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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: Byrain]
    #27477915 -

Exactly

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: koods]
    #27477919 -

koods said:
Quote:
So the argument is that there are many unreported people getting sick and / or dropping dead in places like Nigeria while no one is noticing?


This happens in the US. If you die of covid outside of a hospital without ever seeking medical attention you may not ever be counted as a covid death

Rich industrialized countries had a hard time keeping up, you think poor African countries have any chance of accurately accounting for deaths


While I understand where you are coming from and you do have a bit of a point, but there are a few issues with this.

1. This is the data we have available, for better or worse we have to start somewhere. If there are legitimate issues with the data from any individual country then it should be possible to elaborate on this beyond guessing. Our explanations of observations can always be updated upon new data, but refusing to analyze data at all is not going to help anyone.

2. When you compare the number of tests, positive cases, known deaths, population size and population density you can get at least some idea of at what rate people are dying in that country.

3. For something that is such a major worldwide issue would the media really ignore a massive influx of people dying from covid? You have reporters going out of their way to find unvaccinated people that die from C19 so they can make emotional appeals. Would they really skip over the headlines of massive death in a place like Nigeria? Especially when it would fuel the narrative against APOC countries doing relatively better.

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: Fiery]
    #27477941 -

Fiery said:
Since we're talking about covid I thought I'd share this little story here from another thread.

Quote:
I made a terrible decision to go to a Phish show a month ago and I was exposed to hundreds of people on the lot and in the show.


It was a terrible choice. However, 6 days later I got a covid test and came up negative. I was non-symptomatic but I wanted to be sure. I had completed both Mdoerna shots about a month prior.

SO if that's not proof that the vaccine works I don't know what it is. Because I *KNOW* people at that show and in the lot had covid. IT was everywhere. I had to have been exposed. I stopped at every tent on Shakedown street and was talking to tons of people.

NO ONE WAS WEARING A MASK! Not a single person. - Once again. Really bad decision on my behalf, but it was my birthday and I had FREE tickets to the Phish show and they were going for like $400 just for a damn lawn ticket.


Once again- dumb decision on my behalf that I won't be repeating-- but yeah. I've seen lots of the dead and company shows live from youtube and they look like some really chill fun!- But the virus thing is for real.



I want to mention- this was BEFORE The Delta Variant.

Now that delta is here I would NOT be repeating that. Even for a $400 ticket.



There are a few possible ways to interpret this story.

1. Vaccines did help this person not get sick, but its not known at what percentage of the attendees were vaccinated, protected and its not entirely known how long that protection will last.

2. That person did catch it, but did not notice because of a lack of symptoms. The test then was a false positive which is possible, maybe not likely?

3. That person has some kind of natural protection from catching covid at an earlier date and did not think to consider this possibility.

4. This person has some kind of natural immunity which plausibly exists, but its unknown how common this is. It may be rare.

5. This person did not actually come in close contact with anyone that was infectious long enough to also be infected. This is likely impossible to measure at this point.

I suspect a lot of people will only consider 1 and these possibilities aren't all necessarily exclusive. Personally I hope this person's experience of not getting sick was the common one at this event.

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: Byrain] * 1
    #27477991 -

Byrain said:
You have reporters going out of their way to find unvaccinated people that die from C19 so they can make emotional appeals.


:lolwut:


If by “going out of their way” you mean going to a hospital or just browsing social media to find one of the thousands of unvaccinated people who are needlessly gambling with their lives and then dying from Covid each day, sure.

Did you take Bod’s previous post as a challenge?

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: feevers] * 4
    #27478022 -


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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: morrowasted] * 3
    #27478047 -

At this point in the pandemic when so much information has been readily available for so long, most people who claim to be “just asking questions” are very rarely just asking questions... it’s almost always just a conduit to push their conspiracy or viewpoint.

Just asking questions would be “Can you link me to data about the risks of the vaccine compared to getting the virus so that I can make an informed decision?”

“Just asking questions” looks more like: “My cousin’s friend got vaccinated and had myocarditis. My chiropractor was telling me about how 13,000 people have died from the vaccine. All I’m asking is why I should get vaccinated and take that risk when the risk of me dying from Covid is close to zero?”

Secondhand anecdote followed by an easily debunked secondhand conspiracy theory or misinformation, followed up with a question that is already based on a strawman (implying that the only argument for getting vaccinated is preventing you from dying). It’s such a specific formula that you’d think it was a bot script or something but you see this same exact tactic everywhere in different forms.

