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Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix * 1
    #28636080 -

I moved to a new state a few years ago and am just getting back into cult after a long hiatus.

Masters mix has always been my go to. Ive found local sources for grain and hardwood pellets at a good price but I can't find any soy hulls due to it not being a very big crop in this state. Currently the best price I can find online after shipping is about $60 for a 50lb bag. Is there any reason I shouldn't be able to replace the soy hull pellets for another variety of pellets with close to the same nutrition content?

Seems like the average DMB (dry matter basis) of soy hulls is:
Crude Protein..    12.1%
Crude Fat.........    2.1%
Crude Fiber......  39.0%

In my area I can get Alfalfa pellets for $16 a 50lb bag with DMB:
Crude Protein..  17.0%
Crude Fat........    2.0 %
Crude Fiber.....  35.0%

and Bluegrass pellets for $12.50 a 50lb bag with DMB:
Crude Protein..  10.0%
Crude Fat........    2.0 %
Crude Fiber.....  25.0%

Im also getting wheat at $13.80 a 50lb bag with DMB:
Crude Protein..  10.0%
Crude Fat........    1.5 %
Crude Fiber.....    2.5%

I was considering making up for the lost nutrition by adding extra colonized wheat grain while spawning. Thinking I would just replace 1lb of dry SHP with 1lb of dry grain which would then be prepped, inoculated, and then spawned into bags of the hydrated hardwood pellets. Which would be a significant amount of spawn and would require me to introduce more grain jars and inoculant into my current process.

Also due to the other pellets having a high fiber % they act as a water reservoir along with the wood which the grain alone wouldn't replace, so you would have to make up for that lost moisture with more wood. Seems like this would substantially increase the volume of the fruiting block which would be a hinderance for my fruiting space.

Im thinking of picking up a bag of each the alfalfa and bluegrass pellets and run them head to head against the soy hull pellets while I still have some. Maybe also a mix of the alfalfa and bluegrass to try and get a closer match to the soy hull nutrition and add a bit extra wood to make up for the lower fiber %.

I'm not sure if the DMB values are even useful for mushroom growing, you might need a deeper analysis of nutrients for this to even make sense. I could be overthinking things and need to just go the bran or straw route:justdontknow:

March 12th

Finally getting around to spawning some bags.

I have 3 mycoquarts of both King blue oyster and Elm oyster, inoculated from the same agar cups. These are cultures from some LCs I purchased. The KBO seems pretty stable and this is my first run of the Elm.


Pressure cooked 4 different substrates for each mushroom today and will spawn in the morning. Bags were prepared as follows:

Masters Mix
- 1 pound Hardwood pellets
- 1 pound Soy hull pellets
- 3 pounds water
- Will be spawned with half a mycoquart of grain

Alfalfa Mix
- 1 pound Hardwood pellets
- 1 pound Alfalfa pellets
- 3 pounds water
- Will be spawned with half a mycoquart of grain

Bluegrass Mix
- 1 pound Hardwood pellets
- 1 pound Bluegrass pellets
- 3 pounds water
- Will be spawned with half a mycoquart of grain

Hardwood Mix
- 2 pounds Hardwood pellets
- 3 pounds water
- Will be spawned with 1.5 mycoquarts of grain

Pellets were hydrated with hot water in buckets before loading bags and PCing for 3 hours at 18psi.

Will update when I put them into fruiting.

March 27th

Was trying to wait to throw all the bags in the tent at the same time but the KBO that was spawned to the straight HWP had a lot of pinning so I threw it in by itself this morning.

The bluegrass seems to be performing about the same as the soy hulls with colonization rate so far. They’ll probably go into the tent this weekend along with the other HWP bag. the Alfalfa has been the slowest growing so far so they might not get in the tent until mid next week.



April 4th

All bags are in the tent except for the Alfalfa which should be ready in another couple days.

Really liking the speed and pinset on the pure HWP but everything else is chuggin along right behind it.


April 5th

Got the first harvests from the pure HWP bags. Pretty minuscule compared to what I’m used to with masters mix.
9.7oz on the king blues and 5.3oz on the Elms.

April 8th

Harvested the Masters mix and Bluegrass bags today. King blues on the masters mix put out 14.5oz, the elm did 10.6oz. While the king blues on the bluegrass did 18.7oz and the elm 11.1oz.

First 2 pics are the Masters mix and the second 2 are the Bluegrass


Also noticed some pins on the alfalfa bags today so they finally went in the tent. For whatever reason they were quite a bit slower than all the rest.

April 17th

Got the first harvests off the Alfalfa bags this morning. While they were nicely sized fruits the harvest was still a bit small compared to the masters mix and bluegrass mix. The KBO put out 9.5oz and the Elm only 5.5oz


The 2nd flushes are coming in on the KBO HWP, MM, and BG bags while the EO bags haven’t shown any new growth yet.

I’ll be leaving tomorrow for 10 days but have someone to watch the mush and get harvest pictures and weights if needed while I’m gone.

Gotta say bluegrass seems to be shaping up to be my go to from now on. We’ll see what happens on the 2nd flushes and then I’m gonna trash the bags and conclude this experiment so I can get my next run started.

April 26th

The KBO HWP bag only put out 3.5oz on its second flush and the picture of the harvest got lost in the void.

April 27th

The second flush of KBO on Masters mix came out to 5.5oz and the EO 8.6oz. While on the Bluegrass bags we got 4.9oz KBO and 17.9oz EO. These weights seem off to me by just looking at the pictures. The person watching them knows how to use a scale so I’m not sure what happened.


April 28th

Second flush of Elm oyster on the HWP gave 6.7oz


May 5th

5.3oz for the second flush of KBO on the Alfalfa mix


May 7th

And last but not least we got 5.6oz of Elm oyster on the Alfalfa mix


- - - - Harvests - - - -

                                    Flush 1        Flush2
Pure HWP (KBO)                9.7oz.        3.5oz
Pure HWP (EO)                  5.3oz.        6.7oz

Masters Mix (KBO)            14.5oz.        5.5oz
Masters Mix (EO)              10.6oz.        8.6oz

Bluegrass (KBO)                18.7oz.        4.9oz
Bluegrass (EO)                  11.1oz.      17.9oz

Alfalfa (KBO)                      9.5oz.        5.3oz
Alfalfa (EO)                        5.5oz.        5.6oz

Conclusion

While I was away during the second half of this grow it looks like there may have been some errors in the recording of the harvests. Pair that with harvests being at varying levels of maturity and a fluctuating climate in the Martha I’m finding it hard to make any solid conclusions about this experiment.

