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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27861731 -

Kwyjibo said:
Specific examples of people.


Do you believe the US should be able to coup whomever we like without resistance?

If so, then you are a specific example.

If not, then what should be done instead of resistance?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27861737 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Kwyjibo said:
Specific examples of people.


Do you believe the US should be able to coup whomever we like without resistance?

If so, then you are a specific example.

If not, then what should be done instead of resistance?


No, I don't. Do you have any examples you can name?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27861746 -

The Ecstatic said:
Sure but who or what is grounding the perception of each event as much as possible? Certainly not the state actors on either side of this conflict, nor their media, nor the troops in the conflict itself.

You’re arguing in defense of a mechanism that doesn’t exist. If we could all lay out the facts on the table and go from there, yeah, that’d be wonderful, but there is no party involved with an interest in evaluating the facts. That’s why this 400 page thread continues to roll on without the facts even being agreed upon in the first place.


I don't think it's an absolute. It’s a degree thing and some do it more than others (here and IRL). Not that I'm always the best either, I won’t pretend to be perfect, but I do try to be the change I want to see :cool:


--------------------
Nosleep mode: Activated

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Skellies]
    #27861753 -

Quote:
Senator John McCain and U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland repeatedly attended political protests in Ukraine urging pro-West regime change.  What business was it of theirs to tell other countries what to do?


Ukraine doesn’t have freedom of speech?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27861756 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Kwyjibo said:
Specific examples of people.


Do you believe the US should be able to coup whomever we like without resistance?

If so, then you are a specific example.

If not, then what should be done instead of resistance?


Are you going to name anyone or continue to play your bullshit games?


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27861764 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
koods said:
He said nothing about Ukraine. He wasn’t even in the US government when the Ukraine coup happened.


During that time he was serving as Director, Foreign and Defense Policy Studies for the American Enterprise Institute, a think tank that had significant influence in Washington.

We're currently following the play book of another think tank for Ukraine.  I forgot the name of it, but Brian Berletic showed that the US Government is following whatever suggestions that think tank has for Ukraine.


I have a good AEI story. I used to work in the building next to the AEI building and our two buildings shared an alley. I often left work through the alley instead of the front door. One night I popped out the back door and right in front of me was Vice President Dick Cheney sitting in the back of his limo. Nothing between me and him aside from some glass and four feet of air.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27861765 -

Obviously Ukraine.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27861784 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Obviously Ukraine.


Ukraine isn't a specific person. Can you name any or not?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27861830 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Senator John McCain and U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland repeatedly attended political protests in Ukraine urging pro-West regime change.  What business was it of theirs to tell other countries what to do?

The US focused its efforts in Kyiv, because that is the capital of Ukraine where many pro-Westerners lived, and we ignored the areas that were pro-Russian which was the majority of Ukraine based on their election results.


I'd consider that part of backing it.

Quote:
The U.S. Congress removed a ban on Funding for Neo-Nazi far right extremist groups in Ukraine, because we knew they were the ones who could best help overthrow the Ukrainian Government.


That wasn't a factor in 2014. The source is about removing the ban from the December 2015 spending bill, which authorized spend for 2016.

Quote:
After the coup, the person US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland said should be Prime Minister was made the Prime Minister without an election.


The PM of Ukraine isn't an elected position, so the lack of an election isn't surprising. PM's in Ukraine get confirmed by parliament though and Yatsenyuk was confirmed after the previous PM resigned.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: koods]
    #27861861 -

koods said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Senator John McCain and U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland repeatedly attended political protests in Ukraine urging pro-West regime change.  What business was it of theirs to tell other countries what to do?


Ukraine doesn’t have freedom of speech?


Does the US have freedom of speech?  Or were you complaining about Russian interference?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27861883 -

Kwyjibo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you believe the US should be able to coup whomever we like without resistance?

If so, then you are a specific example.

If not, then what should be done instead of resistance?


No, I don't. Do you have any examples you can name?


Kwyjibo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Obviously Ukraine.


Ukraine isn't a specific person. Can you name any or not?


You haven't answered my question.  What should be done instead of resistance?  I ask because on the one hand, you don't think the US should be able to coup whomever we like without resistance, but on the other hand, it appears you object to Ukrainian resistance.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27861887 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Kwyjibo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Do you believe the US should be able to coup whomever we like without resistance?

If so, then you are a specific example.

If not, then what should be done instead of resistance?


No, I don't. Do you have any examples you can name?


Kwyjibo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Obviously Ukraine.


Ukraine isn't a specific person. Can you name any or not?


You haven't answered my question.  What should be done instead of resistance?  I ask because on the one hand, you don't think the US should be able to coup whomever we like without resistance, but on the other hand, it appears you object to Ukrainian resistance.


You still haven't answered my first question.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27861899 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
You haven't answered my question.  What should be done instead of resistance?  I ask because on the one hand, you don't think the US should be able to coup whomever we like without resistance, but on the other hand, it appears you object to Ukrainian resistance.


Ok, I see where the issue is, now.  You've confused Russian occupation with Ukrainian resistance.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Skellies] * 1
    #27861900 -

Skellies said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Senator John McCain and U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland repeatedly attended political protests in Ukraine urging pro-West regime change.  What business was it of theirs to tell other countries what to do?

