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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27429526 -

. . .  sequences of sensation/situation that morph into other sensations/situations. or a chain of perceptions with detail about "dream-like" or "trip-like" transitions.

Interesting you should mention that. A different take on it is that studies have shown that everyday waking thought and the non-linear (seeming) changes that can occur in dreams are not dissimilar.  Waking consciousness is, in fact, very much like dream consciousness in reality, but part of something within us that is our consciousness filters it so that we, the "I", the self, only consciously experiences a tiny, tiny part of what is actually perceived and determined. A peer-reviewed article on this subject states:

"Conscious experience during sleep (i.e., dreaming) has classically been considered a phenomenon entirely distinct from the spontaneous thought and imagery of wakefulness. But to the contrary, emerging evidence suggests that dream experiences may best be conceptualized as a natural extension of waking consciousness, overlapping in both phenomenology and neural mechanism."

Dreaming, waking conscious experience, and the resting brain: report of subjective experience as a tool in the cognitive neurosciences
Erin J. Wamsley*

I would say that the psilocybin or LSD has the ability to remove something that is also removed during dreams, but not necessarily in the same way or for the same reason.

Dreams really are a conversation between a level of self that sees and knows things the conscious self does not, that are filtered out or never known to begin with.  When we take hallucinogens and remain awake, some barriers to that dream-creating self most certainly are broken down, but some other things related to waking consciousness are not at all gone.

FWIW, science only recognizes three states of consciousness - waking consciousness, dream/REM states, and non-dreaming sleep. Awareness of new information or understanding does not constitute "consciousness." According to the science of consciousness, if I suddenly begin to see things that were actually always there, but my social training or lack of biology prohibited my perception of them, it is not my "consciousness" that is changed, but only my perception. 

Conversations like this can be confusing because of the many different ways people use the word "consciousness."

Edited by Cattle Dog (08/15/21 06:52 PM)

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: Cattle Dog]
    #27429576 -

yes the language used suggests concepts that may be close yet seem worlds apart as well,
Quote:
FWIW, science only recognizes three states of consciousness - waking consciousness, dream/REM states, and non-dreaming sleep. Awareness of new information or understanding does not constitute "consciousness."


I agree, the 3 clear states of consciousness map around the basic 6 states of the SALVIA scale and my very simple explanation of frame stacking :


IMO the effects are all one effect at different intensity, and that is the length of signal fade-out extension with it's experiential component being the density of single moment layers in the experience frame stack.

- like pressing the gas, increasing layers from 2 in normal waking to the most amazing at about 30 layers and then conking out dead asleep or blacking out.

as for filters, I see no need to propose perceptual filters for any of this.
it is not as if in normal waking consciousness that we have angels appearing suddenly but we just filter it out.
it takes a lot more frame stacking for that to happen. i.e. multiple simultaneous images from sensation and memory resonating and layered together.
and when it happens you cannot ignore it either.

Of course there is some filtering but it has to do with our activities, the operation timing of which would be disrupted by frame stacking which also affects coordination, reaction time, etc.
the apparently crazy unfiltered stuff is not really always there, not in the same way that you will bumble into it when heavily frame stacked.

the only difference between dreaming and being stoned is what happens when you get to sleep in the reticular formation, i.e. there is a huge 'nightly' filter dampening signals in and out of the skeletal musculature and proprioceptive sensation - basically to turn the body off and go to sleep.

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27432250 -

Natural born alchemist podcast 289 deep dream state, Jungian archetypes, lucid dreaming and psychedelics.

Might be worth a listen.

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: shuna] * 1
    #27432433 -

Well, you can call it a filter, or you can call it something else, but research shows that the human brain perceives about 11 million bits of information per second. The conscious mind, however, not only experiences only a tiny, tiny portion of that information, it constructs direct and linear connections between parts of the information that tell a coherent story that may not reflect reality at all.

Whatever word we make up for this phenomenon is just a word. It's made up. The reality is not made up. Obviously, no human has actual "filters" in their mind, nor do they have "frame stacking." Every human, however, perceives millions of bits of information they do not consciously experience.

