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Shop: North Spore Cultivation Supplies   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: koods]
    #27859378 -

koods said:
What do you think is the appropriate criminal penalty for having an opinion that doesn’t agree with the government?


I've already said, I don't think there should be a penalty for that.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: twighead]
    #27859383 -

twighead said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What 'falsehood' is that (people always accuse me of this, but never back it up)?


You claimed that the US is threatening to take Taiwan from China

Which is patently untrue on both the counts that Taiwan doesn't, and has never belonged to the PRC - so it can never be taken from them


Here is the old language on the State Department's website:
Quote:
The 1979 U.S.-P.R.C. Joint Communique switched diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing. In the Joint Communique, the United States recognized the Government of the People’s Republic of China as the sole legal government of China, acknowledging the Chinese position that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China.


twighead said:
And stating intent to defend said political entity on Taiwan is not 'posessing' it...


I said we're threatening to take Taiwan from China, which the previous State Department language appears to show is theirs.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27859386 -

Stable Genius said:
twighead said:
It's in vogue to kiss the ass of dictatorships these days

cuz US bad


Must suck to see your country going to shit these last 25 years when you’re government would rather spend your taxes on weapons instead of its people.

Doesn’t matter who’s in power, there’s no difference between Republicans or Democrats.


I'm not contesting US being bad


I'm contesting kissing the ass of even worse regimes because of that


Like what blessed naivete for us to even hold such an opinion - most of us would have negative social credit scores in CN lolo


--------------------
¿Check out some art m8?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27859387 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
twighead said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What 'falsehood' is that (people always accuse me of this, but never back it up)?


You claimed that the US is threatening to take Taiwan from China

Which is patently untrue on both the counts that Taiwan doesn't, and has never belonged to the PRC - so it can never be taken from them


Here is the old language on the State Department's website:
Quote:
The 1979 U.S.-P.R.C. Joint Communique switched diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing. In the Joint Communique, the United States recognized the Government of the People’s Republic of China as the sole legal government of China, acknowledging the Chinese position that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China.


twighead said:
And stating intent to defend said political entity on Taiwan is not 'posessing' it...


I said we're threatening to take Taiwan from China, which the previous State Department language appears to show is theirs.


ROC or PRC because if the former - 100% untrue, and the latter 100% untrue because they don't and never have had any political authority over Taiwan.


--------------------
¿Check out some art m8?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27859388 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Kryptos said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Back to my original question that started this:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What 'falsehood' is that (people always accuse me of this, but never back it up)?


Can you be specific, or is this just another generic comment like twighead and everyone else always make?


I've given you specific comments in the past, only to watch you argue, invent, strawman, and backtrack, ad nauseum.


Yes, I argue, because people say things about my position that I never said.  I don't recall inventing anything, so maybe you can provide an example?

Kryptos said:
I have no interest in participating in your gish gallop today. As I have said, you clearly have more time on your hands than I do. So go ahead and declare victory, and pat yourself on the back.


I don't have to declare victory, because you've just admitted defeat.  :shrug:


I didn't. I just let you claim victory of your stupid little rock on your stupid little hill. You can call it defeat. Because, after all, to you this is just a game. Winners and losers. You put the right words in the right places, you use the right fallacies and then you put a half dozen posts in a row to make your arguments seem focused and legitimate.

Your only victory is pushing actual thought off the front page.

That's why I legitimately think you are paid by the Kremlin. It's not about winning the argument, it's about saying the right thing at the right time. There is no consistency, just victory. 4chan style.

It would be even sadder if you weren't paid by the Kremlin.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27859393 -

Kryptos said:
I didn't. I just let you claim victory of your stupid little rock on your stupid little hill. You can call it defeat. Because, after all, to you this is just a game. Winners and losers. You put the right words in the right places, you use the right fallacies and then you put a half dozen posts in a row to make your arguments seem focused and legitimate.

Your only victory is pushing actual thought off the front page.

That's why I legitimately think you are paid by the Kremlin. It's not about winning the argument, it's about saying the right thing at the right time. There is no consistency, just victory. 4chan style.

It would be even sadder if you weren't paid by the Kremlin.


You still argue, but you won't (can't?) provide an example?  That's defeat my dude.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27859407 -

Go to the search bar, I know you are familiar with it, then look up posts by me in response to you, then pick any of the dozens of questions and examples that you have dodged because you find them inconvenient.

Then go back to your standard playbook of argue, invent, strawman, and backtrack.

Kryptos said:
I have no interest in participating in your gish gallop today. As I have said, you clearly have more time on your hands than I do.


:shrug:

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Kryptos] * 1
    #27859421 -

No examples.  Ok.  :shrug:

Kryptos said:
Iran is on the cutting edge of missile technology, and their drone tech isn't that far behind, based on Yemen.