Ultimately though I was just looking to see what the general performance of these other pellets were compared to soy hulls. And really the biggest difference I could tell was the morphology of the fruits in the different substrates. I’m sure if I ran this again for multiple flushes and hydrated between flushes the final yields would near each other. I also think the stability of the oyster cultures may have played a roll in the wide range of yields

And while I enjoy the convenience of not having to PC the pure HWP bags I think I’m gonna continue using supplemented blocks since I’m only planning on running bags for 2 flushes. Bluegrass pellets are the cheapest around for me and I like how they did so I’ll be switching to them once my soy hulls are gone

Soooooo to wrap it up, don’t let soy hulls hold your wallet hostage if they’re not readily available in your area and try out some other pellets you can find locally. You might like the results. Thanks for reading ✌️

Ps. I typed this out all on my phone and the flush harvest columns were a little tricky so hopefully the formatting isn’t all fucked up on your side. Here’s a screenshot of that section incase it is:



Edited by TPython (05/07/24 11:42 PM)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28636285 -

Soy is also hard to find here. And HWFP are 4x-7x the price elsewhere... I have searched in about 200 mile radius

Calling every lumber and feed mill around I was able to find a feed store that has soy hull pellet mix.
It has very small amounts of corn and sunflower seeds in it but it works great for me. I use a little less hwfp in mine, water ratio about the same and have had 0 issues.
I get 10 50lb bags for $75 but it's about an hour drive there.

Before that I used rice bran pretty well(lm did great, oysters were a little better on SHP) but came with loads of bugs before I had my extra freezer. Some feed stores/grain mills are infested, they all have eggs.

The bran came with larval worms. My oats/millet come with moths. SHP comes with weevils. Or they will hatch within a month, pretty standard.
I recommend freezing any grains for 3 days you won't use within a few weeks

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: SonOfAHooker]
    #28636298 -

Sweet, I would definitely drive an hour for that price. Maybe not in a diesel tho haha.

Luckily haven't had any problems with insects in any of my stuff. Im sure that's a bitch.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28636475 -

im curious how alfalfa and bluegrass would do. i also cant get my hands on soyhull here. its frustrating considering soy is grown all around me, but seems the large mashing plants are located far to the south of me, in midwest US.


--------------------

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: taku]
    #28636858 -

It's at least worth an experiment or 2. Just spawned some bags yesterday so I'll have to do it on my next run, which at my current rate will be a month or so away before I can have some results.

Im thinking Ill run Lions mane, Elm oyster, and King blue oyster with 4 fruiting blocks each. 1 the traditional masters mix, 1 with alfalfa, 1 with bluegrass, and 1 with a mix of the 2 and see what happens.

If they don't preform well I'll give it to a neighbor for their horses and start looking into bran instead.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 1
    #28659479 -

I've never used soy hulls because of similar reasons.

I buy rice bran.  A fifty pound bag lasts me a long time supplementing at 10% I think (I'd have to check my notes).  I mostly grow LM and Oyster varieties (Black Pearl and Phoenix).  All do great on it  Still figuring out Shiitake but I think my issues with it are environmental.

I buy it from chewey or fleet farm (if you have those).  Either way I think I pay about a dollar a pound.

Curious how your experiments go!  Would love to supplement with more fiber.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (02/14/24 10:58 AM)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog]
    #28659580 -

Maybe I’ll have to experiment with bran supplementation in the future. Was mostly interested in the other pellets because of the local availability, where I can get pretty much all my supplies within my same small town. And would be able to run the exact same process but with a different pellet.

Right now I’m sitting at about $2.30 per 5lb fruiting block for all the consumables, including the grow bag. But if the alfalfa preforms the same give or take I can get it down to $1.75. There’s also a local mill that produces cheap fuel pellets but they’re made from Fir shavings instead of hardwood so I’ll have to do some more tests with that also haha. If that all works well then I’d be down to a final price of $1.18 which is really where I’d like to be.

Seems like my next few runs are gonna be figuring all this out and seeing what will work best for me for the price but I think it will be worth it in the end because I really enjoy growing shrooms and hope to expand over time.

Where I used to live I had a small no till plot and aquaponics greenhouse that I would provide the local community with produce from so I’m hyped to finally be growing again and hope to do the same thing here in my new location.

I will update with my final plan as soon as I have more space in my grow tent and am beginning the spawning process on this experiment.
:toast:

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28659592 -

I tried to post that "I'm monitoring this thread" picture but didn't find it in the smileys..

Anyway I'm monitoring this thread. I might soon step up to supplemented subs and I don't have access to HWFP, sawdust or soy hulls so I'm very interested in these other options. I do have access to straw pellets (currently in use), alfalfa pellets, sunflower pellets, fir fuel pellets and wheat bran.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: spasm666]
    #28659597 -

I believe that “monitoring this thread” pic is under the images tab for future reference.

Welcome to the party Spasm, hopefully we can learn a lil something here:rockon:

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 1
    #28659724 -

Nice on the aquaponics!

I've done my homework on it but haven't found the time to set a system up.  Looks like I'm going to be knee-deep in projects this spring.  Maybe next year!


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog] * 3
    #28697318 -

March 12th

Finally getting around to spawning some bags.

I have 3 mycoquarts of both King blue oyster and Elm oyster, inoculated from the same agar cups. These are cultures from some LCs I purchased. The KBO seems pretty stable and this is my first run of the Elm.


Pressure cooked 4 different substrates for each mushroom today and will spawn in the morning. Bags were prepared as follows:

Masters Mix
- 1 pound Hardwood pellets
- 1 pound Soy hull pellets
- 3 pounds water
- Will be spawned with half a mycoquart of grain

Alfalfa Mix
- 1 pound Hardwood pellets
- 1 pound Alfalfa pellets
- 3 pounds water
- Will be spawned with half a mycoquart of grain

Bluegrass Mix
- 1 pound Hardwood pellets
- 1 pound Bluegrass pellets
- 3 pounds water
- Will be spawned with half a mycoquart of grain

Hardwood Mix
- 2 pounds Hardwood pellets
- 3 pounds water
- Will be spawned with 1.5 mycoquarts of grain

Pellets were hydrated with hot water in buckets before loading bags and PCing for 3 hours at 18psi.

