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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27725960 -

Stable Genius said:
koods said:
What Russia is doing is evil. That fact that other countries act evil is completely irrelevant.


:inbred:

Ever consider that this type of thinking is why Russia felt provoked enough to attack? That was a rhetorical question, of course you don't.


You ever consider that the reason people think Putin is evil is because he does evil shit, like invading his neighbors and destroying their cities.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27725979 -

Tons of drone footage from bucha has been released

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/04/07/meduza-publishes-new-footage-evidencing-civilian-murders-in-bucha-during-russian-occupation


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27725995 -

Quote:
Ever consider that this type of thinking is why Russia felt provoked enough to attack? That was a rhetorical question, of course you don't.


 
    You think it's ok to attack people because you don't like the way they think ?


--------------------


Edited by Psilynut2 (04/08/22 06:50 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27726042 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
shivas.wisdom said:
The people of Ukraine in its entirety should decide what the process of determining regional autonomy and/or sovereignty is. Afterwards, the people of the Donbas should decide it's specific regional status.

If you disagree with my assessment, but still agree with the principle of the Belfast agreement, then how would you see such an agreement implemented in Ukraine?


I agree.  Do you feel that is also true for the Ukrainian leadership (that it's not ok to oust their elected leader in a coup), or is it only true for Ukrainian territory?

Your position seems to ignore the first.  But I completely agree with your argument in principle.

I agree with your assessment.  But my opinion is that this approach should have been taken after the coup.

As I said before, it's like if China put a communist Government in charge of the US after a Chinese backed coup assisted by US communists, and then Texas said they don't want to live under a communist Government, and left.

It appears you're ok with the first (the coup), but not the second (Texas leaving)?


I mean, you should know enough about my personal politics to know that I have zero issue with the practice of ousting unpopular political leaders - in general - but pragmatically such a practice usually leads to an escalation of conflict unless that leader is massively unpopular.

But if you can understand why Yanukovych’s ousting was a catalyst for breakaway regions in Ukraine's east, you should also understand why Yanukovych’s violent suppression of protest was a catalyst for his ousting. That's the whole idea behind a plurality of perspectives - understanding why both groups of Ukrainians might view their current (at the time) government as illegitimate.

And sure, it would have been better to have adopted this approach in 2014 - it would have been better to adopt this approach at every stage of escalation - but that didn't happen, so the next best time to adopt this approach is now. Just like how decades of escalation in Northern Ireland didn't prevent the Belfast agreement from being viable once it finally arrived. The point of a Belfast-type agreement is to find a resolution to conflict, not assign blame for who's most responsible for the conflict. This won't be possible so long as Russia is belligerently enforcing a unilateral resolution.

So in the case of Yanukovych’s ousting, what would a Belfast-type agreement look like? Probably new elections with international observers to ensure all Ukrainians feel represented in the process of reforming their gov't + enshrined protections for protests to prevent another deterioration of democracy. That could be the first step, with the new gov't being given the top mandate of developing a process for determining regional status coming next, and votes on regional status coming third.



Addendum: Your portrayal of the 2014 ousting of Ukraine's government as a coup is flawed. First, the notion of coup in common understanding - while technically referring strictly to the overthrow of a government - usually includes the installation of an autocratic regime. That's why coups are generally seen as moving away from democracy. But here's the thing - coups are one of the only ways to end a dictatorship, and in these instances a coup can be the first step towards democracy. A coup is not an inherently bad thing.

The notion that (to use your China analogy) the US put a new government in charge of Ukraine alludes to the type of coup that installs an autocratic regime - but the reality is that Ukraine has held democratic elections for every new gov't since Yanukovych’s ousting. Now whether the ousting of Yanukovych was boon or bane to democracy is debatable, but one thing that's absolutely clear is that an autocratic regime was not installed in the aftermath.

If you're truly interested in legitimizing a plurality of perspectives, you need to be more aware of inherent biases present in your language.


--------------------

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27726072 -

I really hope this all ends soon because shit could get heated up really fast. Its like a drunk person smoking by a powder keg at the moment.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27726074 -

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:
Ever consider that this type of thinking is why Russia felt provoked enough to attack? That was a rhetorical question, of course you don't.


 
    You think it's ok to attack people because you don't like the way they think ?

that question can go in different directions really fast lol.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #27726100 -

Psilynut2 said:
Quote:
Ever consider that this type of thinking is why Russia felt provoked enough to attack? That was a rhetorical question, of course you don't.


 
    You think it's ok to attack people because you don't like the way they think ?


Ask a dumbed down question get a dumbed down answer = No.

Now what about the gimp suit?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27726106 -

shivas.wisdom said:
if you can understand why Yanukovych’s ousting was a catalyst for breakaway regions in Ukraine's east, you should also understand why Yanukovych’s violent suppression of protest was a catalyst for his ousting.