The US focused its efforts in Kyiv, because that is the capital of Ukraine where many pro-Westerners lived, and we ignored the areas that were pro-Russian which was the majority of Ukraine based on their election results.


I'd consider that part of backing it.


Backing it would be to say we'll support the outcome.  Pushing it, on the other hand, seems quite a bit more than just backing it.  We were upset with Russia for FAR less than travelling here to rally the people.

Skellies said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
The U.S. Congress removed a ban on Funding for Neo-Nazi far right extremist groups in Ukraine, because we knew they were the ones who could best help overthrow the Ukrainian Government.


That wasn't a factor in 2014. The source is about removing the ban from the December 2015 spending bill, which authorized spend for 2016.


Fair enough.  Since the coup didn't hand Crimea to the West, we looked at other options to get it.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27861901 -

Kwyjibo said:
You still haven't answered my first question.


I would say you, based on your non-response to my question.  That could change depending on your answer.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #27861905 -

ballsalsa said:
Ok, I see where the issue is, now.  You've confused Russian occupation with Ukrainian resistance.


I wouldn't say I'm confusing them.  Eastern Ukrainians clearly WANT Russian help.  There's tons of videos showing this.

Again, we helped overthrow the elected Government, and Crimea and Donbas said no thanks to the unconstitutional unelected Western Government.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27861926 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Kwyjibo said:
You still haven't answered my first question.


I would say you, based on your non-response to my question.  That could change depending on your answer.


Nice job avoiding answering yet again, ever going to come up with a name?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: mushboy] * 3
    #27862079 -

koods said:
Quote:
You can fathom it just fine, because when Trump won the election in 2016, with the agency of over one hundred million voters, you became quickly convinced that a foreign government must have orchestrated it.


It wasn’t a coup.


For all intents and purposes that’s how you and millions of other political opponents of Donald trump treated it, especially with regards to the agency of voters.

mushboy said:
63 million. Almost 3million less than hilldog

Over 100 million? Wut.


I’m referring to the total number of voters, of which enough of them (not a majority obviously, but enough of them) used their agency to elect Donald Trump. The point is when koods says it’s arrogant for a westerner to assume malfeasance and erase the agency of [political actor] he doesn’t actually believe that, it’s just something he saw someone else say.


--------------------

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Kwyjibo] * 2
    #27862199 -

I suspect that Bolton guy was referring to the failed coup to Maduro in Venezuela, not much to do with Ukraine. But we'll never know, not soon atleast.
I dont see how it's relevant here, US is well known for orchestrating and backing coups all around.
Personally i'm not sure that what happened in Ukraine in 2014 is to consider a real coup d'etate in the true sense of the word. It already happened that a government is destituted or resign dimissions after riots of massive proportions if they believe not being able to keep control over a country. Not always its to consider a coup, if the state system is preserved. To be honest, what appeared from here is that Janukovyc has messed up pretty bad in the management/repression of the protests. Also i had the impression  that the Maidan protest had support from a large portion of the population (there are polls about this showing ,in average over all UA, 49% pro-maidan vs 44% anti, with the results of the poll being more polarized, in opposite directions, in the East and West of the country). My opinion, based on speech with ukrainians in Italy (some came recently as refugee, but many are here since long) is that most of the western and central Ukrainians (expecially young ones) felt more affinity to EU than Rus. So, despite that specific deal with Russia was maybe better than with EU (i read the generic terms at the time and had this impression, not that i read them in detail or have the competences to evaluate) they perceived it as a lost chance to get closer to EU.
I have no doubt US backed/supported the riot. But i believe it's more a thing they jumped on to rather than something they orchestrated (differently from what US do in south america). But I have no doubt (and putin himself confirmed it in some extent) Russia also fomented the eastern independentist.
So what? it remains a war of aggression over a country that has been contended between 2 or 3 'powers' (if we want EU to count as 'power') who wanted it to be in their sphere.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #27862216 -

The Ecstatic said:
koods said:
Quote:
You can fathom it just fine, because when Trump won the election in 2016, with the agency of over one hundred million voters, you became quickly convinced that a foreign government must have orchestrated it.


It wasn’t a coup.


For all intents and purposes that’s how you and millions of other political opponents of Donald trump treated it, especially with regards to the agency of voters.

mushboy said:
63 million. Almost 3million less than hilldog

Over 100 million? Wut.


I’m referring to the total number of voters, of which enough of them (not a majority obviously, but enough of them) used their agency to elect Donald Trump. The point is when koods says it’s arrogant for a westerner to assume malfeasance and erase the agency of [political actor] he doesn’t actually believe that, it’s just something he saw someone else say.


Once more i have to agree on most you say: even if probably Russian tried to influence the course of US and some EU countries elections, it's silly to treat it as 'coups'. Beside i doubt that this influences really had effect. Lastly, even if, it's what you call democracy baby. Once you make democracy based on consensus instead of participation, thats the risk you run: some smart ass being able to intercept more consensus and screwing all your nice purposes. But as i said in some previous post, Trump would have won in 2016, russian trolls or not, because he better interpreted peoples desires.

I also often listen (somewhere else) same koods point about western arrogance assuming other country not being able to develop their agency. In theory I agree, but in real politics often countries happen/have to allign their agency to some other (more powerful) country. Ukrainians have surely their purposes, but maybe in this situation Zel had to sacrifice them on a shrine to avoid total lost of control over the country

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