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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: iggyhiggy]
    #27720586 -

Quote:
Global outrage builds over slain civilians in Russian retreat; Zelenskyy visits Bucha, where mass graves found: Live Ukraine updates



https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/7265726001


Quote:
not even considering that the real situation can be just a bit more complicated, that there are nuances and that the truth can be somewhere in the middle or completely elsewhere.


It's not that complicated , either Russia is committing war crimes or the Ukrainians are rushing in and killing civilians that Russia was protecting and blaming Russia .

One side of the media has people there , interviewing people , the other side is the one accused of committing the war crimes .


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Edited by Psilynut2 (04/04/22 09:37 AM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 2
    #27720627 -

i wasn't speaking specically about this last atrocity. this in particular seems to be binary: either the Russians did that mas graveyards, or the Ukrainians.
I'm talking, more than about single events, i'm talking about the war. Just to be clear, my take is that most of the responsibilities for this war fall on Putin. This doesn't mean that NATO doesn't have a share. This shouldn't make forget about wars and other...activities...NATO or US carried and are carrying on around the world. same for some EU countries. There are not plain good guys when it comes to geopolitics.
Also this shouldn't make anyone cheering on deaths from either side, please don't lose humanity.

there is much more, but what really piss me off is that passive acceptance of truth from some source, rarely questioned or checked. Even more rarely contextualized in a general wide frame.

for 'truth' here i dont mean the accuracy of single facts, but the depiction of the 'big picture' as good vs evil. keep in mind that modern propaganda (especially the effective one) isn't built up of complete lies. it's built on facts. It's about reporting the most convenient facts interpreting them the most convenient way. then, if needed, a pinch of lies are added in the soup.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: pineninja]
    #27720642 -

pineninja said:
I'd never ever even try and guess what falcon truly does or does not know..........BUT as a guess... id imagine it wouldn't be much.


I guess the fundamental question is this; does falcon know anything? And I'd argue none of us do, even moreso.  But until it is proven that falcon actually doesn't know anything it's going to be hard to verify he knows as little as you say


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theRealrollforever said:
That’s not possible; even with computers

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: theRealrollforever] * 1
    #27720649 -

So the US is apparently targeting Pakistan for regime change now.

Apparently their government is a little too friendly towards Russia and China for the Pentagon's taste.

Doubtful it will work. The empire is collapsing at a truly rapid rate.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: iggyhiggy]
    #27720655 -

Quote:
This shouldn't make forget about wars and other...activities...NATO or US carried and are carrying on around the world. same for some EU countries.


 
Sure , but if that's all you want to talk about , if you always want to deflect criticism of what Russia is doing to that and you pretend I have no right to criticize Russia because of shit that happened when I was a kid or wasn't born and you act like Russia is the just victim of western media reporting I'm going to assume you love what Russia is doing , you support the war and Its going to be really hard to have the same kind of respectful conversation we would about tax policy or gay cakes .


  If your main concern is stuff other countries are doing just say you support Russia's war and I'll respect your honesty .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #27720666 -

On the massacre in Bucha:

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2022/04/the-bucha-provocation.html#more

The Bucha 'Russian' atrocities propaganda onslaught may have worked well in the 'west' but it lacks evidence that Russia had anything to do with it.

The former Indian ambassador M.K. Bhadrakumar calls it an outright fake:

An indignant Moscow has angrily demanded a United Nations Security Council meeting on Monday over the allegations of atrocities by Russian troops in areas around Kiev through the past month. Prima facie, this allegation is fake news but it can mould misperceptions by the time it gets exposed as disinformation.

A Tass report says: “The Russian Defense Ministry said on Sunday that the Russian Armed Forces had left Bucha, located in the Kiev region, on March 30, while “the evidence of crimes” emerged only four days later, after Ukrainian Security Service officers had arrived in the town. The ministry stressed that on March 31, the town’s Mayor Anatoly Fedoruk had confirmed in a video address that there were no Russian troops in Bucha. However, he did not say a word about civilians shot dead on the street with their hands tied behind their backs.”

Even more surprising is that within minutes of the “breaking news”, western leaders — heads of state, foreign ministers, former politicians — popped up with statements duly kept ready and only based on the videos, seconds-long videos and a clutch of photos, ready to pour accusations. No expert opinion was sought, no forensic work was done, no opportunity given to the accused to be heard.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #27720870 -

I don't negotiate with communists


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theRealrollforever said:
That’s not possible; even with computers

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27721002 -

Psilynut2 said:
It's not that complicated , either Russia is committing war crimes or the Ukrainians are rushing in and killing civilians that Russia was protecting and blaming Russia .

One side of the media has people there , interviewing people , the other side is the one accused of committing the war crimes .


As was previously said, it's a lot more nuanced than that.

Scott Ritter noted:
Quote:
The linkage between the dead and the Russian military was established immediately, without any fact-based data to back it up, and subsequently echoed in all forms of media – mainstream and social alike. Anyone who dared question the established “Russia did it” narrative was shouted down and belittled as a “Russian shill,” or worse.

That these conclusions are the byproduct of mass hysteria is beside the point – why seek to be objective when the narrative fits every stereotype that had been carefully assembled beforehand by the same people parroting the Bucha story today. Social “preconditioning” of an audience unused to critical thinking is an essential step in getting this audience to accept at face value anything that is put before it, regardless of how egregiously the facts of the story strain credulity.