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: feevers]
    #27478057 -

It's particularly obvious when secondhand anecdotes are being invoked to justify behavior but any second hand anecdotes that do not conveniently fit with the desired belief are just ignored

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: Crazy_Horse]
    #27478106 -

I had a vaccination and my dna is fine


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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #27478145 -

Does anyone realize I am not even an anti-vaxxer? If you think a vaccine will save you, then go out and get one. I only object that your sense of fear is a reason to use force or punishment upon people who may hold other views than you.

I must say some of those points are extremely ridiculous, especially the last three.

Quote:
Cite blogs and videos as evidence


Blogs and videos are forms of information and their quality is entirely subject to their contents. Do you really think its scientific to ignore entire mediums of information because someone somewhere once posted one that said silly things? Like scientific journals have never done that...

Quote:
Argue that "science has been wrong before"


What do you even think this means? Do we really need to go that far into the basics? ... Science is a way of explaining nature using observations and new observations can result in new explanations.

Sincerely I think many people in this forum could benefit from reading this.

https://www.geo.sunysb.edu/esp/files/scientific-method.html

Quote:
Claim to be "just asking questions"


Asking questions is literally step one in the scientific process.


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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: Byrain]
    #27478170 -

Quote:
For something that is such a major worldwide issue would the media really ignore a massive influx of people dying from covid? You have reporters going out of their way to find unvaccinated people that die from C19 so they can make emotional appeals. Would they really skip over the headlines of massive death in a place like Nigeria? Especially when it would fuel the narrative against APOC countries doing relatively bette


https://www.thedailybeast.com/nigerias-grave-diggers-bury-secret-covid-victims-every-day

Measuring Africa’s Data Gap: The cost of not counting the dead


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: Asante]
    #27478184 -

I am non-partisan and do not follow partisan politics, but was morbidly curious about the joke (Claim?) that covid-19 was able to choose between red and blue states. So I took the value of known cases and found out what percentage of those people died per state, but I only included the main states according to wordlpopulationreview.com.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

Percentage of total known deaths from covid-19 compared to the number of total known cases:

red states - "solid Republican"
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/red-states

alaska - 0.47%
alabama - 1.74%
idaho - 1.08%
kansas - 1.48%
montana - 1.33%
nebraska - 0.91%
north dakota - 1.26%
oklahoma - 1.41%
south carolina - 1.42%
south dakota - 1.49%
tennessee - 1.21%
utah - 0.57%
wyoming - 1.11%

average: 1.19%

----

blue states - "stable blue states"
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/blue-states

california - 1.49%
connecticut - 2.18%
delaware - 1.49%
hawaii - 0.93%
illnois - 1.70%
maryland - 1.97%
massachussetts - 2.32%
minnesota - 1.17%
new jersey - 2.40%
new mexico - 1.91%
new york - 2.26%
oregon - 1.15%
rhode island - 1.66%
vermont - 0.94%
washington - 1.16%

average: 1.65%

I still think this is a silly way of looking at the data, but I got to say I am a bit surprised that there weren't any red states that were 2% or over. Of course this doesn't make a distinction of vaccination status or when the deaths are occurring.

@koods, Interesting articles which raise many questions,but I am still stuck at my basic premise of "Deserves more investigation". Realistically it would relatively easy to conduct such comprehensive studies, it could settle this matter once and for all.

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: Byrain]
    #27478207 -

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#cases_community
If you go into the state view, you can see 7-day rates for new cases and deaths... compare california to any state in the south.

Edited by Lynnch (09/22/21 02:33 PM)

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: Lynnch]
    #27478298 -

Looks pretty partisan to me. States ranked from highest to lowest current covid case per day 7 day average per 100k.

22 of the top 25 states are Red states. Does a pretty good job of ranking how red or blue a state is as well. This war is being driven by stupid republicans

All of the top ten are red. all of the bottom ten are blue.

Alaska 117 29%
W.Va. 100 -2%
Wyo. 89 -10%
Ky. 87 -5%
Mont. 86 14%
Tenn. 75 -29%
S.C. 70 -25%
Idaho 67 -6%
N.D. 61 -6%
Ala. 60 -20%
Ohio 57 -8%
N.C. 56 -14%
Wis. 56 49%
Iowa 55 4%
Miss. 52 -18%
Ind. 49 -21%
Okla. 47 -15%
Ga. 47 -23%
Del. 47 3%
Tex. 46 -28%
S.D. 46 -28%
Ark. 46 -22%
Utah45 -14%
Fla. 42 -26%
Va. 41 -4%
Kan. 40 -24%
Wash. 40 -9%
Minn. 39 17%
Ore. 38 -19%
Neb. 38 -8%
Pa. 37 9%
Vt. 34 30%
Maine 34 2%
Nev. 34 -13%
Ariz. 34 -8%
Hawaii 33 -28%
Mo. 33 -14%
Mich. 32 4%
Colo. 32 -2%
R.I. 32 -8%
D.C. 32 0%
La. 31 -37%
N.H. 30 -6%
V.I. 30 -3%
N.M. 29 -6%
Mass. 27 6%
N.Y. 27 7%
Ill. 26 -18%
N.J. 26 -2%
Md. 20 1%
Calif. 20 -17%
Conn. 19 6%