Will update when I put them into fruiting.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28702792 -

we used wheat bran when we couldn't find soyhull pellets but we did find a plentiful of loose soy hulls non pelletized hate using them its like dust but deftly not bad
Also just used pine fuel pellets oysters flushed out nice

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: mycoheadonaut]
    #28702834 -

Yeah I’ve heard good things about wheat bran. I think my next run I’m gonna mess around with some fir pellets that come from a local mill, and some aspen sawdust/wood chips that we produce from our property and see how they do up against the hardwood.

Was more curious about how the alfalfa and bluegrass would do because they’re fairly close nutrition wise, come in a pelletized form and seem more available than soy hulls in many places.

So far the pure hardwood pellets with the extra grain spawn added is ripping through the bag compared to the others which is expected from all the extra inoculation points. Definitely going to be colonized before all the others

Edited by TPython (03/17/24 07:54 PM)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28702872 -

Where do you guys source wheat bran from?

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28703788 -

I usually grab rice bran from a feed store or order it off chewy it's about the same price.

I didn't find a cheap source for wheat bran.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (03/18/24 05:32 PM)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog]
    #28704103 -

Cool, thanks man I’ll check that out

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 2
    #28704880 -

Similar problem here, not because we can't source the soy, but because we are an organic certified mushroom farm, we need to make sure the supplements we use are also certified.

We found going with pure HWFP (so no supplement) was easy for various reasons - if you can find an untreated, pressure sterilised HWFP then they are incredibly resistant to contamination. We found this to be so much so that we didn't have to sterilise the grow bags prior to mixing in the spawn like you would usually have to do with masters mix. The downside is you have to use more spawn if you want to keep the biological efficiency the same, and that without the supplement the general yield was lower. This did save time, effort, and (expensive) energy in the sterilisation process though, which meant we could run more bags for the same cost.

I literally have some grow bags of soaked, unsterilised HWFP sitting in the farm that have been there for about 3 months now - unsealed, still wet, seeing how long it will take before something happens to them.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: Bootes]
    #28704903 -

Awesome thanks for the input Bootes. Do you have any data on what the difference in yield was between supplemented and unsupplemented by chance?

If it’s within 10% than I’m leaning towards going with the fuel pellets and extra spawn due to the quicker colonization and ease of the non sterile spawning. I don’t currently have a flow hood so the process of spawning in a SAB is very cumbersome and time consuming.

I only PCed the bags with just wood pellets in them this time to keep the variable consistent between each substrate but not having to do that would be very nice.

I can also get 50lb bags of wheat for about the same price as these pellets I’m testing so ultimately it would end up being the same cost with the added spawn anyways. Or actually would be cheaper because of not having to PC

Currently the bluegrass substrate is keeping up with the colonization rate of the masters mix while the Alfalfa is going a bit slower. Will still be interesting to see how they preform.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28705898 -

If you can dial in your bulk mix, depending on what you are growing, then you can top out B/E over 130%+ on the first flush. With just HWFP we find the B/E is closer to 60-70%. We do however have the ability to run about 100kg a week without sterilising which would otherwise cost us a tonne in utilities as well as time spent waiting.

We have an atmospheric steriliser and PC that we use now and then for various bits (cordyceps mainly, and spawn and agar in the PC) but otherwise its pretty easy. We have a flow hood/clean room for the sterile work but most is done in the open in the warehouse for ease.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: Bootes]
    #28705919 -

Awesome, thanks for that info I appreciate it

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28705961 -

Alfalfa, or lucerne pellets work just as well as soy pellets.


--------------------
We are all in this together.
Visit my site, forestfungi.com.au, let me know what you think.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: worowa]
    #28705988 -

worowa said:
Alfalfa, or lucerne pellets work just as well as soy pellets.


Were gonna see. Is that what you use or have tried it before?

The thing I’m worried about now is that my King Blues like to pin at a bit lower temperatures so now that it’s warming up here I’m hoping it doesn’t mess up this experiment too much. The elm oysters should be fine though

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 1
    #28716166 -

March 27th

Was trying to wait to throw all the bags in the tent at the same time but the KBO that was spawned to the straight HWP had a lot of pinning so I threw it in by itself this morning.

The bluegrass seems to be performing about the same as the soy hulls with colonization rate so far. They’ll probably go into the tent this weekend along with the other HWP bag. the Alfalfa has been the slowest growing so far so they might not get in the tent until mid next week.


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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 1
    #28722937 -

April 4th

All bags are in the tent except for the Alfalfa which should be ready in another couple days.

Really liking the speed and pinset on the pure HWP but everything else is chuggin along right behind it.


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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28723569 -

Interesting thread !
Would be interesting if at the end, pure HWP work better.

I am currently playing with wheat bran.I read somewhere that the best amount was 15/20% but I am trying with 90/10 up to 50/50. With more bags and different species (few oysters and lion's mane). Will update you of the result

Lot of Alfalfa available in my area, I will for sure give it a try in the next few week. Even a mix of wheat bran, alfalfa and hwp.

I also heard of sunflower husk pellet, some of you did try this one?

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28723610 -

GRETO said:
Interesting thread !
Would be interesting if at the end, pure HWP work better.

I am currently playing with wheat bran.I read somewhere that the best amount was 15/20% but I am trying with 90/10 up to 50/50. With more bags and different species (few oysters and lion's mane). Will update you of the result

Lot of Alfalfa available in my area, I will for sure give it a try in the next few week. Even a mix of wheat bran, alfalfa and hwp.

I also heard of sunflower husk pellet, some of you did try this one?


Yeah please do update on how the wheat bran trials go for you. I’m thinking of experimenting with bran and softwood next so it would be nice to see what ratio does best for you.

Haven’t tried sunflower husk yet. These were just the cheapest and most available pellets in my area that have a close nutrition value to soy hulls.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28725373 -

Sure ! The test bags are currently in my steamer.
Will also buy a 25kg bag of sunflower pellet, it is so cheap that it require a test.

Softwood would be an interesting. I heard anything and everything about softwood. Got some antifongic resin so it won't grow, grow but weird taste, can make mutations, ok for oyster not for lion's mane or the opposite

Then I land on a producer instagram page @themushroomshopllc based in new york who use 70% pine sawdust 30% soy hull and WOW, i think they grow the biggest flush I ever seen in my life

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28725530 -

Pine pellets are probably aged and composted enough that the resins are gone.  I have a bag upstairs I was using as cat litter at one point.  I'll give it a try with oysters this year and see how it does.

