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FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling?
    #26181755 -

I've been thinking about the best coir prep possible. I got to thinking about FDA Guidelines.

This is interesting to mushroom caretakers:

Quote:
The FDA recommends that food be cooled from 135°F to 41°F (57°C to 5°C) in six hours or less. This time limit helps prevent dangerous bacteria growth. But the guidelines don’t end there. The FDA Food Code has one additional rule: Food must be cooled from 135°F to 70°F (57°C to 21°C) in two hours or less. In this range, bacteria can double in as little as 20 minutes. The faster food passes through this temperature range, the better. Food workers have the rest of the six hours to take food through the remaining temperature danger zone, from 70°F down to 41°F (21°C to 5°C).

This entire cooling process is often called the two-stage cooling process. Some food workers learn it lik

e this:

Stage 1: Cool food from 135°F to 70°F (57°C to 21°C) in two hours.
Stage 2: Cool food from 70°F to 41°F (21°C to 5°C) in four hours.


With Coir prep, I could see a procedure where we do our 1 or 1.5 hour 170-140F hydration/pasteurization, then cool it fast to say, 100F and spawn our grains. I have been letting them cool overnight (buckets in a sleeping bag) and I venture to guess they reach 70F in about 12 hours. So I was doing the worst possible cooling method.

And what about grains? I am of the belief that PC'ing grains only really knocks the contaminates back long enough for the mycelia to get the upper hand. So perhaps letting my huge bags cool slowly overnight isn't such a great plan either. (jars would cool much faster)

Thoughts on this?


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Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: tedoro]
    #26181767 -

FDA guidelines are for food. You don't eat the coir or grains. Coir has no nutrients for bacteria/mold to grow on. The most I've ever done with my coir bucket is rinse it out between uses.

Yeah, PC'ing grains knocks down the contams long enough for the myc to grow. But it's a pretty big window. I usually 'noc my bags within 1-2 days of sterilizing. But I've read other experienced growers say they'll keep sterilized bags for a couple weeks before noccing them.

I've only been growing about 8 months, only had about 10-15 tubs so far, only had contam in one tub. But even in that contam'ed tub, it was a small green spot that got overrun by healthy myc.

Given my personal results, plus the fact that no trusted tek has ever mentioned anything about FDA guidelines, I'd say you're overthinking this.

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: badsponge] * 1
    #26181823 -

Got a pic of green being taken over by healthy myc in a bulk sub?  Usually in bulk tubs
by the time green shows up its established and will take over a tub in no time.

@op- I like the concepts here. For pasteurization though you want beneficial
bacteria to colonize your bulk before other nasties so quick cooling may inhibit
their growth, which is bad.

For grains I say use as quickly as possible and quick cooling helps there for sure.


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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26181831 -

Everything i heat cools pretty damn fast. Spawn jars are cool to use 6 hours out of the PC, i pour agar around 1 hour out, and coir only reaches 140 and then taken off heat, so id say it drops to usable temp in around 3 hrs.


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REPENT

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26181864 -

natedawgnow said:
Got a pic of green being taken over by healthy myc in a bulk sub?  Usually in bulk tubs by the time green shows up its established and will take over a tub in no time.


I didn't take pics, because I'd seen plenty of pics of trich by then, so I just assumed that's what it was, and I didn't think Shroomery needed yet another pic of some noob's trich. It appeared while my tub was still colonizing. When I saw it, my first impulse was to toss the whole thing. But it was the only tub I had at the time, so I thought I'd keep it just to see what happened. It never got bigger than a quarter on the surface, the myc kept growing around it, it slowly faded, and the tub went on to produce around 276 dried grams.

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: tedoro]
    #26182075 -

These guidelines are for food being prepared to eat. They are for determining food safety from a source which is not sterile to a destination which can be made ill under specific conditions.

Bacterial reproduction rates are different on many foods compared to something such as Coir which is pretty nutrient deficient. And pathogens that are negative for mushrooms are different than pathogens that are negative for humans.

Basically, guidelines about food consumption for humans are useful only for determining the safety of consuming food, they will not for example give you any information on keeping mycelium healthy.

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: Stephie] * 1
    #26182354 -

In proper pasteurization you generally want to cool the sub reasonably fast. If left at temp too long it can result in a partially sterilized sub. I find people’s recommendations for pasteurization times to be excessive anyways. I pasteurize for 60-70 min instead of the 90 min many people seem to do.


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:headbang3: Pastywhyte's Easy Writeups :headbang3: My Favorite Grow Logs :headbang3:
:headbang3: Avoiding the dreaded facepalm in cultivation :headbang3: The worst threads all have the same subjects :headbang3:
:headbang3: Q & A.M.U. :headbang3:

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26182407 -

How long do you think it takes for beneficial bacteria to colonize a pasteurized sub?


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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26182412 -

So do you Bucket tek and then pour into a tub after an hour or so? or how do stop it cooling. I need the deets pasty


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https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20643482#20643482

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26182504 -

natedawgnow said:
How long do you think it takes for beneficial bacteria to colonize a pasteurized sub?


I don’t know but I’m betting at least a day. No sense killing off more than is necessary. Trich is dead after 30 min at 130. 60 min at 150 is gonna be plenty.


--------------------
:headbang3: Pastywhyte's Easy Writeups :headbang3: My Favorite Grow Logs :headbang3:
:headbang3: Avoiding the dreaded facepalm in cultivation :headbang3: The worst threads all have the same subjects :headbang3:
:headbang3: Q & A.M.U. :headbang3:

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26182546 -

The bucket tek works great. I miss all the extra steps like sleeping bags.