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: FreeGalacticPrismr]
    #27432472 -

Free, I think the goddess of dreams is Ann Faraday. Her books are old, but they are excellent - The Dream Game, and Dream Power. 

I've read many dream theorists in my life, and several extras for my research, like Patricia Garfield, Fontana, Eugene Gendlin (excellent - Let Your Body Interpret Your Dreams), psychologists all, and many others, and I think Ann Faraday is the best for helping people understand their dream symbolism and meaning.

I suggest you go straight to Faraday. You won't be sorry.

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: FreeGalacticPrismr]
    #27432474 -

This is actually one of the 8-12 universal dream themes - failing or passing or anxiety about lack of preparedness for some kind important test. Not school, but the test. It doesn't have to be in school, it can be in court, in sports, on the job, in connection with hunting - it's the test, performing correctly, that is important and universal in all eras and cultures.

Edited by Cattle Dog (08/17/21 11:12 PM)

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: FreeGalacticPrismr]
    #27432479 -

Threaded.
I usually have intense very detailed dreams every night and multiple times every morning. I have been tossing and turning, waking up fully when I turn, and then when going back to sleep having really intense dreams. If I wake up in the middle of one to turn, I can go right back where I left off. This has been happening about 4-5 times a night for the last few years and begins around 3am. I usually go to bed around 9-10pm but have been staying up randomly due to no work schedule (not complaining one bit and will go back soon). I can tell when a dream is ending or over as well. I will try to write them down or maybe record it to dictate here later. I am very interested in dream analysis/interpretations. Numerology as well.


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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: Cattle Dog]
    #27432498 -

Years ago I had this dream about an incredible online forum that has stuck with me forever.  Totally impossible in concept but endlessly entertaining in practice.  Diligent searching ever since then has never turned up anything comparable, sadly. :shrug:

That would probably be THE dream that was most like tripping. :snoopyes:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: FreeGalacticPrismr]
    #27432590 -

I cannot encourage you enough not to reinvent the wheel.  Dreams have been of interest to people for thousands of years, possibly hundreds of thousands of years.  In the 20th century, after Jung and Freud, there was a great deal of research done on dreams, perhaps the most significant of which found that dreams are integral to learning.

Multiple laboratory tests have been conducted since the 1950s on sleep and dream states. Some of the most recent has been some of the most interesting. Researchers in Israel found that certain types of learning, including both information retention and what is called "procedural" learning, like learning to accurately shoot a basketball or master riding a bicycle as a young child does, require dream states or the individual doesn't make progress, doesn't learn.

This is completely separate from dream theory and dream interpretation. It is not essential that people remember their dreams for dreams to enable learning from daily experiences. However, some dreams absolutely are meant to be remembered and are a message.

Do not start from nothing in your efforts to learn what is formally called "dream theory," i.e., theory regarding the meaning of dreams. You will make big mistakes. Forgive me if I appear insensitive, but I mentioned how your focus on the school part in your analysis of the dream about school and taking a test was counter to prevailing dream theory. That's the kind of error you don't want to make. It's the kind that causes other errors from that point on.

Many dream theorists discuss these universal themes, and some experts say there are eight, and some say there are twelve. You need to read them for yourself. Garfield discusses these, and so does Faraday. The universal dream themes are found around the world and throughout time - they are not culture or era dependent, and this is important. You can probably find info about them on the internet.

For example, failure in travel is one of the universal themes.  It can be a car that breaks down, a plane breaks or you miss a flight, a horse and carriage that breaks down, a chariot, a rickshaw, or a person's shoes. It doesn't matter. The message is about not being able to get someplace you want to go. It may be a literal dream, as in your car is about to break, or your shoe is. You noticed the pending malfunction or signs of it subliminally, but you ignored it, you didn't want to think about a "problem." Or, your dream of your car breaking down may be symbolic and concerned with a pressing issue that is not working for you, that you are not making progress on, or have anxiety regarding.