Edited by koods (09/22/21 03:57 PM)

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: Lynnch]
    #27478303 -

I'm spent some time studying the numbers and its correct that most of the "Red states" are doing rather poorly. However I am finding the graphs at worldometer being more useful for understanding this.

Check out the active cases, daily new cases, and daily new deaths. At least with a mouse you can see the exact numbers by hovering over the data point in the graph. For example compare California and Alabama which my previous post indicated as a potential bad case.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/california/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/alabama/

Alabama seems to be doing poorly with daily new cases compared to last year and they are doing better with daily new deaths, but not nearly as much as California. Additionally Alabama has has a much sharper climb in active cases, but California's active cases have been consistently high also with no signs of dropping yet.

Its also worth noting that most of the Californian cases are in Los Angeles county and some other southern Californian counties, significant portions of the state further north was never hit that hard relatively speaking.

https://usafacts.org/visualizations/coronavirus-covid-19-spread-map/state/california
https://usafacts.org/visualizations/coronavirus-covid-19-spread-map/state/alabama

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: Byrain]
    #27478312 -

California has the second lowest rate in the country. What are you taking about?

Mississippi has the highest covid mortality rate for the entire pandemic for the entire country. California is 33rd

Are you looking at raw numbers? Los Angeles county has ten million people.

Edited by koods (09/22/21 04:04 PM)

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: koods]
    #27478323 -

Quote:
Alabama seems to be doing poorly with daily new cases compared to last year and they are doing better with daily new deaths,


Alabama is BY FAR the worst state for current deaths. 26 times higher than the lowest states of RI, Conn., DC, NH and NY



--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (09/22/21 04:13 PM)

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: koods]
    #27478337 -

Yeah we're doing pretty good with covid rn. I have noticed it's not mandated but all the signs have changed to please we recommend put a mask on. Everyone seems to be wearing masks and stuff again and if u see someone without a mask it's like whoa stay away no telling how unhinged that anti mask nut job is. But yeah last couple weeks everyone has masked up idk if they're telling people on the news to do it or what. But regardless now.u have wear a mask or look ass :shrug:

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: CHeifM4sterDiezL]
    #27478468 -

I should just believe the pharmacy companies and the media, they're so honest. What's wrong with me? I'm sure my (very pro vax) cousin is lying to me. He must want me to look stupid talking to strangers on the internet. Why would people question anything about this, how dare they...that's not how science works.

Why would someone be hesitant to trust Pfizer and J&J...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2875889/


TLDR- "Pfizer has been a “habitual offender,” persistently engaging in illegal and corrupt marketing practices, bribing physicians and suppressing adverse trial results."

I'm sure they've cleaned their act up and haven't done that since, and won't ever do it again. J&J also gets a mention in that article, I bet they carpool to church together. They are probably so poor from all their out of court settlements they have to these days.

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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: hummingbird]
    #27478480 -

Lol. Also this thread be like...


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Re: COVID-19 = SARS-CoV-2 - Novel Coronavirus Pandemic Main Thread - PART 3 (Third Wave 2021-2022 season) [Re: hummingbird]
    #27478533 -

hummingbird said:
I should just believe the pharmacy companies and the media, they're so honest..


Unlike with conspiracy theories, being informed on the current covid situation doesn’t rely on belief. The numbers and data are literally everywhere, from state to federal governments, hospitals and universities to independent research groups. The science of vaccine risk vs efficacy is so clear and simple it’s honestly astonishing we’re still having this conservation, which is why people are repeating the same things (objective reality does exist) and getting annoyed by the constant misinformation and people lazily just choosing whatever conspiracy theory they like best instead of taking the time to understand the situation.

No one likes big pharma, but not everyone feels the need to simplify everything into black or white, good and bad. What we have with the vaccine development were incredibly large and transparent trials by the companies that had the means of doing so along with government backed incentives. The product was made available for scientists across the globe to analyze. People keep using the “how can you trust big pharma?” line, the simple answer is that trust isn’t necessary when you have so much oversight on this vaccine initiative and so much data available.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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