Violent suppression of protest?  You still don't seem to be aware that events were staged to get a reaction.  The violence was caused by Nazis shooting at peaceful protesters.  We can start another thread about it if you like, but by now, you should have read enough examples of Nazis doing similar things in the current conflict, with hundreds of witnesses of this in Mariupol.  Here's a link to a video I posted where a Nazi leader is bragging about how the Nazis worked with the US during Maidan (the whole video is interesting, but the Maidan discussion is from 1:23 - 2:15), and that without them, Maidan "would have turned into a gay parade".

Again, I agree with you in principle.

shivas.wisdom said:
And sure, it would have been better to have adopted this approach in 2014 - it would have been better to adopt this approach at every stage of escalation - but that didn't happen, so the next best time to adopt this approach is now.  This won't be possible so long as Russia is belligerently enforcing a unilateral resolution.

So in the case of Yanukovych’s ousting, what would a Belfast-type agreement look like? Probably new elections with international observers to ensure all Ukrainians feel represented in the process of reforming their gov't  enshrined protections for protests to prevent another deterioration of democracy. That could be the first step, with the new gov't being given the top mandate of developing a process for determining regional status coming next, and votes on regional status coming third.


Russia has attempted a peaceful resolution for 8 years, and I think they're fed up with continued US/Ukrainian NATO threats, and total disregard of the Minsk agreements.  While your idea is sound, I think it's too late, in my opinion.  And there's no way the US would be ok with this; Crimean control is still an ambition (which is why I believe the war hasn't ended yet).

shivas.wisdom said:
Addendum: Your portrayal of the 2014 ousting of Ukraine's government as a coup is flawed. First, the notion of coup in common understanding - while technically referring strictly to the overthrow of a government - usually includes the installation of an autocratic regime. That's why coups are generally seen as moving away from democracy. But here's the thing - coups are one of the only ways to end a dictatorship, and in these instances a coup can be the first step towards democracy. A coup is not an inherently bad thing.

The notion that (to use your China analogy) the US put a new government in charge of Ukraine alludes to the type of coup that installs an autocratic regime - but the reality is that Ukraine has held democratic elections for every new gov't since Yanukovych’s ousting. Now whether the ousting of Yanukovych was boon or bane to democracy is debatable, but one thing that's absolutely clear is that an autocratic regime was not installed in the aftermath.

If you're truly interested in legitimizing a plurality of perspectives, you need to be more aware of inherent biases present in your language.


I think it's you who needs to be more aware your inherent biases.  The new Government is about as bad as the old one, except now we're happy because it's a US puppet Government.
:shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] * 1
    #27726111 -

koods said:
Stable Genius said:
koods said:
What Russia is doing is evil. That fact that other countries act evil is completely irrelevant.


:inbred:

Ever consider that this type of thinking is why Russia felt provoked enough to attack? That was a rhetorical question, of course you don't.


You ever consider that the reason people think Putin is evil is because he does evil shit, like invading his neighbors and destroying their cities.


I think it was probably a bad idea to ignore Russia's security concerns whilst continuing to send billions worth of weapons in to keep a conflict going that could've probably been snuffed out at the ballot box. Too late for that now though.
Ukraine failed at keeping their end of the Minsk Agreement and here we are.
Also Putin bad, bad bad bad BUT at the same time Zelensky stupid, stupid to believe the horseshit he was fed by the U.S.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Mach z 800]
    #27726114 -

Mach z 800 said:
I really hope this all ends soon because shit could get heated up really fast. Its like a drunk person smoking by a powder keg at the moment.


A whole lot of people on both sides who are following troop movements are saying if they don't finish negotiations soon, the real fighting is about to begin.  I'll even post from someone I don't particularly care for, but Colonel Macgregor and Scott Ritter feel the same:

THE WORST IS YET TO COME:



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27726116 -

Stable Genius said:
Also Putin bad, bad bad bad BUT at the same time Zelensky stupid, stupid to believe the horseshit he was fed by the U.S.


You always gotta make the disclaimer that you're not a Putin fan with all these people here.  :shake:

You're actually a "what's really going on?" fan.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27726126 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Russia has attempted a peaceful resolution for 8 years, and I think they're fed up with continued US/Ukrainian NATO threats, and total disregard of the Minsk agreements.  While your idea is sound, I think it's too late, in my opinion.  And there's no way the US would be ok with this; Crimean control is still an ambition (which is why I believe the war hasn't ended yet).



Snap!

The Putin bad bad bad remark? Yes I know, but I do try and take the other person's views into account, even if it is koods, or even psylinut2.

Not that this will resolve anything but we do have to have some sort of respect for each others opinion otherwise it's just a bun fight.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius] * 1
    #27726129 -

:hi5:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27726132 -

I do think this will end with Russia controlling Donbas or them being completely repelled. If it’s a war of attrition, Russia is screwed. 30,000 dead or injured. It’s Afghanistan with a highly trained and competent military.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27726143 -

It's a mess that could've been avoided, that's for sure.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27726146 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Violent suppression of protest?  You still don't seem to be aware that events were staged to get a reaction.  The violence was caused by Nazis shooting at peaceful protesters.  We can start another thread about it if you like, but by now, you should have read enough examples of Nazis doing similar things in the current conflict, with hundreds of witnesses of this in Mariupol.  Here's a link to a video I posted where a Nazi leader is bragging about how the Nazis worked with the US during Maidan (the whole video is interesting, but the Maidan discussion is from 1:23 - 2:15), and that without them, Maidan "would have turned into a gay parade".