I just read this on ABS news:
Quote:
This would be USA’s biggest nightmare to be real. Iran has hacked, captured and reverse engineered USA’s top drones & has shown numerous times that these drones flew freely over US ships and their carriers, filming them — undetected. Iran has profited off of USA’s trillion dollar research into drones and copied it tit for tat with improvements and great success. These drones are sophisticated and without a doubt some of the best in the world. Iran is a drone super power, they absolutely have the numbers the White House is claiming to give away. Whether that’s the truth or not, time will tell. But the story is plausible.

Russia does not sport as many drone classes as Iran and the Orion and other classes are way too valuable for Russia to risk them falling into Ukraine’s & USA’s hands. These Russian attack drones are being used in very safe ways. Aka — they’re not being used where they need to be used. With Iranian drones, Iran or Russia couldn’t care less as that’s literally USA’s reverse engineered tech.



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27859428 -

Russia offers fast-track citizenship to ALL Ukrainians
Quote:
Any Ukrainian national may now apply for Russian citizenship under a simplified scheme, according to a decree signed by President Vladimir Putin on Monday. The measure also applies to stateless persons permanently living in Ukraine as well as to citizens of the two Donbass republics, recognized earlier by Russia as independent.

Ukrainians may now file the relevant request without the need to live in Russia for five years, to have a source of income or to pass a Russian-language test – something foreigners are normally required to do before they can apply for Russian citizenship.


The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry says that Putin's decree on Russian citizenship for Ukrainians is an encroachment on the sovereignty of Ukraine.

Ukrainian Foreign Minister Kuleba called on the West to urgently provide Kiev with heavier weapons in response to Putin's decree on citizenship for Ukrainians.

:lol:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27859430 -

In regards the drones ……… doh!!

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27859431 -

It's hard not to think they're bluffing to a good degree when their airforce is almost entirely composed of 1960s and 70s US built aircraft that they largely haven't been able to even reverse engineer spares for and desperately set up weird schemes in the US to try and pilfer spares from the grey market


--------------------
¿Check out some art m8?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27859432 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Ukrainian Foreign Minister Kuleba called on the West to urgently provide Kiev with heavier weapons in response to Putin's decree on citizenship for Ukrainians.

:lol:


That’s taking butt hurt to a whole new level lol

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: twighead]
    #27859433 -

twighead said:
It's hard not to think they're bluffing to a good degree when their airforce is almost entirely composed of 1960s and 70s US built aircraft that they largely haven't been able to even reverse engineer spares for and desperately set up weird schemes in the US to try and pilfer spares from the grey market


From what I understand Russia worked out a long time ago that decent artillery is superior to aircraft.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27859436 -

Edit, my mistake.

Edited by Stable Genius (07/12/22 03:40 AM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27859446 -

Stable Genius said:
twighead said:
It's hard not to think they're bluffing to a good degree when their airforce is almost entirely composed of 1960s and 70s US built aircraft that they largely haven't been able to even reverse engineer spares for and desperately set up weird schemes in the US to try and pilfer spares from the grey market


From what I understand Russia worked out a long time ago that decent artillery is superior to aircraft.


Right - but all the same, if Russia had an airforce that remotely approached the US' they would've steamrolled the conventional Ukrainian forces in a week or two the same way that the US did Iraq. Something that they strove to do (for good reason) and failed (totally gave up on the decapitating strike on Kyiv) - and now Ukraine gets to really dig in and receive tons of equipment/aid.

Artillery shines in large scale, pitched ground battles - but both are necessary for different circumstances - air superiority will make artillery's role vastly more difficult -
not only can anti radiation missiles destroy all your counter battery radars well before any targets are in range... artillery requires a direct and significant supply chain to continue to operate effectively.. meaning air power can wreck the supply lines with little resistance and render artillery inert.

The Russians simply really have never particularly equipped their military to fight the air battle very seriously other than banking on SAM missiles - because that solution is way cheaper than aircraft. When it comes to potential direct conflict with the US they bank on nuclear deterrent - because there is no way they could fight in the open with the strength of our airforce and difference in funding.


--------------------
¿Check out some art m8?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: twighead]
    #27859452 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
shivas.wisdom said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
shivas.wisdom said:
"I'm ok with a law that prohibits intentionally fake news."

Who decides what is fake and what is true?

The courts, aka the state.

What happens to those who dissent from the state-derived truth (aka, official state narrative)?

"Absolutely no penalty for that."


I don't think you understand the difference between an opinion and intentionally fake news.


A distinction, with regards to its legal determination, that you've never been able to sufficiently explain.


I've explained it already, and also said it's something a court would decide.


So nothing I stated in the initial quote was wrong, but around we go in circles anyways...

... back to my favourite criticism of your political beliefs; wherein you are either ignorant of their real implications, or intentionally deceptive.


--------------------

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: twighead] * 1
    #27859476 -

twighead said:
Right - but all the same, if Russia had an airforce that remotely approached the US' they would've steamrolled the conventional Ukrainian forces in a week or two the same way that the US did Iraq. Something that they strove to do (for good reason) and failed (totally gave up on the decapitating strike on Kyiv) - and now Ukraine gets to really dig in and receive tons of equipment/aid.

