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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27865634 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
ballsalsa said:
What does that have to do with the Russian invasion?  Was there a coup in Russia that I missed?


Russia is helping the Donbas people after the coup removed their democratically elected Government.


Did the people of Donbas not get to vote after Yanukovych fled the country?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Lynnch] * 1
    #27865639 -

War is hell

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27865647 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
koods said:
You don’t think that one of the rationales for the invasion was as a show of force?


No, I don't think so.  But I can't know that.


I think that there was definitely some element of that.

After all the US is not affecting outrage at Russia because it genuinely cares about human rights or war (I mean come on!) but because Russia has gone ahead and defied the worlds self-appointed (and massively corrupted) policeman, refusing to implode under the weight of western sanctions or know its rightful place in the world.

The US, for so long top dog, is not used to this and has in its blind rage and panic made a massive miscalculation (assuming this 'mistake' was not intentional) in undermining trust in globalism and the western financial system.

For its part Russia could not have allowed the US to go on provoking it indefinitely (worryingly nor can China) and sooner rather than later had to show the US (bait or no bait), and the world, that when it spoke of 'red lines' it was deadly serious.

It's much the same kind of behavior one observes between feuding mafia families, where both sides end up wiping themselves out feeling that neither can afford to back down or show any weakness.

The US may pretend to be morally indignant but who do you think the warmongering Neocons really respect more?

My own country the UK (or Canada, Germany, etc.) a little prag poodle that sent a speed boat out to patrol the pacific, and lubes up whenever the US demands it, or Russia who have shown themselves willing to and capable of fighting back?


--------------------
"I'm every nightmare you ever had. I am your worst dreams come true. I am everything you ever were afraid of."

Pennywise the dancing clown


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: wolf8312]
    #27865653 -

wolf8312 said:
My own country the UK (or Canada, Germany, etc.)



the UK lol?


no one takes you seriously

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Lynnch]
    #27865659 -

Lynnch said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
ballsalsa said:
What does that have to do with the Russian invasion?  Was there a coup in Russia that I missed?


Russia is helping the Donbas people after the coup removed their democratically elected Government.


Did the people of Donbas not get to vote after Yanukovych fled the country?


Not the people of Crimea nor the DPR and LPR.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: mycosis]
    #27865662 -

mycosis said:
https://www.iri.org/resources/ukraine-poll-majority-want-donbas-to-remain-in-ukraine/


I get it.  The people not living in the effected regions want to keep Donbas.  The people living in those regions don't want to stay with Ukraine.

Do territories have a right to just leave their country?  I'm neutral about that, but Crimea and Donbas both left Ukraine after the constitutionally elected Government was ousted.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Fiery] * 1
    #27865689 -

Fiery said:
wolf8312 said:
My own country the UK (or Canada, Germany, etc.)



the UK lol?


no one takes you seriously


Speak for yourself, wolf8312's post's are always worth reading.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: mycosis]
    #27865766 -

mycosis said:
https://www.iri.org/resources/ukraine-poll-majority-want-donbas-to-remain-in-ukraine/


The sampling methodology was clearly stated and it passes muster for professional scientific survey research. It has a large sample size and a small margin of error. I expect it will be ignored in this thread.


--------------------
"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27865949 -

Stable Genius said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
shivas.wisdom said:
"what's your justification? Or why this war happened exactly?"

There is an aggressive force, the Russian army. There are interests of big capital at stake, on both sides. Those who are suffering now, because of the delusions of some and the crafty economic calculations of others, are the peoples of Russia and Ukraine (and, perhaps soon, those of other geographies near and far away).

Different governments have sided with one faction or the other, and have done so on the basis of economic calculations. There is no appeal to humanity in them. For these governments and their ideologues, there are good and bad interventions-invasions-destructions. The good ones are those carried out by their supporters, and the bad ones are those perpetrated by their opponents. The applause for Putin's criminal argument to justify the military invasion of Ukraine will turn into a lament when, by the same words, the invasion of other peoples whose processes do not please big capital will be justified.

Big capital and its “Western” regimes sat back and watched - and even encouraged - the situation as it deteriorated. Then, once the invasion had begun, they waited to see if Ukraine would resist, calculating what they could get out of one result or the other. As Ukraine persisted, then they began to issue "aid" invoices to be charged later. Putin is not the only one surprised by the Ukrainian resistance.

Those who win in this war are the big weapon-manufacturing consortiums, and the big capitals that see this opportunity to conquer: to destroy-reconstruct territories, that is to say, to create new markets of commodities and consumers, of human lives. Remember that the USA and Russia are the #1 and #2 global suppliers of weapons.

No war but the class war.


Good summary!  (or should I say good summary?)



Oh dear, how embarrassing.

:kittylaugh:


Nice catch Falcon :super:


Not really embarrassing - it's a summary I've already shared much earlier in this thread, one that I agree with in full, and it's a lot faster to copy/paste instead of rewriting slightly different responses a thousand times over in hopes that the next one will convince supporters of Russian aggression and state warfare to reconsider their opinion.

But hey Falcon91Wolvrn03 agrees it's a good summary! Including the parts about the aggressive actions of the Russian military, the criminal justifications of Putin’s war, that this war is predicated on profit rather than appealing to humanity, and that only war profiteers will benefit from these events.

