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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: koods] * 3
    #27861412 -

koods said:
I cannot fathom the level of western arrogance when someone like stable genius essentially denies the agency of people in foreign lands to decide for themselves when they are tired of their own government. It’s really gross to just label every coup American orchestrated. I’m not exactly sure how the CIA convinces millions of people to protest their own government.

What I do know is the invasion and overthrow of the locally elected governments in eastern Ukraine has been solely orchestrated by the Russian government.


You can fathom it just fine, because when Trump won the election in 2016, with the agency of over one hundred million voters, you became quickly convinced that a foreign government must have orchestrated it.

You’re not sure how the CIA does coups (open a history book maybe?) but you are sure how Russian memes and Wikileaks brainwashed half the country into voting for trump (the next logical progression of a centuries long chain of events).


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Skellies]
    #27861423 -

Skellies said:
Grounding the perception of each event in it's reality as much as possible is important because it informs every perception and thought around it. Without that grounding you just get absurdism where anything can be caused by, or justified in response to anything :yawn:


Sure but who or what is grounding the perception of each event as much as possible? Certainly not the state actors on either side of this conflict, nor their media, nor the troops in the conflict itself.

You’re arguing in defense of a mechanism that doesn’t exist. If we could all lay out the facts on the table and go from there, yeah, that’d be wonderful, but there is no party involved with an interest in evaluating the facts. That’s why this 400 page thread continues to roll on without the facts even being agreed upon in the first place.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #27861437 -

Quote:
You can fathom it just fine, because when Trump won the election in 2016, with the agency of over one hundred million voters, you became quickly convinced that a foreign government must have orchestrated it.


It wasn’t a coup.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: koods]
    #27861453 -

63 million. Almost 3million less than hilldog

Over 100 million? Wut.


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:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: mushboy]
    #27861470 -

63 million plus almost 66 million is almost 129 mill.  That's over 100 million

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27861472 -

Oh I can’t read derp


--------------------
:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Kwyjibo] * 2
    #27861570 -

Kwyjibo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
As I've said many times, some believe the US should be able to coup whomever we like without resistance.


Who?


Everyone who doesn't understand why there is resistance to US backed coups.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27861622 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Kwyjibo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
As I've said many times, some believe the US should be able to coup whomever we like without resistance.


Who?


Everyone who doesn't understand why there is resistance to US backed coups.


Ok, who's that?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Skellies]
    #27861648 -

Skellies said:
The difference is between “orchestrated a coup”, “backed a coup”, and “had anything to do with a coup”. These all mean very different things, with the latter two being obviously true.

The first one implies that the Euromaidan movement, and resulting transfer of power by Ukraine’s parliament, was by and large a creation of the US which there isn’t really evidence for.


Senator John McCain and U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland repeatedly attended political protests in Ukraine urging pro-West regime change.  What business was it of theirs to tell other countries what to do?

The US focused its efforts in Kyiv, because that is the capital of Ukraine where many pro-Westerners lived, and we ignored the areas that were pro-Russian which was the majority of Ukraine based on their election results.

The U.S. Congress removed a ban on Funding for Neo-Nazi far right extremist groups in Ukraine, because we knew they were the ones who could best help overthrow the Ukrainian Government.

After the coup, the person US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland said should be Prime Minister was made the Prime Minister without an election.


And you say "there isn’t really evidence for" a US orchestrated coup?!?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: koods] * 1
    #27861651 -

koods said:
I cannot fathom the level of western arrogance when someone like stable genius essentially denies the agency of people in foreign lands to decide for themselves when they are tired of their own government. It’s really gross to just label every coup American orchestrated. I’m not exactly sure how the CIA convinces millions of people.


I’d rather be accused of arrogance than be accused of ignorance.
Of course I know Bolton was part of Trumps administration that’s why I suggested ballsalsa could delete my post if he felt it didn’t belong here. In my opinion it does as it’s another piece in the puzzle as to why this shit keeps happening.
I’ve posted an interview with John Pilger and the head of the CIA’s man in South America in the Aus politics thread with him saying similar shit to what Bolton is saying, flat out admitting they couped Allende’s government.