Don't fail to take advantage of the many people who have already figured a lot out by asking the questions and taking down the information. Really. If you understand only one thing about dreams, understand that they are about the day's events, or the day before.  They are concerned with the now. But they don't tell us something we already know. If we knew the information, we wouldn't be dreaming about it.

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: Cattle Dog]
    #27432702 -

that's a strong opinion, with a quite a few strong premises embedded.

I concur that experience of the recent days' journey are likely players on the dream stage, and that the context of personal journey itself is the meat of the matter.

I also believe the research that shows that there is no gross neuronal behavior difference in dreaming sleep and waking consciousness even though there are obvious differences in the state of mind. Clearly this science is incomplete and does not yet warrant assumptions.

the movement in a dream sequence is often choppy, or jumps frames, and if you remember your dreams they can be fascinating and puzzling. Choppy movement and impediments to travel or progress probably go hand in hand in dream themes that are otherwise interpreted against the content of individual frames.

I think that data collected in the 50's related to learning is not exactly conclusive about dreams, but could be supportive to research on effects of sleep deprivation.

my guess is that you do not understand what I mean about frame stacking, and that is my fault not yours. we could take that off line, perhaps. or put it in a new thread in psychology...


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: redgreenvines]
    #27433065 -

"Dream theory" as described in this thread sounds very much like folklore.  To most people I've ever discussed it with, the common themes of dream are overwhelmingly obvious, and hardly need a theory to explain them.  This isn't science.

Science OTOH has been looking at the function of dreaming itself and finds it vital to survival.  Deprive rats of dreaming sleep by waking them repeatedly during it and they eventually die (11-32 days).  Deprive them of sleeping altogether and they also die (17 days). Therefore dreaming serves an important function besides passing the time of sleeping.  Sleeping, which occurs in all vertebrates without exception, restores waking brain function through circulation of cerebrospinal fluid and clearance of the waste products waking function creates:

Quote:
Nature:

During sleep, there is increased cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) movement into the glymphatic system, promoting waste clearance1. ... CSF moves not only into the brain and spinal cord via the glymphatic system, but also drains out of the central nervous system to the lymphatic system of the body13,14.Sep 2, 2020


It's no wonder that when this waste clearance process is going on any semi-waking consciousness (AKA dreaming) is going to be very different. 

I remember dreams most clearly, and by extension probably am having dreams that are more coherent, only shortly before waking up normally. Like this morning - a long, involved, if often silly dream that I could trace quite far back when thinking on it. Full of details like an almost-friendly large two tailed white dog that danced around me sniffing the alcohol I'd imbibed earlier from a Viking bow/horn of plenty made from cardboard (that's how it tasted).

OTOH if I wake up abruptly in the middle of incoherent dreams my brain remains confused for quite a while.  It takes a serious adrenalin shot to overcome this, like an emergency in the middle of the night creates.  But of course you pay for that clarity later like you do for any strong CNS stimulant.

Just saying here that mostly dreams don't really need interpretation, their content is usually pretty obvious, as is their source, if you develop the ability to recall them.  It's quite interesting to do if you're inclined that way, and I understand the appeal.

But none of this explains prophetic dreams however, and I and numerous other people have had those.  As well as prophetic trips. Not recall or digestion of autobiographical info but actual prediction of the future.

So whatever sort of barriers that break down in those situations break down in such a way as to admit outside information that didn't arise from current brain states.  Or perhaps connect such information across space/time in an evolutionarily beneficial way, a kind of wormhole.

There's yer mystery. :hereyougo:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: PrimalSoup]
    #27433127 -

Two days ago I had a dream where I asked myself if I was dreaming, because it seemed too strange. That question was enough to made me realize it was a dream. But unlike the typical lucid dream experience people share, I found it to be a pointless experience. I couldn't control the dream. I wanted to see certain people, but didn't know how to make them show up. I just walked around empty corridors that looked like stone platforms in Mario 64 and it was extremely boring. The fact I became lucid but didn't enjoy it was strange, though.