Personally, I think claiming to be against war in general but thinking this specific war is still the best solution available, is more embarrassing.

Personally, I think stating that you are happy to see US foreign interests suffer even if it comes at the cost of mass suffering for uninvolved people in a different country, is more embarrassing.

Personally, I think writing "Good summary!" in response to a post that contains points that you've been arguing against for months, and will continue to argue against when pressed, is more embarrassing.

But sure, go off on a little plagiarism from an anonymous account on a niche webforum if that tickles you. I'm happy to see this post get repeatedly quoted, if it means that pro-war justification gets drowned out for even a moment.


--------------------

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #27866004 -

No war but class war. Except when there are fascists in Ukraine that have been killing their own nation's citizens for the past 8 years, then we can support them because Russia is worse than actual neonazis according to some random "anarchist" blog that just happens to sound like spokespersons for the US Pentagon.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: chopstick]
    #27866012 -

Anarchist pentagon spokesperson:takingnotes:

Lol fucking what.

At least you said spokesPERSON


--------------------
:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: chopstick] * 1
    #27866019 -

No war but class war.*

Maybe it was a CIA plant - maybe it was just a bad opinion held by an anarchist. Good thing we don't all fall together in lockstep, because I disagree that supporting the Ukrainian state/military is a correct choice.

That's one of the things about leaderless movements - they're kinda hard to co-opt. CIA would get a better return on their investment by targeting the gullible folks who incredulously believe anything that comes with a thin pro-Russian veneer.


*Terms and conditions apply


--------------------

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: chopstick]
    #27866045 -

ballsalsa said:
Sure, gotta protect those ethnic Russians. 
Boy that sounds awfully familiar as a justification for aggression and territorial expansion.  Maybe you can jog my memory.  Can you recall any famous historical figures who used similar justifications for their own aggression?
I wonder if Putin drew inspiration from a similar historical event?


he did


Hey chopstick, Fal didn't have a response for this one.  Would you like to take a crack at it?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27866156 -

Brian Jones said:
mycosis said:
https://www.iri.org/resources/ukraine-poll-majority-want-donbas-to-remain-in-ukraine/


The sampling methodology was clearly stated and it passes muster for professional scientific survey research. It has a large sample size and a small margin of error. I expect it will be ignored in this thread.


I won't ignore it.  The poll is fine as you said, but it ignores the opinions of people in the effected territories, which are clearly important.

Here's the disclaimer in the poll:  "Polling was conducted throughout Ukraine (except for the occupied territories of Crimea and the Donbas)".

There are hundreds of videos now of people in Donbas thanking Russia for liberating them from Far Right extremists.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27866165 -

That poll and the organisation that funded it has already been discussed earlier in the thread.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27866190 -

Here's a sampling of videos of people claiming to have been abducted by aliens.
Do you take them as seriously as the videos you like to tout from inside occupied Crimea?














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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #27866199 -

I think it's safe to say that videos from people in Crimea where 95% of the population voted to join Russia are far more likely to be normal/legit than some random alien UFO vid. I have no idea why you are correlating the two together. You alright man? Do you just automatically assume that anything that goes against your preconceived notions is a conspiracy theory? Because that would basically be a conspiracy theory

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27866213 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Personally, I think claiming to be against war in general but thinking this specific war is still the best solution available, is more embarrassing.


Did I miss your better solution somewhere?  Was it a vote by the people living in Donbas/Crimea, was a vote by the whole of Ukraine, or was it something else?

shivas.wisdom said:
Personally, I think stating that you are happy to see US foreign interests suffer even if it comes at the cost of mass suffering for uninvolved people in a different country, is more embarrassing.


I didn't state that, but the people in Europe are now understanding the consequences of their leadership, and the majority of European countries (other than Poland) now want the war to end as soon as possible – even if it means Ukraine making territorial concessions.  I'm hopeful this means we'll soon see a positive change in European leadership away from the current war mongers.

shivas.wisdom said:
Personally, I think writing "Good summary!" in response to a post that contains points that you've been arguing against for months, and will continue to argue against when pressed, is more embarrassing.


No, I've been arguing for points that articles like the ones you just posted ignore, and I think that's embarrassing.  It's very possible for two points to be true at the same time, like that the referendum to leave Ukraine was good for the people of Crimea AND it was good for Russia so it could save its military base there.

And just because I said your earlier post was a "good summary" doesn't mean I agree with every single sentence therein.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27866220 -

ballsalsa said:
ballsalsa said:
Sure, gotta protect those ethnic Russians. 
Boy that sounds awfully familiar as a justification for aggression and territorial expansion.  Maybe you can jog my memory.  Can you recall any famous historical figures who used similar justifications for their own aggression?
I wonder if Putin drew inspiration from a similar historical event?


he did


Hey chopstick, Fal didn't have a response for this one.  Would you like to take a crack at it?


I'll take a crack at it.

I think you messed up on your analogy.  Ukraine ousted its democratically elected government in 2014, just like the Nazis did in Germany.  So it's Ukraine that's following the Nazi model, not Russia.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27866235 -

What democraticly elected government did the nazis oust? They came to power via legal means.

https://www.annefrank.org/en/anne-frank/go-in-depth/germany-1933-democracy-dictatorship/


--------------------

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