I think there are also some technically softwoods that get counted as hardwood because they don't contain resins.  Like aspen, for example.

Which I also have around because of pets...  so I'd be willing to test that one too with oysters this year because why not?


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog]
    #28725811 -

That’s kinda what got me on this current testing spree tree frog, “why not”. I’m not a commercial producer that can’t afford any experimentation so I figured might as well take the next couple runs to figure out how the different cheap materials I can get a hold of preform.

Aspen was the main thing I was thinking of cause there’s a shit load of it in my area but it usually comes in the form of bedding material.There’s also a wood pellet plant close by that makes them out of a fir mix so I’m not sure how that would preform but for $4 for a 50lb sack it’s worth a shot.

If I can get Bluegrass pellets and aspen to work well then I think I could get my price per bag to under a dollar

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28725872 -

Are you also using soy hulls?

I need to order some.  I don't think they're economical for me right now, but I might be able to find better sources.

But to do a side by side with other stuff I need the control lol


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog]
    #28725890 -

Yeah that’s why I wanted to run these side by sides while I still have some soy hulls left because I don’t think I’ll be ordering anymore after this bag is gone.

The shipping on those 50lb bags are steep!

The pure hardwood pellet bags seem to be putting out skinnier fruits with smaller caps almost like how oysters grow without enough FAE while the traditional masters mix and blue grass bags are putting out the thicker more compact clusters like I’m used to. I was expecting more or less the same looking fruits with maybe a smaller yield off the pure HWP but it actually seems like the lack of nutrition is also changing the growth characteristics.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28725892 -

Yeah, the supplements are usually to add protein and maybe even fat I believe.  Grains have plenty of carbs already so that's not an issue really.  Upping the grain amount can help because grains do have protein and fat too.  But it's more efficient to use something else because they're mostly sugars.

Soy hulls I think add protein and lignin both.  So it can basically replace the supplement and 50% of the hard wood.

It's like nutrient rich straw, essentially.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (04/04/24 01:44 PM)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog] * 1
    #28725917 -

Ahhhh i see, that makes sense. I’m glad I ended up running this experiment instead of blindly sticking to masters mix. While the colonization time of the HWP with the extra spawn was very fast and the benefit of not having to pressure cook would be nice, so far I’m not really liking the look of the fruits



Pure HWP on the left and bluegrass on the right.
Albeit a couple days apart in growth so it’s still a little early for a final comparison. I’m ultimately interested in the ending yields between them all though

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28726003 -

I think the main benefit of master's mix is super nice first flushes rather than pure biological efficiency too.

Like, I believe that over multiple flushes, protein supplements do as well as master's mix.

But because of how bio-available everything is with master's mix the colony can support a massive first flush.  And then the cultivator can dump the block in the compost, because the second flush won't be nearly as good (as far as I understand).  Rinse, repeat.

With supplemented blocks, I let things flush two or more times to catch up.  Which is a less efficient use of my fruiting space.  But, soy hulls are expensive, and I've never used them, so I don't have the dopamine fix those giant flushes probably give :lol:


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog] * 1
    #28726011 -

Sorry to double post, but I just had a thought.

A mix of some sort of pellet straw, or maybe corn cob actually for texture and moisture, and supplements would be similar to soy hulls.

I came across this paper recently while researching corn cobs more generally, and dug through it more just now.  This was done with shiitake and 50% of the substrate was corn cob.  It outperformed the supplemented sawdust control by 40% on the first flush.  Which I think is similar to how master's mix compares to supplemented sawdust without soy hulls.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/354401632_Corncob_as_a_Substrate_for_the_Cultivation_of_Lentinula_edodes

Quote:
The results revealed the feasibility to substitute corncob for
sawdust in L. edodes production in terms of ecological and
economic benefits, and a high-yield formula (E: 50% corn-
cob, 28% oak sawdust, 20% wheat bran, 2% gypsum) was
obtained. Using formula E to produce L. edodes, the single
log yield was as high as 722.08g/log, increased by 40.39%
comparing to the control, showing an excellent boosting
effect. The proportion of corncob in this formula reaches
50%, which can effectively reduce the use of sawdust and
make good use of agricultural waste, thus lowering material
cost and reducing environment burden



--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (04/04/24 03:39 PM)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog]
    #28726053 -

That’s been my experience with MM. Big ol first flush and then maybe half the weight if not less on the second and then I trash em. So I guess letting these bags go for 2-3 flushes would get the best data for how they preform up against each other. Seems like with how big of a cash crop soy is in the US that the hulls would be widely available but it doesn’t seem to be. Maybe in the South it’s a different story.

Wow I’ll have to give that a deeper read later that’s really interesting. Would be awesome to find a place that processes canned corn and try and get some of their cob waste for probably next to nothing.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 1
    #28731135 -

April 5th

Got the first harvests from the pure HWP bags. Pretty minuscule compared to what I’m used to with masters mix.
9.7oz on the king blues and 5.3oz on the Elms.

April 8th

Harvested the Masters mix and Bluegrass bags today. King blues on the masters mix put out 14.5oz, the elm did 10.6oz. While the king blues on the bluegrass did 18.7oz and the elm 11.1oz.

First 2 pics are the Masters mix and the second 2 are the Bluegrass


Also noticed some pins on the alfalfa bags today so they finally went in the tent. For whatever reason they were quite a bit slower than all the rest.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28731643 -

Looks like a bluegrass mix could be worth experimenting with

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: MushroomMik]
    #28731667 -

Yeah I’m actually really digging it so far. At this point I don’t see any reason to buy the expensive soy hulls since the bluegrass is preforming just as well.

Interested to see how the alfalfa does being that it colonized quite a bit slower

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28731670 -

Well I got some corn cob bedding in the mail today. I'm going to try running both actives and edibles on it. My plan with the edibles is to replace half the sawdust.

If it does well I will buy some big bags of pelletized corn cobs. It's pretty affordable at tractor supply, like $11 for a 40 lb bag or something.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog]
    #28731673 -

tree frog said:
Well I got some corn cob bedding in the mail today. I'm going to try running both actives and edibles on it. My plan with the edibles is to replace half the sawdust.

If it does well I will buy some big bags of pelletized corn cobs. It's pretty affordable at tractor supply, like $11 for a 40 lb bag or something.