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: sylviaplath]
    #27433711 -

Lucid dreaming without exercising any of the "control" associated with that state can be absolutely phenomenal.  Don't knock it just because you might lose one night of conjuring your own personal harem.  :grin:



--------------------
Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #27433743 -

The Israeli research on learning is not from the 50s. I specifically stated that it was some of the "most" recent, but I did not state how recent.  In fact, "most" may have been generous. It is from circa 2000.

Dream theory is what it's called in the field of psychology, and numerous people have addressed the subject, including all the people I listed. I have no idea what you think is "folklore."

Actually, no, most people do not have a single clue as to what their dreams mean.  Maybe you do.  But most people do not. What most people say about their dreams is, "Man, I had the weirdest dream last night."

Digestion doesn't affect dream content at all, unless people dream about their digestion, as one woman I know did - she dreamed she defecated in her bed when she was struggling with small intestine issues that at the time she believed were kidney problems. Her dream told her it was her bowel that was her problem, but she didn't understand the message until later. What bad digestion does is it makes people uncomfortable enough to prevent them from falling into the deeper levels of sleep, and they remember their dreams more.

You are correct. None of it explains prophetic dreams, except it doesn't preclude them, either.

I know. Dreams are not a subject where I think that everyone's thoughts and feelings about them are equal. They have, in fact, been a universal part of cultures possibly since before modern humans. There is a lot to know about them. Lots of people have been interested in them everywhere around the world. 

I'm so pleased for you, primal, that you are so masterful regarding your own dreams. You are 100% subjective in your post, and frankly, you seem to  expect a lot of respect for that subjectivity, and I find it bizarre. Because you always know what your dreams mean, then everyone or even most other people do? 

That's absurd.  Especially considering that there is no way you can prove to me that you actually know what all your dreams mean. I have to take your word for it.

I can prove that many psychologists have written books about dreams, I have already named several, and I can prove what I say they have written on the subject.

If you have some axe to grind on the subject of psychology, I don't care or care to hear it, either.

Edited by Cattle Dog (08/18/21 11:16 PM)

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: Cattle Dog]
    #27433766 -

my dream's shlong is dreamier than everyone else's dream's shlong. 



--------------------
Give me Liberty caps or give me Death caps.

Edited by The Blind Ass (08/18/21 11:30 PM)

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #27433799 -

From the Biblical book of Matthew, chapter 12 --
Quote:
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation...


Dreaming is akin to the Method of Loci or Memory Castle mnemonic devices.

Most people have some personal policy or formative experience or gut instinct. They can't explain where it comes from. It was something they read from a placemat or cereal box. 

In the neighborhoods or individual rooms of this role playing game, are mixed up characters, vaguely resembling some movie line or cartoon character.


--------------------
WEF defector.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/shit-burgers-meat-made-from-human-feces-just-another-natela
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upload_(TV_series)

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: The Blind Ass]
    #27433801 -

You are correct, I did not understand specifically what you meant by frame stacking, but it was not hard to deduce. I looked into it, and it is a theory as to how the mind reduces its many sensory and perceptual experiences to create the limited information that is known to the conscious mind.

Like I wrote, for the purpose of my point it is only essential to understand that dreams can and do tap into all that information that did not make it to a conscious level. What we call that process that inhibits awareness or how we think it happens is tangential, and I agree, it belongs in another discussion.

Again, the data about learning is not only not from the 50s, it has been pouring in since about 2000, with ample research done in the last decade.  It was a surprise to researchers to learn that people did not learn a lot of types of new skills or knowledge unless they dreamed.

So, the moral of the story is, don't stay up all night cramming for a test!  Get enough sleep to dream, and you will test much, much better.

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: Cattle Dog]
    #27433827 -

Cattle Dog said:
You are correct. None of it explains prophetic dreams, except it doesn't preclude them, either.



Without much fixation, the images distort and disappear.

After some fixation, it is possible to interview the characters.

One person has a dislike of dogs, and presents as a rabbit from "Watership Down". Chased by dogs.

One sexually-repressed person presents as "Iris Steensma," the underage prostitute from "Taxi Driver".

