfalfa (KBO)                      9.5oz.        5.3oz
Alfalfa (EO)                        5.5oz.        5.6oz

Conclusion

While I was away during the second half of this grow it looks like there may have been some errors in the recording of the harvests. Pair that with harvests being at varying levels of maturity and a fluctuating climate in the Martha I’m finding it hard to make any solid conclusions about this experiment.

Ultimately though I was just looking to see what the general performance of these other pellets were compared to soy hulls. And really the biggest difference I could tell was the morphology of the fruits in the different substrates. I’m sure if I ran this again for multiple flushes and hydrated between flushes the final yields would near each other. I also think the stability of the oyster cultures may have played a roll in the wide range of yields

And while I enjoy the convenience of not having to PC the pure HWP bags I think I’m gonna continue using supplemented blocks since I’m only planning on running bags for 2 flushes. Bluegrass pellets are the cheapest around for me and I like how they did so I’ll be switching to them once my soy hulls are gone

Soooooo to wrap it up, don’t let soy hulls hold your wallet hostage if they’re not readily available in your area and try out some other pellets you can find locally. You might like the results. Thanks for reading ✌️

Ps. I typed this out all on my phone and the flush harvest columns were a little tricky so hopefully the formatting isn’t all fucked up on your side. Here’s a screenshot of that section incase it is:

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28820993 -

Hey,
I am using raw sawdust and wheat bran for one month now.
I can now say for sure that the nitrogen was not the trigger but the density of my pellet was.
With pellet which were really thin powder once watered, I had to add at least 30% and get best result with 40% bran, compare to 10-20% with what my bags struggled to colonize.
Now that I use sawdust which is more crudder. I got best result between 25% and 30% bran. Still higher than the usually recommended 15% then.
Better than that, as it is more voluminous, I can't put 5kg in a bag without getting to the filter so I only put 4kg (wet). And I get same result as 5kg with 40% bran. Amazing ! WIth 1.8 (4lbs) dry matter, I usually get between 1 and 1.5 kg (2-3lbs) and best bags evan give me back the 1.8kg in mushroom.
I did try 40-50% and there is no difference in colonization time or yield so I stay at 25% as bran is more expensive that sawdust, why poor more for no better result.

Regarding the sunflower and rapeseed meal, I had to delay my test. I am in the process of obtaining organic certification and it is impossible to find small quantity of organic Sunflower or rapeseed meal. Only available in Tons. If it do not work well, I am fucked

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28821458 -

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Density definitely plays an important role. I'll be sure to take that account when I soon start exploring recipes. 1.8kg from a 4kg block is truly astonishing!

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: spasm666]
    #28821755 -

Very nice data points GRETO thank you for that info! Are you making this new sawdust yourself, and do you know what species?

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28821993 -

Sure, here more details :
1.8 kg is really the beeeeeest I can get with 3 flush with my best strains. Not happening on every bags ! Maybe 10% give me amazing results. Best one so far give 1kg first flush but shitty second flush. Not the best one commercially so but I never seen a oyster cluster like this one.
It is really dependent on 2nd flush :

As on average, I get between 0.6 - 0.8 Kg first flush (pretty consistent on that, not big diff on each bags) but then the myc decide if it want to remain my friend. Some bags give my a second flush near the first one. Some only grow fews; It is why my yield can go from single to double.

Then the third flush is usually pretty weak. I am not a full capacity so I let the blocks a little bit longer in FC. It give nice shaped mushroom,  bigger than other flush but only few in qtt from 0.1-0.2 more

EDIT : I like testing and one of my fav is cutting bag test. For me it really change everything. Large cross, small cross, U, H, multiple holes...
I found that some species prefer the usual cross cut and other really trive with a rectangle shape cut. Also, I am trying to help second flush by making a second rectangular cut. Like Go from a U to a H.
Not always working, but when it work, I got a second massive pinset

Edited by GRETO (06/21/24 08:41 PM)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO] * 1
    #28821998 -

TPython, I do not make my sawdust, I found firewood seller in the village next to mine and it is half the price of pellet :thumbup: 100% beech wood.

I am in a hot aera in the south of France. All these numbers I gave are made with my actual champion : Florida Oyster which looks to like my weather. Only thing is that as it do massive pinset, it could strave for O2 and so make some stem (customer do not seems to be bothered)


I also do golden osyter which are way less good yielder, italian oyster, I struggle with pin all over the bag with them so not best yield.
And Lion's Mane, my fav. Yield and shape is for me really erratic but what a flusher. I have some bags that are on their 5 flush and still give little fruit. Piopino and Chestnut are incubation.
Black Pearl, Eryngii and others cold weather now do not fruit.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28822091 -

Beautiful pinset.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: deadmandave]
    #28822096 -

Yeah I figured 1.8kg is not your everyday yield. I'm hoping to get 1kg with first flush (I only do one flush).

Nice find on the beech sawdust.

Also the different cuts are interesting. Have you tried just a single slit? Someone said it worked out the best for him. Easiest to harvest with the least sub to clean off the cluster. But yeah cut styles is something to play with.