Looking forward to seeing how that goes tree frog! That’s the price range I’m happy at. $60 for 40lbs of soy hulls and $30 for 40lbs of smoker HWP was just too much.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28731677 -

Oh yeah I get the fuel pellets that aren't made for smoking. You can get hardwood fuel pellets for like 5 bucks for a 40 lb bag. They're used for pellet stoves instead of smoking.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog]
    #28731688 -

Yeah I’ve got some good sources now but when I first started with the smoker pellets and soy hulls I was like holy shit this is not sustainable😄

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28731704 -

:lol: yeah definitely not for those prices hey


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28732573 -

It's pretty difficult to find bluegrass pellets online. What do they normally go for at a mill?

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: MushroomMik]
    #28732699 -

I grabbed em at $12.50 for a 50lb sack at a local farm and feed store. Same place I get my grain

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28738725 -

I do not have photo for now but 9 days after inoculation, I can see a big difference between bags.
10% and 20% wheatbran bags are way slower than 40% and 50% bags.
10 and 20% are about half colonized.
In the 40/50, the bags is already well colonised, they just need little bit of time to get their white crust.

I can't wait to put them to fruit.
If the difference in yield is as good as the difference in time, it promises to be good.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28738916 -

Glad they’re coming along nicely. How much grain did you spawn to each bag?

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28739258 -

With a 0.5kg jar I do 4 5kg bags so 2-3% of millet grain each.
I did also test difference spawn ratio between rye and millet. I get same colonization speed with 3% millet and 8% rye ratio. Thanks to his small size, lot of colonization point.
Did not seen any difference in yield but use half qtt of grain and so half qtt of jars hahaha. Jars take so much spaces I am happy with that

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28740816 -

Here are the photo, they speak for themselves




The biggest difference for now is with black pearl, 20% one looks like I inoculated them 3 days ago haha

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28740826 -

Lookin good Greto👍

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 1
    #28741011 -

April 17th

Got the first harvests off the Alfalfa bags this morning. While they were nicely sized fruits the harvest was still a bit small compared to the masters mix and bluegrass mix. The KBO put out 9.5oz and the Elm only 5.5oz


The 2nd flushes are coming in on the KBO HWP, MM, and BG bags while the EO bags haven’t shown any new growth yet.

I’ll be leaving tomorrow for 10 days but have someone to watch the mush and get harvest pictures and weights if needed while I’m gone.

Gotta say bluegrass seems to be shaping up to be my go to from now on. We’ll see what happens on the 2nd flushes and then I’m gonna trash the bags and conclude this experiment so I can get my next run started.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28753110 -

Great growlog you got here!

:popcorn:


--------------------
"A single lifetime in this density can accomplish a refinement of Will that might take far longer in a realm where the truth is always visible" - Zii, Confederation of Planets, GFL Station.

"You will then have national and global contact around 2026." - Pleiadian Prophecy 2020

PROJECT BLUE BOOK ANALYSIS (PDF Download) - 312 pages! | Psychedelics & UFOs | Ready to Contact UFOs? | The Source on Mushrooms:shroomeryhead:Canned Computer Duster SAB Tek 👨‍🔬 | Trippy Gematrix | Dj TeknoLogical | Fentanyl Test Kits | R.I.P. Big Worm :tombstone: || The Start of the Ascension Process was 2020. 🌎🌍🌏                                                         
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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: LogicaL Chaos] * 1
    #28753274 -

Thanks LC!

Getting back home today so we’ll see if they’re still alive and if I have some more harvest data to log. But it was my sister watching them after all so I’m not expecting much haha

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 3
    #28758685 -

Update about wheat bran supplementation.
With 10 bags 10 to 20% bran vs 10 bags 40 to 50% bran.
I can say that it is twice everything.
More supplemented are Twice as fast to colonize the bag, twice as fast to start pinning. Way more pins with 40-50% bags.
And on first flush, I got 300-500g with 10-20 and 600g min up to 1kg with 40-50 for oyster.
I feel that the density of my substrate also play in the game. Like sawdust from my pellet is so thin that it could make my substrate to dense and so myc got trouble to colonize well
For Lion mane I did not see so much difference in yield. Also faster to colonize but yield were the same.
I did not see difference between 40 and 50% bag so far also.
Will see if with second flush, the less supplemented catch up but I do not think so

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28758968 -

Interesting. The standard everyone always states is that with 20% you get the most benefit from your supplementation. But if 40-50% doubles everything now that's something. Maybe you could do a test using some coarse, low-nutrient material that helps with the density, so you could see if it's the nutes or if density plays a part.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28758989 -

With 10-20% rice bran my Lion's Mane put out three solid flushes generally.

If high supplements helps LM, I bet you'll see the increased BE by getting larger second, third, and maybe even fourth flushes.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28759246 -

Very interesting! :takingnotes:

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #28759955 -

Yeah, I definitely need to do more test. I also read everywhere that 20% was the best and more could be a problem but I see the opposite for now. One thing could also be that put more bran increase a lot the risk of contam but so far no contam for me with this mix.

I suspect that density could be the trigger more that the nitrogen content. Actually, I feel that I do not myself get good results with 20% when lot of people are so I keep that in mind.
I still have lot of room in my fruiting room so I will let thoose bag fruit up to 4-5 flushs if needed to see if maybe, the more supplemented one give one big first flush then caught up by the less supplemented. Or if they are trully better yielder flush after flush.

My next batch is 30% bran, 8 days in incubation and look well for now. As well as the 40/50% bags i woud say. Tell in few days about the yield.

I purchased some straw pellet and will try in the next week what I call for now the TRIPLE MIX. 1/3 sawdust pellet 1/3 straw pellet 1/3 wheat bran

@tree frog, as i said, on first flush, I didn't seen difference in yield for LM, only faster colonization. In fact, LM were the only one with which I got good result with 20% compare to oyster where I struggling to get decent yield.  Will see with more flush

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28759980 -

In our quest for the perfect substitute to soy hull, I also tried to compare nutritional of soy hull vs other crop residues easily available in my country (France). With the help of the website feedtables. I am aware that content could vary but it is still a good starting point.

My focus is on rapeseed and sunflower meal. Alone they have way more protein and less fiber than soy hull but mixed with straw, I can get pretty similar figures.
Here are figures for 40% Sunflower meal, oil < 5%, non dehulled + 60% wheat straw. If based on a 50% HWSP master mix would mean 50% HWSP, 20% sunflower meal, 30% straw.