I never especially liked either of these fictional universes and would never have been tempted to research them, except for a paraormal investigation. :shrug: idk what they were talking about, at first.


--------------------
WEF defector.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/shit-burgers-meat-made-from-human-feces-just-another-natela
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upload_(TV_series)

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: FreeGalacticPrismr]
    #27433846 -

I'll be glad to share one of my favorite dreams. It is one of my favorites because of its symbolism, and because it shows clearly the relationship between the day's events and the dream message. It also is clear that the dream was about problem solving. I had a subconscious answer that was not available to me consciously, but was given to me by the dream.

Before personal computers, and before most computers at all, most businesses that created a lot of documentation, like law firms, used word processing systems, the most famous of which was Wang. Before that all people had was typewriters.

For a short few years before personal computers there were a few personal word processing systems that were available for people to buy for their homes. They were expensive, running around $700 for something that we would consider extremely primitive for what it did. I wanted one of those word processors very much, and it was a  big cost for me.  It was the 80s, and it was almost as much as I paid in rent in those days.

One day after work I went to a store that sold word processors and checked out what was available. There were two top contenders of the day. One was a Brother brand, which was Japanese. The other was a Smith-Corona, which was American.  They cost the same, and one was much prettier, but I really wanted reliability.  I had no idea what I should do.

That night I dreamed I was driving through a national forest somewhere in the state.  There was a Japanese man running after me and chasing me, and catching up with me, even though I was driving. I was terrified. He grabbed the bumper of my moving car and stopped me in my tracks. 

The Japanese man walked over to the driver's side window and pointed his finger at me and said, "Tell her Aoki is the one!" I instinctively understood that he was Aoki.

Next I found myself driving to an office run by a forest ranger, who turned out to be a White American woman. I conveyed the message to her regarding "Aoki".

What was the dream message to me?  Buy the Brother word processor.

The choice was between two products from, notably to me, two different countries, represented by the "national" forest. The choice for the Brother brand was obviously chasing me down.  It was the right choice.  That thing still worked twenty years later, long after I didn't use it anymore.

But there is also the issue of the fear in the dream. That pertains to the financial anxiety the purchase instigated. It came in the form of being chased because it was important to me and it also gave me a lot of anxiety because of the cost.

Edited by Cattle Dog (08/19/21 06:56 AM)

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Re: Dream Research - Tell Me About Your Dreams! [Re: Cattle Dog]
    #27433861 -

Cattle Dog said:
Digestion doesn't affect dream content at all, unless people dream about their digestion, as one woman I know did - she dreamed she defecated in her bed when she was struggling with small intestine issues that at the time she believed were kidney problems. Her dream told her it was her bowel that was her problem, but she didn't understand the message until later. What bad digestion does is it makes people uncomfortable enough to prevent them from falling into the deeper levels of sleep, and they remember their dreams more.




:dafuq:  Original post:

PrimalSoup said:
...
Science OTOH has been looking at the function of dreaming itself and finds it vital to survival.  Deprive rats of dreaming sleep by waking them repeatedly during it and they eventually die (11-32 days).  Deprive them of sleeping altogether and they also die (17 days). Therefore dreaming serves an important function besides passing the time of sleeping.  Sleeping, which occurs in all vertebrates without exception, restores waking brain function through circulation of cerebrospinal fluid and clearance of the waste products waking function creates:

Quote:
Nature:

During sleep, there is increased cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) movement into the glymphatic system, promoting waste clearance1. ... CSF moves not only into the brain and spinal cord via the glymphatic system, but also drains out of the central nervous system to the lymphatic system of the body13,14.Sep 2, 2020


It's no wonder that when this waste clearance process is going on any semi-waking consciousness (AKA dreaming) is going to be very different.
...



Nothing about "digestion" in this at all.  Try and read the posts more carefully before going off half cocked.

:goodday:


--------------------

if you stand too close to the machine it'll start to eat you
Primal's simple tested teks and projects: :awesomenod: Wheat Prep 2.0  Acidic Tea Tek  Potency Project! 

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