The chronology of the narrative produces the first red flag that the story being peddled by Ukraine, and echoed in the West, is not what it seems. It is established fact that Russian troops evacuated Bucha on March 30. Ukrainian National Police began entering Bucha on March 31, and that same day the mayor of Bucha announced that the town was fully under the control of Ukrainian officials. At no time was there any suggestion by the mayor or any other Ukrainian official of mass killings undertaken by Russia. The videotape in question was released by Ukrainian authorities on April 2; it is not certain if the video had been taken earlier, or on that day. What is certain is that the images shown in the video differed sharply from the narrative initially portrayed by the mayor.
.
.
.
...US President Joe Biden. “You saw what happened in Bucha,” he explained in comments to reporters, adding that Russian President Vladimir Putin “is a war criminal.” Biden took advantage of the Bucha crisis to advocate for the delivery of more weaponry to Ukraine.

All this from the president of a country which has refused to recognize the International Criminal Court. For reasons which should be obvious to anyone willing to apply some critical thought.


Edit:  Chopstick already beat me to it.  :thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/04/22 03:18 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27721098 -

What is the child molester’s opinion on war crimes?

What about the washed up comedians? Do they have opinions?

I’d like to point out that Scott Ritter was fooled by an adult detective pretending to be a 15 year old girl, but we’re supposed to trust his judgement about what happened in bucha. :lol:


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (04/04/22 04:54 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27721129 -

koods said:
What is the child molester’s opinion on war crimes?

What about the washed up comedians? Do they have opinions?

im shure if bidens nominee gets voted in you will have more than enough pedos to  ask these questions 😂🤣 gotta love soft on crime policys.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27721164 -

koods said:
What is the child molester’s opinion on war crimes?

I’d like to point out that Scott Ritter was fooled by an adult detective pretending to be a 15 year old girl, but we’re supposed to trust his judgement about what happened in bucha. :lol:


As was previously pointed out, it has NOTHING to do with his military knowledge.  He was right about WMD's not being in Iraq, and he got the same condemnation back then.

You're ignoring the facts and changing to an unrelated topic.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27721221 -

pineninja said:
I'd never ever even try and guess what falcon truly does or does not know..........BUT as a guess


Ok Fal, I removed the part that triggered you as it wasn't pertinent to the point I was making. The point was that somewhere in his post he deliberately contradicted himself in a similar way to your post.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27721230 -

Some cold hard truth from one of my favorite twitter accounts (withinsyriablog):

https://twitter.com/WithinSyriaBlog/status/1511091129453887489?cxt=HHwWgoC-pYnYvPgpAAAA

(on Zelensky)

"All what this man had to do was to follow reason and basic logic, but he went after an imaginary world where NATO will go to a nuclear war with Russia to please his neo-Nazi friends."

"He was in power to stop the Russian attack, he could have done so much, but he destroyed his country to appease Banderites. Just remember all of this would have been avoided had Ukraine just respected and implemented the Minsk agreement. They could have even retaken Donbass."

"Now Ukraine is in ruins, billions in losses, ten of thousands killed, vast lands lost, wont likely return anytime soon, no NATO, no EU ... Just more weapons to keep the fire going ..."

"Congrats Mr. Zelenskyy, you lost your country, but you definitely won Twitter ..."

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27721242 -

Quote:
As was previously said, it's a lot more nuanced than that.



    For you maybe .  Hard to argue with satellite images though .

Quote:
Satellite images show bodies lay in Bucha for weeks, despite Russian claims


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/04/world/europe/bucha-ukraine-bodies.html


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #27721306 -

I actually thought for a minute the other day that falcon would just stop posting here after his Russian troops committed such horrible war crimes, but he has no shame and he’s even worse. It’s really disgusting.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #27721317 -

Um, did someone forget there was a war going on there?  Of course there were dead bodies.  Those satellite images don't show if the people were civilian either.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27721318 -

Oh oh, you called the special operation a "war", that's a naughty nelly right there. 15 years in the gulag.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27721323 -

koods said:
I actually thought for a minute the other day that falcon would just stop posting here after his Russian troops committed such horrible war crimes, but he has no shame and he’s even worse. It’s really disgusting.


But that hasn't been determined yet.  In fact, there may be more evidence it was Ukraine than Russia.  But the investigations seem to have been shut down so that we can blame Russia.  Don't you WANT to find out who did it?

Never mind, stupid question.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #27721333 -

chopstick said:
...
"He was in power to stop the Russian attack, he could have done so much, but he destroyed his country to appease Banderites. Just remember all of this would have been avoided had Ukraine just respected and implemented the Minsk agreement. They could have even retaken Donbass."
..."


He destroyed his country.
:facepalm:
Because Russian bombardments are just an inevitable force of nature huh? Jesus christ you two are a fucking joke. :facepalm:

ALL OF THIS COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED IF RUSSIA HAD JUST RESPECTED THE TERRITORIAL BOUNDARIES OF FUCKING UKRAINE. For fucks sake.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ONE OZ SLUG]
    #27721334 -

ONE OZ SLUG said:
Oh oh, you called the special operation a "war", that's a naughty nelly right there. 15 years in the gulag.


As I said before, RT is even calling it an invasion now, and you wouldn't have gotten 15 years anyway for calling it war.  And gulags went away shortly after Stalin.

But thanks for showing your gullibility to the mainstream news.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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