I understand than meals are obtained by oil extraction : mechanical pressure followed by solvent extraction. It's the SOLVENT that bugs me a bit. It's hard to find any information on this subject. Which solvent? What is left of this solvent in the meals? It is used for animal feed so maybe it is not bad to consume but mushroom are known to easily acculumate some have to be careful with that I think...

However, if we just look at the nutritional content, that sounds encouraging

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28760015 -

They can accumulate heavy metals in the fruit bodies, which should be well regulated in feed stock.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog] * 1
    #28760129 -

It is also what I thinked but difficult to find information. What could be ok for animal feed could still be high enough so mushroom accumulate risky amount.
Still need to continue my research.
Trying to make people eat healthier with mushroom and ending poisoning them would be a shame hahaha

Edited by GRETO (05/03/24 08:26 AM)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28760457 -

Looking forward to hear your further test results.

If I may vote please do more tests with supplemented straw pellets (especially with wheat bran, alfalfa or sunflower) :grin: I've done two years of straight straw pellets and will be soon starting to supplement and any data related to this would be greatly appreciated.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: spasm666] * 1
    #28765930 -

Nice GRETO! Thanks for sharing that👍

I just harvested the second flush off the last bag this morning so here’s my final update on this lil experiment here. It kind of fell apart on the back half of the grow but I think I still learned what I wanted and there’s some pretty good data here so I’m fairly happy with how it turned out.

April 26th

The KBO HWP bag only put out 3.5oz on its second flush and the picture of the harvest got lost in the void.

April 27th

The second flush of KBO on Masters mix came out to 5.5oz and the EO 8.6oz. While on the Bluegrass bags we got 4.9oz KBO and 17.9oz EO. These weights seem off to me by just looking at the pictures. The person watching them knows how to use a scale so I’m not sure what happened.


April 28th

Second flush of Elm oyster on the HWP gave 6.7oz


May 5th

5.3oz for the second flush of KBO on the Alfalfa mix


May 7th

And last but not least we got 5.6oz of Elm oyster on the Alfalfa mix


- - - - Harvests - - - -

                                    Flush 1        Flush2
Pure HWP (KBO)                9.7oz.        3.5oz
Pure HWP (EO)                  5.3oz.        6.7oz

Masters Mix (KBO)            14.5oz.        5.5oz
Masters Mix (EO)              10.6oz.        8.6oz

Bluegrass (KBO)                18.7oz.        4.9oz
Bluegrass (EO)                  11.1oz.      17.9oz

Alfalfa (KBO)                      9.5oz.        5.3oz
Alfalfa (EO)                        5.5oz.        5.6oz

Conclusion

While I was away during the second half of this grow it looks like there may have been some errors in the recording of the harvests. Pair that with harvests being at varying levels of maturity and a fluctuating climate in the Martha I’m finding it hard to make any solid conclusions about this experiment.

Ultimately though I was just looking to see what the general performance of these other pellets were compared to soy hulls. And really the biggest difference I could tell was the morphology of the fruits in the different substrates. I’m sure if I ran this again for multiple flushes and hydrated between flushes the final yields would near each other. I also think the stability of the oyster cultures may have played a roll in the wide range of yields

And while I enjoy the convenience of not having to PC the pure HWP bags I think I’m gonna continue using supplemented blocks since I’m only planning on running bags for 2 flushes. Bluegrass pellets are the cheapest around for me and I like how they did so I’ll be switching to them once my soy hulls are gone

Soooooo to wrap it up, don’t let soy hulls hold your wallet hostage if they’re not readily available in your area and try out some other pellets you can find locally. You might like the results. Thanks for reading ✌️

Ps. I typed this out all on my phone and the flush harvest columns were a little tricky so hopefully the formatting isn’t all fucked up on your side. Here’s a screenshot of that section incase it is:

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28820993 -

Hey,
I am using raw sawdust and wheat bran for one month now.
I can now say for sure that the nitrogen was not the trigger but the density of my pellet was.
With pellet which were really thin powder once watered, I had to add at least 30% and get best result with 40% bran, compare to 10-20% with what my bags struggled to colonize.
Now that I use sawdust which is more crudder. I got best result between 25% and 30% bran. Still higher than the usually recommended 15% then.
Better than that, as it is more voluminous, I can't put 5kg in a bag without getting to the filter so I only put 4kg (wet). And I get same result as 5kg with 40% bran. Amazing ! WIth 1.8 (4lbs) dry matter, I usually get between 1 and 1.5 kg (2-3lbs) and best bags evan give me back the 1.8kg in mushroom.
I did try 40-50% and there is no difference in colonization time or yield so I stay at 25% as bran is more expensive that sawdust, why poor more for no better result.

Regarding the sunflower and rapeseed meal, I had to delay my test. I am in the process of obtaining organic certification and it is impossible to find small quantity of organic Sunflower or rapeseed meal. Only available in Tons. If it do not work well, I am fucked

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28821458 -

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Density definitely plays an important role. I'll be sure to take that account when I soon start exploring recipes. 1.8kg from a 4kg block is truly astonishing!

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: spasm666]
    #28821755 -

Very nice data points GRETO thank you for that info! Are you making this new sawdust yourself, and do you know what species?

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28821993 -

Sure, here more details :
1.8 kg is really the beeeeeest I can get with 3 flush with my best strains. Not happening on every bags ! Maybe 10% give me amazing results. Best one so far give 1kg first flush but shitty second flush. Not the best one commercially so but I never seen a oyster cluster like this one.
It is really dependent on 2nd flush :

As on average, I get between 0.6 - 0.8 Kg first flush (pretty consistent on that, not big diff on each bags) but then the myc decide if it want to remain my friend. Some bags give my a second flush near the first one. Some only grow fews; It is why my yield can go from single to double.

Then the third flush is usually pretty weak. I am not a full capacity so I let the blocks a little bit longer in FC. It give nice shaped mushroom,  bigger than other flush but only few in qtt from 0.1-0.2 more

EDIT : I like testing and one of my fav is cutting bag test. For me it really change everything. Large cross, small cross, U, H, multiple holes...
I found that some species prefer the usual cross cut and other really trive with a rectangle shape cut. Also, I am trying to help second flush by making a second rectangular cut. Like Go from a U to a H.
Not always working, but when it work, I got a second massive pinset

Edited by GRETO (06/21/24 08:41 PM)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO] * 1
    #28821998 -

TPython, I do not make my sawdust, I found firewood seller in the village next to mine and it is half the price of pellet :thumbup: 100% beech wood.