I just do 9 at a time with verm in a large tote now, with a drill mixer to mix the day after. Let me know if you know a better/more effecient way than that.


--------------------
But if you're in a hurry, and really got to go
If you're in a hurry, might have to find out slow
That it's one thing to try and another to fly
You get there quicker just a step at a time
It's one thing to bark, another to bite
The show ain't over till you pack up at night

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: filthyknees]
    #26182906 -

Coir is reptile bedding it, doormats, and other things that stay wet and don't support contamination well at all. Food should travel through the danger zone at the recommended speed but :shrug: coir isn't going to grow bacteria in the danger zone anyway


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26182988 -

Coir verm + bucket is my jam for sure. Anything else is wasted effort.


--------------------
:headbang3: Pastywhyte's Easy Writeups :headbang3: My Favorite Grow Logs :headbang3:
:headbang3: Avoiding the dreaded facepalm in cultivation :headbang3: The worst threads all have the same subjects :headbang3:
:headbang3: Q & A.M.U. :headbang3:

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: Pastywhyte]
    #26183037 -

Word my posts were mainly in reference to bulk subs that need proper pasteurization
and grain.


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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #26183047 -

Ha! The FDA would shut us all down probably if they inspected home growers....

There are growers that dont even wash their hands before picking let alone disinfect their dehydrator trays or at the very least the Surfaces the mushrooms sit on.

I always tell people that get them from me "food grade!" I wouldn't want someone jerking off or fingering his g/f before handing me a bag of mushrooms....

I think temperatures for meat are irrelevant to mushrooms since mycelium doesn't contain bacteria like a egg or steak does.... those temps have to be kept at all times in butcheries and the likes....I use to work for a butchery so I got use to taking temperature readings and recording them every few hours incase the health inspector showed up and wanted the logs for whatever reason.

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: Fun-G]
    #26183079 -

Interesting point brought up by the OP, and perhaps would be “ideal” for certain bulk sub pasteurization. However, when it comes to CVG subs, i dont believe itd make any difference. Not only that, but we must consider that food items are highly regulated, as contaminated food has the potential to kill someone.

I dont think quickly cooling pasteurized subs or PCed grains according to FDA standard would have any measurable effect on yields or growth. If your cultures are clean your subs will almost always be clean too. I usually let my grains chill in my PC for about a day before i have time to noc them up. When i finally open the PC, although room temp, theres still a slight pressure gradient, which means itd be so unlikely for any contams to enter while cooling. Not only that but commercial gourmet growers dont even bother with that process either.

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: Fun-G]
    #26183278 -

Fun-G said:
Ha! The FDA would shut us all down probably if they inspected home growers....

There are growers that dont even wash their hands before picking let alone disinfect their dehydrator trays or at the very least the Surfaces the mushrooms sit on.

I always tell people that get them from me "food grade!" I wouldn't want someone jerking off or fingering his g/f before handing me a bag of mushrooms....

I think temperatures for meat are irrelevant to mushrooms since mycelium doesn't contain bacteria like a egg or steak does.... those temps have to be kept at all times in butcheries and the likes....I use to work for a butchery so I got use to taking temperature readings and recording them every few hours incase the health inspector showed up and wanted the logs for whatever reason.


I doubt it. Just like all produce, they don't go to the fields and make sure the workers are all clean as fuck or the dump truck taking the potatoes is clean. Because its not cooked food or food prep. Mushrooms are produce too. Much different than regulations in a restaurant or butcher


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26183282 -

Yup...that is why we wash and/or cook produce. Most of our food starts out in anything but sterile conditions! Lol

You eat beef? Go visit a cattle ranch and see how sterile their operation is. It's so sanitary you can smell the place a mile down the road...lol

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #26183306 -

bodhisatta said:
Fun-G said:
Ha! The FDA would shut us all down probably if they inspected home growers....

There are growers that dont even wash their hands before picking let alone disinfect their dehydrator trays or at the very least the Surfaces the mushrooms sit on.

I always tell people that get them from me "food grade!" I wouldn't want someone jerking off or fingering his g/f before handing me a bag of mushrooms....

I think temperatures for meat are irrelevant to mushrooms since mycelium doesn't contain bacteria like a egg or steak does.... those temps have to be kept at all times in butcheries and the likes....I use to work for a butchery so I got use to taking temperature readings and recording them every few hours incase the health inspector showed up and wanted the logs for whatever reason.


I doubt it. Just like all produce, they don't go to the fields and make sure the workers are all clean as fuck or the dump truck taking the potatoes is clean. Because its not cooked food or food prep. Mushrooms are produce too. Much different than regulations in a restaurant or butcher


I was speaking on terms of home cultivation, not commercial. No one washes dried cubensis that's why I treat them as sanitary as possible during a harvest, weigh in, packaging etc.... sometimes I'm not proud to admit but I'll drop one or a few on the floor and that makes me think of the health departments guidelines for safe food handling long before this thread on the fda's guidelines. The mushroom farms around here mandate the workers to wear gloves at the very least, I did mushroom picking on a farm for shits and giggles once before, I do live in a farming peninsula.


I appreciate that clarification to my post. There's no excuse to blow your nose and then harvest a crop without washing the hands is what my mentality is set in stone at.

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Re: FDA guidelines for cooling food. Can we improve our Mush prep cooling? [Re: Fun-G]
    #26183477 -

You'd be horrified at how spices are handled. And they also don't wash the bottles from the manufacturer.


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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