Artillery shines in large scale, pitched ground battles - but both are necessary for different circumstances - air superiority will make artillery's role vastly more difficult -
not only can anti radiation missiles destroy all your counter battery radars well before any targets are in range... artillery requires a direct and significant supply chain to continue to operate effectively.. meaning air power can wreck the supply lines with little resistance and render artillery inert.

The Russians simply really have never particularly equipped their military to fight the air battle very seriously other than banking on SAM missiles - because that solution is way cheaper than aircraft. When it comes to potential direct conflict with the US they bank on nuclear deterrent - because there is no way they could fight in the open with the strength of our airforce and difference in funding.


I appreciate your knowledge here and will take your word for the explanation.

Thinking about your analysis is it then fair to say that Russia has used it's military assets to it's best advantage? Their supply lines look well protected and I've read they are firing ten times the amount of artillery that Ukraine is, so doesn't that indicate they are having no problem with re-supply?
I understand their layered missile defence system is pretty good as well.

Also, they have systematically taken all of the Luhansk region, clearing the towns of any remaining troops, without destroying significant amounts of infrastructure or killing high numbers of civilians. In fact the civilian population has welcomed them.
The Ukrainian troops, well trained by the U.S. on their home ground have suffered defeats and surrenders and the defensive lines that Ukraine had 8 years to put in place fell quickly.
Would an air assault have achieved the same outcomes?

If taking Kyiv isn't in Russia's plans, and it's not logical to think that, then once The Donetsk region and the southern part of Ukraine past Odessa has been taken I'd be thinking that's pretty much the end of it.
Russia will need to give something back to make the deal worthwhile but it won't be too much.

Will Zelensky be around to negotiate the surrender? I'm not sure if he has the inclination or even enough control to do that.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27859482 -

The two main cities in Donetsk and Luhansk were already under control before the 2022 invasion, so presumably a lot of the fighting took place out in the open - which considering the open terrain, artillery would be highly effective.

Then on the flip side - look at Mariupol which was not under control and saw pitched urban resistance - most of the city was heavily damaged and saw lots of civilian casualties - this is where the difference between US style air strikes and artillery comes in - when you're trying to take out a target in one building, a precision air munition can do it and destroy only the target. An artillery strike on the other hand will likely take out the entire block - and with its low angle of fire - if there's other buildings obscuring the angles between the artillery and the target - they're heavily at risk too. So in urban settings - it lends to huge amounts of collateral.

Look at places like Grozny to see the end result of that strategy - typically it ends in the destruction of the entire city.


--------------------
¿Check out some art m8?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27859557 -

Stable Genius said:
twighead said:
It's hard not to think they're bluffing to a good degree when their airforce is almost entirely composed of 1960s and 70s US built aircraft that they largely haven't been able to even reverse engineer spares for and desperately set up weird schemes in the US to try and pilfer spares from the grey market


From what I understand Russia worked out a long time ago that decent artillery is superior to aircraft.


Are you serious? That’s a massive mistake. Russia doctrine has always been massed artillery they’ve never developed true close air support which has been proven to be more effective than conventional artillery barrages. Read up on the opening moments of the first gulf war. How the sam sites and radar installations were methodically destroyed opening a corridor for aircraft to pummel one of the most heavily defended cities on earth(at the time and with all Russian/Soviet technology currently deployed in Ukraine) with minimal looses. That was in 1991 and our abilities have on got better while russia thinks artillery is the key..

The US close air support concept was built around destroying soviet armored vehicles(artillery).

Static artillery fortifications are easy targets as well.

155mm howitzer or an A10 on deck?

A10 plz


--------------------
:hypnotoad:
Making Liquid Culture :  Go insane with LC
Mushboy likes these teks : Making shroom tea
Dank Education

Edited by mushboy (07/12/22 07:26 AM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Threat [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27859632 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Russia offers fast-track citizenship to ALL Ukrainians
Quote:
Any Ukrainian national may now apply for Russian citizenship under a simplified scheme, according to a decree signed by President Vladimir Putin on Monday. The measure also applies to stateless persons permanently living in Ukraine as well as to citizens of the two Donbass republics, recognized earlier by Russia as independent.

Ukrainians may now file the relevant request without the need to live in Russia for five years, to have a source of income or to pass a Russian-language test – something foreigners are normally required to do before they can apply for Russian citizenship.


The Ukrainian Foreign Ministry says that Putin's decree on Russian citizenship for Ukrainians is an encroachment on the sovereignty of Ukraine.

Ukrainian Foreign Minister Kuleba called on the West to urgently provide Kiev with heavier weapons in response to Putin's decree on citizenship for Ukrainians.

:lol:


Pretty smart, this is what the US did to Cuba in order to get all the exiles and intellectuals off the island.


--------------------

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