I am in a hot aera in the south of France. All these numbers I gave are made with my actual champion : Florida Oyster which looks to like my weather. Only thing is that as it do massive pinset, it could strave for O2 and so make some stem (customer do not seems to be bothered)


I also do golden osyter which are way less good yielder, italian oyster, I struggle with pin all over the bag with them so not best yield.
And Lion's Mane, my fav. Yield and shape is for me really erratic but what a flusher. I have some bags that are on their 5 flush and still give little fruit. Piopino and Chestnut are incubation.
Black Pearl, Eryngii and others cold weather now do not fruit.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28822091 -

Beautiful pinset.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: deadmandave]
    #28822096 -

Yeah I figured 1.8kg is not your everyday yield. I'm hoping to get 1kg with first flush (I only do one flush).

Nice find on the beech sawdust.

Also the different cuts are interesting. Have you tried just a single slit? Someone said it worked out the best for him. Easiest to harvest with the least sub to clean off the cluster. But yeah cut styles is something to play with.

I agree with deadmandave, beautiful pinset. Epic.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28822104 -

Nice score on the sawdust! I’ve been planning on starting another trial using dust that comes off of our Alaskan chainsaw mill setup that we run but it’s mostly pine trees. I’m just interested to see what the production difference between that and the hardwood pellets I’ve been using would be. *most of this wood has been dead standing for years, so I would expect any strong pine antifungal properties have been aged out*

That pic you posted above is one of the best oyster pinsets I’ve ever seen! A beautiful culture that seems like it’s found its home with you. Thank you for showing your findings here

Please don’t be a stranger to starting your own thread GRETO! It seems you’ve been doing a lot of great work with gourmets and we would all love to hear about your findings. I just don’t want your work to end up getting buried with my shabby experiment post haha.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 1
    #28822259 -

People lurk this thread.  Like me :lol:

If GRETO started a new thread, I would have missed it!  And I love all of the excellent information in this thread, and the experiments.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 2
    #28822268 -

Simple cut for Lion manes work very well! Big nice fruit.
I do not like it so much for oyster. As mine like to pin at the edge of the cut and the bag remaining tight. It give nice mushroom on the center and lot of blocked pins inside the bag on the edge. Get better with X cut as the bag loosen a bit. But I still prefer the U or H cut which as you can see work very well for me.

Give a try for sure with old pine! Lot of grower achieve good results with it! I heard that some pines species are even usable "fresh" as they do not contain that much of antifongic.

I will for sure make some thread about my different test and also about how I designed and build my tools + automation when it will be ready.Still need to make it digestible, with lot of pics, etc.
I am quite happy with my learning curve, fews months ago I was struggling with 50% rate contam and now I enjoy getting better and better results. Mushroom world is so amazing.
My mantra : TEST EVERYTHING ! I have convince that there is still lot to discover and improve.(Especially with sub composition, why your experiment is clearly not a shabby one !!!)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28822296 -

Are you all using gypsum at all?  It should help with substrate texture and may be a missing factor in optimal supplement ratios.

I bought a bag mostly to keep the pH stable, as I want to reuse blocks without having to rebalance the pH of spent blocks with lime.  But the pH stabilization has also been shown to improve vigor in experiments with Oyster mushrooms on grains, as it prevents the metabolic acids from oxidizing and altering the pH as the mycelium digests the food source. 

They also used lime in the study, but I haven't experimented with adding it to blocks yet.  If I did, I might try that same low ratio using both lime and gypsum (1% of each by dry weight).


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog]
    #28823450 -

Never used for now.
You try to use spent block? The energy content would not be extremely poor as the bag already give lot of fruit?

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28823614 -

Mycelium will run out of vigor before they run out of nutrition.  Or drop the pH to levels that they don't thrive at due to their own metabolic processes.  Both of these open up the colony to parasites and competitors.  Or simply reduce fruiting to such small flushes that it's not worth the space to keep the block running.  In all cases a lot of nutrition will be left in the block.

And you can re-supplement with grains/brans (at reduced ratios).  Or cut 50/50 spent blocks with fresh ones and basically keep the process going indefinitely (if you pH adjust everything).

Additionally, some species are more adapt at breaking down lignin than others.  As an example, sequencing blocks shiitake -> oyster -> wine caps allows the later two species to more easily access any nutrients in the lignin.  But, going oyster -> oyster - > oyster forever as long as you keep adding small bits of nutrients to the leftovers and adjusting the pH also works.

People are recycling cube grows now too.  Someone made a thread about it. I think they sterilized and reinoculated with an LC even to show how much nutrition is still avaiable.  And I've experimented a bit with repastuerizing (not even sterilizing) spent pan substrate and running more pans on it.  The few experiments I did didn't contaminate, but I haven't gotten around to running it again as I was more focused on dialing in my tent and casing.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

Edited by tree frog (06/23/24 10:31 AM)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog]
    #28823738 -

Interesting. Re-supplementing and inoculating spent blocks would save costs of new raw materials. But should be more labor so it's not a no-brainer at least in commercial growing though. I will soon try using spent LM blocks made of birch and wheat bran as the bulk material for oysters, supplementing with wheat bran.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: spasm666]
    #28824389 -

As spasm666, I do not think it is relevant for commercial use...

First, if it is not at least as efficient as new sub, there is no reason to do it. 
Like my raw material cost me 0.7€ per bag. Which mean I save 0,35€ if I use half spent block, right?
If on average, these blocks just give me 0.1kg less, I am loosing money by doing that. Even if same yield, time consumed to check, open and break old block added, I do not see how it can be relevant.

Second, contam with this kind of techniques.
After 2/3 flushs. Even if they look healthy, some of the blocks start to get little bacterial contam and it is not visible. I only found out because of the smell once I discard them and open the bag in half on my pile of compost.
I'm not too keen on putting large quantities of bacteria back into the cycle. Even if the pasteurization managed to kill them, I do not like at all working with dirty material because it means all tools and surface would be heavily contaminated then. Could be ok at home but way to risky for me to gamble with that. Again with commercial grow. We can't afford to loose a whole batch.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28826007 -

Excellent work on the supplementation comparisons. The cheapest I can find wheat bran is $25/5lb. Luckily, I found a local feed store that brings in the soyhull pellets for $20/50lb, which have been getting 2.5# flushes on oysters from 6#blocks. But if that supply ever runs out, i'll check out the bluegrass option. You saved me a lot of trouble :thumbup:


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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: GRETO]
    #28826235 -

I hear you on the economics of it.  It is labor-intensive and doesn't save much on materials.  As more of a hobby grower, I use it more as a means of responsible compost management.

