CreonAntigone said:

how do people square their belief in god with the horrors of the world?

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BrendanFlock said:

Karmic guides have the needed knowledge to take you from place to place.

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BrendanFlock said:

Karmic guides have the needed knowledge to take you from place to place.

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CreonAntigone said:

BrendanFlock said:

Karmic guides have the needed knowledge to take you from place to place.

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But is karma another fiction?

Karma in a very loose social sense exists, as in that soceity punishes those who do wrong, but only sometimes. Sometimes wicked individuals get away with it, slavery did exist for thousands of years. Many times terrible people do not face consequences.

Karma in the Hindu sense says that a past life must have influenced karma, to justify the difference between one's circumstances and what on deserves. So if someone is destitute despite being a good man, they must lie and say that it was due to some sin of the past, whereas in truth there's no such rational explanation.

My conclusion from what I've experienced so far is that life is not ruled by justice. That injustice exists is proof of that. One may argue there is some universal karma wherein, even if there is a bad thing here or there, it eventually gets corrected over the whole history. MLK's concept of the line of history 'bending toward justice' for example. I admit that some historical wrongs have been corrected, but it takes thousands of years. And new injustices arise. And if it bends towards justice, why wasn't it there to begin with, under the supervision of God?

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Quote:

“Pain insists upon being attended to. God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our consciences, but shouts in our pains. It is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world.”  --C.S. Lewis

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CreonAntigone said:

If he really does exist

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CreonAntigone said:

why did he desert me?

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"Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani?" (Mark 15:34)


https://www.deviantart.com/rationalhub/art/Robert-Anton-Wilson-on-337420727



Please note, these are not Wilson's original words, but a shortened and heavily modified version of them.

CreonAntigone said:

As quoted from the Gilbert O'Sullivan song, I think this captures a problem very succinctly: how do people square their belief in god with the horrors of the world? The world is not always horrible, but to some people at some times, it is. And these people should rightly doubt that the universe is governed by a supposed being who is powerful enough to plan everything out and care for each individual equally. The world and nature does not care for individuals equally, and this is very evident, so it would be strange to suppose a being that runs the world does in fact care for all equally.

A baby is born in severe pain only to die a few hours later. How does that square with any 'plan' of an almighty being? Add to this war, famine, torture, and all the horrors we can imagine; maybe some of us have it good, but for those who don't, or at least in those moments where we don't have anything good, can the horrors we experience be called part of a plan, part of a good?

For those who are religious in a specific type of way - specifically, in a way that asserts a deity has interest in helping humans and simultaneously, omnipotence and benevolence - how do you square the worst parts of the world with continued belief? The Catholics claim that evil is allowed in the world due to 'free will'. But philosophers have countered that this does not account for 'natural evil', the harm we face from the world itself, for example, getting hit by lightning or mauled by a wild animal, which have nothing to do with human choice. It can't at all be argued that evil only exists because humans choose evil; humans did not choose volcanoes, and yet these have caused massive suffering and ended many lives. Can earthquakes, crop failure, hurricanes and floods be called justified, 'part of God's plan'? Or what else can a religious person call them? God designed nature and presumably set up the way that storms work; humans didn't choose it, and it didn't result from free will; God being all knowing would have known that storms would cause massive suffering. So how could God allow this? How could God essentially cause suffering for so many creatures, by creating a world that has natural disasters in it?

I do not pretend to know the answer to this question. It is the perennial 'problem of evil', and I don't think an adequate solution has been provided by any philosopher I've read. But I wish to hear what your answers to this problem might be, if you do maintain a belief in an active, caring deity.

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Hey now! (What follows here is all said from my humble opinion and beliefs.)

The world was created for God's glory. The Logos (which is the Principle of Divine Reason and Creative Order) made pleasure and pain, good and evil, the earth and the heaven's and all the rest of this reality not just to subject innocent and defenseless creatures to it's horrors and tortures, but I ponder over maybe it was to leave room for mystery and adventure in the general  populations eyes. Surely it was God to make the best temporary reality ever made (in God's own mind, maybe we'll see it his way someday along our ways in eternity, in fact, I suggest we do out of trust in him!). One world like no human or any other creature or angel in heaven would make it, if we made it we'd spoil ourselves and give no opportunity for other beings to get down in the shits and actually merit something to be proud of. We all know how the mechanics of a dice game calls and necessitates for there to be the laws of chance at work, now if every baby born was perfectly healthy that would be an exception to God's wondrous world of possibility. Life gives us all a lot in the mighty story unfolding and expanding before our eyes, some get hit hard and die young while others grow old never hearing the word "No!", but nonetheless you got your lot in it. The risk factor for challenges, suffering and death in life makes it exciting, we grow from our desires being denied and being stuck with shit that we have to cope with, it's a maturity issue to me. He laid out the path for my life and I try to make the best of it, helping more than just myself along the way.

The Logos became incarnate in the person of Yeshua. Rather than just let the show roll on it's own, Yeshua dedicated some 30ish years to toiling with humanity as one of them. The Logos, both wanted to help humanities sad and painful situation since the fall in the garden and wanted proven virtues and merited reverence for himself, All being done and credited to God's glory. So it subjected itself to suffering and humility. The Logos that was there at the start of the world and made the world, and will end this world, found it apt to laugh and cry with humanity, being a perfect role-model and savior, with promises to all others here on earth that those of like-minded nature as Yeshua had revealed and given us will be rewarded with eternity in a blissful and peaceful Heaven, those others who oppose, oppress or offend that which is Holy and Good will burn in a lake of fire for eternity. (that's a lot of pressure on a kid's shoulders hearing and believing these stories all my life! )

The truth is out there, aching to be discovered, and when the dust settles at end of this long journey called life, and God reveals the truth to us, maybe we'll be left speechless without any inquiring thoughts or questions, what could be better, being in the deepest and most profound Samadhi states for a couple centuries in heaven, I mean, well, after this tour of hell called a life-on-earth?

Also, as pertains to the Op's questions, a Good and Classic read would be the Book of Job, in it, Job nor anybody else knows why he is subjected to such tragedy and suffering, non of his friends can answer why, no matter how much they debate about it, in fact, in the end of the book God not only rebukes his three friends for what they say to Job (they wrongly claimed Job must have deserved all his suffering from God), but Job is so astonished and amazed by the grand appearance and awestriking wonders of God when he reveals himself to Job, he apologizes to God for thinking he had reason to question God for his terrible pains and troubles... Message I understand from it, just hold on, you'll make it soon enough no matter how bad it seems, because Samadhi is so great it's worth the sufferings of Job!

psilocybinmansions said:

Isn't most of this the question "what is the point of life" disguised as other questions?

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Buster_Brown said:

Maybe dead people don't go to the mall, or if they do maybe they can't feel the texture of the clothes. Maybe it's that simple.

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