Again, I agree with you in principle.

Russia has attempted a peaceful resolution for 8 years, and I think they're fed up with continued US/Ukrainian NATO threats, and total disregard of the Minsk agreements.  While your idea is sound, I think it's too late, in my opinion.  And there's no way the US would be ok with this; Crimean control is still an ambition (which is why I believe the war hasn't ended yet).

I think it's you who needs to be more aware your inherent biases.  The new Government is about as bad as the old one, except now we're happy because it's a US puppet Government.
:shrug:



I mean, if you're unable to even acknowledge the oppressive actions of the Ukrainian state during the euromaidan protests, I don't see how you can say you're interested in a bilateral resolution - it almost seems as if you're suggesting that police violence towards protesters was a US-orchestrated false-flag. If that's truly the case, what compromise could there have ever been? Police violence towards protests is almost axiomatic in my opinion, and your inability to acknowledge such a basic thing is immensely telling.

Russia has never been a good faith participant in peaceful resolution. You want an example of belligerently enforcing a unilateral resolution? The elections in the Donbas happened in direct contravention of the Minsk protocol; but the Russian state not only accepted the results, it has used military power to enforce the results. I'm not out here trying to say the Ukrainian state has always acted in good faith, but if you can't even acknowledge that Russia has also displayed disregard to the Minsk protocol, I'm not sure how you can say you're interested in bilateral resolution.

And what are my internal biases? I gave you a specific explanation of how 'coup' carries the implicit bias of 'installation of autocratic regime' - while your response is essentially 'not me, you!'

I really don't understand why you feel the need to say you agree in principle to something that you seem to fundamentally disagree with, but I'll ask you again (and maybe you'll actually answer this time: if you disagree with my assessment, but still agree with the principle of the Belfast agreement, then how would you see such an agreement implemented in Ukraine?


--------------------

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Stable Genius]
    #27726155 -

Stable Genius said:
It's a mess that could've been avoided, that's for sure.


Yes Ukraine should have been granted NATO membership years ago


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #27726176 -

shivas.wisdom said:
I mean, if you're unable to even acknowledge the oppressive actions of the Ukrainian state during the euromaidan protests, I don't see how you can say you're interested in a bilateral resolution


But I just told you about the oppressive actions that took place.

shivas.wisdom said:
- it almost seems as if you're suggesting that police violence towards protesters was a US-orchestrated false-flag. If that's truly the case, what compromise could there have ever been?


Maybe none, I don't know.  :shrug:

shivas.wisdom said:
Police violence towards protests is almost axiomatic in my opinion, and your inability to acknowledge such a basic thing is immensely telling.


I think you're oversimplifying this as "police violence".  The violence was from the Nazis, who prevented the protests from being a gay parade.  I don't expect you to take my word for it, take it from a Nazi leader in the video I posted.  Plus the additional evidence about the Nazis from the current conflict.  If you want, you can start a new thread on this.

shivas.wisdom said:
Russia has never been a good faith participant in peaceful resolution. You want an example of belligerently enforcing a unilateral resolution? The elections in the Donbas happened in direct contravention of the Minsk protocol; but the Russian state not only accepted the results, it has used military power to enforce the results.


From your article:  "the Russian Federation's position of respecting the results of the election does not necessarily mean an official recognition of the results."

If you think Russia used military power to enforce the election results, then I'd like to see your evidence.

shivas.wisdom said:
I'm not out here trying to say the Ukrainian state has always acted in good faith, but if you can't even acknowledge that Russia has also displayed disregard to the Minsk protocol, I'm not sure how you can say you're interested in bilateral resolution.


Do "respect" and "recognize" mean the same thing to you?  Russia never recognized the Donbas regions until the start of the current conflict.

shivas.wisdom said:
And what are my internal biases? I gave you a specific explanation of how 'coup' carries the implicit bias of 'installation of autocratic regime' - while your response is essentially 'not me, you!'


I agree - a coup carries the implicit bias of 'installation of autocratic regime'.

shivas.wisdom said:
I really don't understand why you feel the need to say you agree in principle to something that you seem to fundamentally disagree with, but I'll ask you again (and maybe you'll actually answer this time: if you disagree with my assessment, but still agree with the principle of the Belfast agreement, then how would you see such an agreement implemented in Ukraine?


I don't fundamentally disagree.  If you can convince the US and Russia to your suggestion, I'm all for it.  I just think realistically it's too late.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods] * 1
    #27726180 -

koods said:
Yes Ukraine should have been granted NATO membership years ago


Ya, let's nuke the planet!!!
:doublefacepalm:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27726212 -

koods said:
Stable Genius said:
It's a mess that could've been avoided, that's for sure.


Yes Ukraine should have been granted NATO membership years ago


:thisisheavyman:  :epicfacepalm:  :nojustno:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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