Rather or not it's a bacterial problem depends a lot on workflow.  There are examples of workflows in Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms that would prevent any cross contamination, which is where I got the idea, as Stamets apparently has used it on his own farm to manage compost.

Anyway, I was more curious about the gypsum.  As it can help add texture, and you mentioned that might be a factor in your results with the high levels of supplements.  The SMS was more of an aside.

Also, I was curious and found this 2023 article, Nutrient Uptake in Supplemented Substrate by Oyster Mushroom.  I wasn't actually looking for SMS supplementation, but how gypsum played a role in supplements, as I wanted to see if the papers that produced the 15-20% ratio had used gypsum.  But, this is the conclusion of the paper.

Quote:
Supplementation with 15% SMS
provided productivity and biological efficiency of 25% and 107% in P. ostreatus, respectively, where under these
conditions the most consumed nutrients were Ca and K


I think people will enjoy reading it either way, there are a lot of excellent references to research on oyster mushroom supplementation and good science on the microbiology end of it.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: space.madness]
    #28826298 -

I personally really enjoy seeing your trials on recycling substrate tree frog. I agree with GRETO that it’s probably not viable for commercial growing but for taking what you have and spreading it out even further it’s nice to see that it’s possible.

I’ve been staying away from gypsum just because I see everyone talking about how it’s not needed but the pH stabilization sounds interesting to me. Have you been measuring the pH of your substrates? I think my well water might be bordering on being too basic so it would be nice if gypsum could help with buffering it to a better zone.

space.madness said:
Excellent work on the supplementation comparisons. The cheapest I can find wheat bran is $25/5lb. Luckily, I found a local feed store that brings in the soyhull pellets for $20/50lb, which have been getting 2.5# flushes on oysters from 6#blocks. But if that supply ever runs out, i'll check out the bluegrass option. You saved me a lot of trouble :thumbup:


That sounds like a solid price for soy hulls.  And you’re getting 2.5lb flushes from a 50/50 masters mix? Thats good shit👍

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 1
    #28826585 -

I am measuring my pH now.  But didn't think to check it on the recycled blocks until after I had made a few batches.  It was around 4.5 though when I did start measuring so I'm not expecting much from those first blocks.

Unfortunately due to health issues, travel early in the spring, and company coming I won't get a chance to run pH adjusted blocks this year. 

The batch I did adjust was inoculated with King Tuber, as well as a batch that wasn't adjusted.  And those will (hopefully) form sclerotia that I'll either harvest and fruit next summer, or in my Pan tent when it's up and running again.  But I believe they take 6 months or longer to be ready.  First time running them.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog]
    #28827568 -

Sorry about the health issues man, I hope you get well or are feeling better.

I’ll be looking forward to seeing your next grows! I need to start looking into sclerotia forming species, they seem pretty fun to mess around with

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython] * 1
    #28827696 -

Thanks!

The biggest reason I was interested in this species is because it likes to fruit at 100° (climate change proofing essentially).

And if I'm feeling froggy I might see if we can hybridize it with pink oyster someday.


--------------------
And if I only could
I'd make a deal with God
And I'd get him to swap our places
I'd be running up that road
Be running up that hill
With no problems

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: tree frog]
    #28829080 -

Yeah, still really interesting to test with SPS. As you said about different species degrade more or less organic matter, go from one specie to another could be interesting and maybe better than new raw material. Like imagine shitakee sps give better result with oyster, it would be amazing. But still lot of work from my point of view.
Regarding SPS/compost management, I am lucky to have some space and so I am now letting blocs in a shaded area at the back of my field and let bloc fruit to death. Not really good result as it become too hot now in my area, except from lion mane that seems to never stop fruiting. Then I do real compost by mixing sps with others garden waste.
And wow, this mix give wonderfull humus in less than 6 months. My tomatoes like it. (sorry for pic quality, it come from a video)

How lucky to have available soy hull in your area!
Difficult for me to find non GMO one and almost impossible to find organic one. Or at an indescent price !
But I'm not giving up hope

Edited by GRETO (06/28/24 05:55 AM)

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #28973673 -

This thread was really interesting. I wanted to test a few substrates in hopes of easing my addiction to soy hulls(sh).

I could not find blue grass pellets unfortunately.

I ran one trial with alfalfa and am in the middle of another round. What I experienced was blue oysters doing almost equal but not quite as good on alfalfa vs sh. Lions mane gave yield half as good as sh and black kings also performed at 50% and took a week extra to fruit.



In this pic of blues you can't really tell which bag is alfalfa and which is sh just based on appearance. (Sh on right alfalfa on left)



With lm the difference is obvious. Sh on left alfalfa on right.

Next I'm trying beet pulp and sh 50:50. So far the beet pulp bags took a little longer to colonize and the mycelium doesn't look as thick. Interestingly the blue oyster mycelium growing on beet pulp has the best smell. It's almost like honey/almond/apple blossom. I sometimes smell this on fresh oyster cultures in the lab but have never smelled it in the FC.

Prices for alfalfa would be around 700/ton and I just paid 900 for a ton of sh delivered. ರ⁠_⁠ರ

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #29019950 -

Hello! I'd like to replicate this experiment if possible but I can't seem to find Bluegrass Pellets. Where did you get them/what brand were they? Thank you


--------------------
God is good

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #29170227 -

This is amazing- thank you for doing the leg work. I’ve been having such a difficult time in the PNW securing soy hulls for my mushroom farm and have been contemplating doing a similar experiment.

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Re: Replacing Soy Hulls in Masters Mix [Re: TPython]
    #29172198 -

Is there a brand of alfalfa pellets you used? Someone suggested a 70/30 mix of HWFP and Standlee alfalfa pellets. Chewy sells that brand and I was going to order some, its organic so I'm wondering if thats the difference with the poor performance you experienced. I've used aspen HW pellets with soy hull and wheat straw pellets and wheat bran supplements with decent results, but not in the proportions you use, Im changing that.

Edited by ShroomDad (03/29/25 08:26 AM)

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