I agree with deadmandave, beautiful pinset. Epic.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28822104 -

Nice score on the sawdust! I’ve been planning on starting another trial using dust that comes off of our Alaskan chainsaw mill setup that we run but it’s mostly pine trees. I’m just interested to see what the production difference between that and the hardwood pellets I’ve been using would be. *most of this wood has been dead standing for years, so I would expect any strong pine antifungal properties have been aged out*

That pic you posted above is one of the best oyster pinsets I’ve ever seen! A beautiful culture that seems like it’s found its home with you. Thank you for showing your findings here

Please don’t be a stranger to starting your own thread GRETO! It seems you’ve been doing a lot of great work with gourmets and we would all love to hear about your findings. I just don’t want your work to end up getting buried with my shabby experiment post haha.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 1
    #28822259 -

People lurk this thread.  Like me :lol:

If GRETO started a new thread, I would have missed it!  And I love all of the excellent information in this thread, and the experiments.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 2
    #28822268 -

Simple cut for Lion manes work very well! Big nice fruit.
I do not like it so much for oyster. As mine like to pin at the edge of the cut and the bag remaining tight. It give nice mushroom on the center and lot of blocked pins inside the bag on the edge. Get better with X cut as the bag loosen a bit. But I still prefer the U or H cut which as you can see work very well for me.

Give a try for sure with old pine! Lot of grower achieve good results with it! I heard that some pines species are even usable "fresh" as they do not contain that much of antifongic.

I will for sure make some thread about my different test and also about how I designed and build my tools + automation when it will be ready.Still need to make it digestible, with lot of pics, etc.
I am quite happy with my learning curve, fews months ago I was struggling with 50% rate contam and now I enjoy getting better and better results. Mushroom world is so amazing.
My mantra : TEST EVERYTHING ! I have convince that there is still lot to discover and improve.(Especially with sub composition, why your experiment is clearly not a shabby one !!!)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28822296 -

Are you all using gypsum at all?  It should help with substrate texture and may be a missing factor in optimal supplement ratios.

I bought a bag mostly to keep the pH stable, as I want to reuse blocks without having to rebalance the pH of spent blocks with lime.  But the pH stabilization has also been shown to improve vigor in experiments with Oyster mushrooms on grains, as it prevents the metabolic acids from oxidizing and altering the pH as the mycelium digests the food source. 

They also used lime in the study, but I haven't experimented with adding it to blocks yet.  If I did, I might try that same low ratio using both lime and gypsum (1% of each by dry weight).


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog]
    #28823450 -

Never used for now.
You try to use spent block? The energy content would not be extremely poor as the bag already give lot of fruit?

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28823614 -

Mycelium will run out of vigor before they run out of nutrition.  Or drop the pH to levels that they don't thrive at due to their own metabolic processes.  Both of these open up the colony to parasites and competitors.  Or simply reduce fruiting to such small flushes that it's not worth the space to keep the block running.  In all cases a lot of nutrition will be left in the block.

And you can re-supplement with grains/brans (at reduced ratios).  Or cut 50/50 spent blocks with fresh ones and basically keep the process going indefinitely (if you pH adjust everything).

Additionally, some species are more adapt at breaking down lignin than others.  As an example, sequencing blocks shiitake -> oyster -> wine caps allows the later two species to more easily access any nutrients in the lignin.  But, going oyster -> oyster - > oyster forever as long as you keep adding small bits of nutrients to the leftovers and adjusting the pH also works.

People are recycling cube grows now too.  Someone made a thread about it. I think they sterilized and reinoculated with an LC even to show how much nutrition is still avaiable.  And I've experimented a bit with repastuerizing (not even sterilizing) spent pan substrate and running more pans on it.  The few experiments I did didn't contaminate, but I haven't gotten around to running it again as I was more focused on dialing in my tent and casing.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (06/23/24 10:31 AM)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog]
    #28823738 -

Interesting. Re-supplementing and inoculating spent blocks would save costs of new raw materials. But should be more labor so it's not a no-brainer at least in commercial growing though. I will soon try using spent LM blocks made of birch and wheat bran as the bulk material for oysters, supplementing with wheat bran.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: spasm666]
    #28824389 -

As spasm666, I do not think it is relevant for commercial use...

First, if it is not at least as efficient as new sub, there is no reason to do it. 
Like my raw material cost me 0.7€ per bag. Which mean I save 0,35€ if I use half spent block, right?
If on average, these blocks just give me 0.1kg less, I am loosing money by doing that. Even if same yield, time consumed to check, open and break old block added, I do not see how it can be relevant.

Second, contam with this kind of techniques.
After 2/3 flushs. Even if they look healthy, some of the blocks start to get little bacterial contam and it is not visible. I only found out because of the smell once I discard them and open the bag in half on my pile of compost.
I'm not too keen on putting large quantities of bacteria back into the cycle. Even if the pasteurization managed to kill them, I do not like at all working with dirty material because it means all tools and surface would be heavily contaminated then. Could be ok at home but way to risky for me to gamble with that. Again with commercial grow. We can't afford to loose a whole batch.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28826007 -

Excellent work on the supplementation comparisons. The cheapest I can find wheat bran is $25/5lb. Luckily, I found a local feed store that brings in the soyhull pellets for $20/50lb, which have been getting 2.5# flushes on oysters from 6#blocks. But if that supply ever runs out, i'll check out the bluegrass option. You saved me a lot of trouble :thumbup:


--------------------

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