I find it hard to believe that you can find fault after fault after fault with just about anything Trump did yet are prepared to walk past everything else. Using a word you love to use; that makes you a ‘shill’ for the government.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: koods]
    #27861654 -

koods said:
He said nothing about Ukraine. He wasn’t even in the US government when the Ukraine coup happened.


During that time he was serving as Director, Foreign and Defense Policy Studies for the American Enterprise Institute, a think tank that had significant influence in Washington.

We're currently following the play book of another think tank for Ukraine.  I forgot the name of it, but Brian Berletic showed that the US Government is following whatever suggestions that think tank has for Ukraine.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: koods] * 1
    #27861658 -

koods said:
I cannot fathom the level of western arrogance when someone like stable genius essentially denies the agency of people in foreign lands to decide for themselves when they are tired of their own government.


You mean when a minority doesn't get what they want, they should overtake their Government by force?  :flowstone:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Kryptos]
    #27861661 -

Kryptos said:
That is actually a pretty big difference.

If we're considering rhetoric about leadership preferences in other countries to be a coup, then Putin started a coup in the US when he expressed a preference for Trump over Hillary.


He said that before our election???


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (07/13/22 10:01 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27861669 -

Kwyjibo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Kwyjibo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
As I've said many times, some believe the US should be able to coup whomever we like without resistance.


Who?


Everyone who doesn't understand why there is resistance to US backed coups.


Ok, who's that?


Anyone who opposes the desire of Crimea and Donbas not to be under the control of a couped Government.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27861671 -

Did the US make the Ukranian govt under Yanukovych beat the protestors at Berkut? Did the US make Yanukovych withdraw from the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement - to seek a vastly inferior deal with Russia? This wasn't even the first time mass riots had broken out against Yanukovych specifically - i.e. orange revolution...

Like it or not, they (Russia) dug their own grave in Ukraine, the US influenced filling it quicker than it naturally would have.


--------------------
¿Check out some art m8?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: twighead] * 1
    #27861688 -

twighead said:
Did the US make the Ukranian govt under Yanukovych beat the protestors at Berkut?


:lolwut:
Where is Berkut?

twighead said:
Did the US make Yanukovych withdraw from the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement - to seek a vastly inferior deal with Russia?


:lolwut:
How was cheaper energy an "inferior deal"?

twighead said:
This wasn't even the first time mass riots had broken out against Yanukovych specifically - i.e. orange revolution...


:lolwut:
In 2010, Ukraine voted Yanukovych back in after giving the Orange Revolution's Yushchenko only 5.45% of the vote - the worst result for any sitting President of Ukraine.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27861694 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Anyone who opposes the desire of Crimea and Donbas not to be under the control of a couped Government.


That's not the same but anyways, do you have any specific examples?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27861707 -

Irish Member of Parliament Mick Wallace weighs in on NATO:



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27861716 -

Kwyjibo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Kwyjibo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
As I've said many times, some believe the US should be able to coup whomever we like without resistance.


Who?


Everyone who doesn't understand why there is resistance to US backed coups.


Ok, who's that?


Kwyjibo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Anyone who opposes the desire of Crimea and Donbas not to be under the control of a couped Government.


That's not the same but anyways, do you have any specific examples?


If you don't believe the US should be able to coup whomever we want, what do you believe should be done for/by the people who are couped against their will?  It seems nothing, but correct me if I'm wrong.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27861724 -

Kwyjibo said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Anyone who opposes the desire of Crimea and Donbas not to be under the control of a couped Government.


That's not the same but anyways, do you have any specific examples?


If you don't believe the US should be able to coup whomever we want, what do you believe should be done for/by the people who are couped against their will?  It seems nothing, but correct me if I'm wrong.


Specific examples of people.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Political Discussion
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