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Offlinemanna_man
High onlife.....andcrack

Registered: 06/10/03
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Does the beast know death?
    #2593750 - 04/23/04 05:14 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

A few weeks ago, my friend and I somehow got into an argument concerning this very question.

      Take the common scenario you see on the Discovery Channel: there's the nice peaceful wildabeast frolicking about the African Savannah, nonchalantly drinking from the local water hole. However, unbeknownst to the poor wildabeast, the cheetah lurks from within the tallgrass, strategically drawing closer and closer to its unsuspecting prey. It waits for just the right moment, and then strikes, sending the wildabeast into an immediate flight response. The chase between predator and prey ensues.

Now here's the question:      Why does it run?

Is it because all animals have a concept of death, and that the only reason it runs is to avoid its death? Does the animal -hypothetically speaking- think to itself: "Oh shit, if I don't get my ass outta here this things gonna kill me."


Or is it just some built-in instinctual response that is elicited whenever there is the presence of what it considers "danger"? Does it think: " Uh oh, something tells me that this cheetah is bad news, so I'm just gonna run based on this instinct I have."

( By the way, we're not talking about apes here, as it has already been scientifically proven that the orangutang has the ability to abstract)

Anyways, what do you guys think?
Kind of a dumb post yes, but just help me out so I can hopefully put an end to this silly argument I have with my friend. :biggrin:


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Offlinedaba
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: manna_man]
    #2593759 - 04/23/04 05:17 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

My perspective is that the beast runs from innate reaction (aka instinct); not because it is aware that "death" is coming for it, but moreso to allow its species to continue. It is just like when we rush towards animals, they tend to run away; even though we are not predators.

Now the big question is do animals have a conscience? I say no. They do not know death because they lack what we possess: the cerebral cortex, the "true" processor of the mind and spirit.


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Fold for The Shroomery!


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Anonymous

Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: daba]
    #2594822 - 04/23/04 02:45 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Now the big question is do animals have a conscience? I say no.




i think they do. but of course, heh, heh, i think trees do too.

i think animals know of death as well


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Offlinefaelr
the darkestlight

Registered: 04/12/04
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: manna_man]
    #2594884 - 04/23/04 03:03 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

manna_man said:
A few weeks ago, my friend and I somehow got into an argument concerning this very question.

      Take the common scenario you see on the Discovery Channel: there's the nice peaceful wildabeast frolicking about the African Savannah, nonchalantly drinking from the local water hole. However, unbeknownst to the poor wildabeast, the cheetah lurks from within the tallgrass, strategically drawing closer and closer to its unsuspecting prey. It waits for just the right moment, and then strikes, sending the wildabeast into an immediate flight response. The chase between predator and prey ensues.

Now here's the question:      Why does it run?

Is it because all animals have a concept of death, and that the only reason it runs is to avoid its death? Does the animal -hypothetically speaking- think to itself: "Oh shit, if I don't get my ass outta here this things gonna kill me."


Or is it just some built-in instinctual response that is elicited whenever there is the presence of what it considers "danger"? Does it think: " Uh oh, something tells me that this cheetah is bad news, so I'm just gonna run based on this instinct I have."

( By the way, we're not talking about apes here, as it has already been scientifically proven that the orangutang has the ability to abstract)

Anyways, what do you guys think?
Kind of a dumb post yes, but just help me out so I can hopefully put an end to this silly argument I have with my friend. :biggrin:



everything is alive and can see death coming. a better question would be, why the hell does a deer stare at the headlights of an on coming car?


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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OfflineJacquesCousteau
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: faelr]
    #2594982 - 04/23/04 03:27 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

The same reason a person stares at the headlights of an oncoming car.

It's in shock, or disbelief, or it's just "frozen with terror".

I mean, it's not like it sits there staring at the headlights waiting for the car to come down the road from a great distance.


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Offlinefaelr
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Registered: 04/12/04
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2594992 - 04/23/04 03:29 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

rhetorical question:smirk:
funny though


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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Offlinefaelr
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Registered: 04/12/04
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: manna_man]
    #2596080 - 04/23/04 09:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

now if you were talking about the beast as in "666, THE BEAST" then he knows death very well.


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: faelr]
    #2596082 - 04/23/04 09:42 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Who?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefaelr
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: Swami]
    #2596098 - 04/23/04 09:48 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

the supposed anti-christ who bears the mark of the beast "666", to signify the end of the world. Hint: see satyrical humor.:smirk: you kick ass swami!:lol:


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where i walk, i walk alone. when i fight, i fight alone. i am no one and i am nothing. yet all is that i am.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: faelr]
    #2596138 - 04/23/04 10:08 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

What is funny to me is that Christians the world over are looking for the "666" mark. Naturally, every single movie gets it wrong. The Hebrews did not use the Roman numeral "6" when that was written, so that makes no sense. Someone better educated than me could tell the what the actual marking would look like (if the prophecy has any validity).


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinemaggot
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: manna_man]
    #2597018 - 04/24/04 02:34 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

i heard on tv somewhere that lions have a 5-10% chance of catching its prey.
the antilope runs because it has a chance of survival. if it wouldnt, i think there would be no instinct to run in the first place.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: maggot]
    #2597052 - 04/24/04 02:47 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, it's all the mindset. If a creature has hope, it jumps at it. If it completely gives up all hope, it just sits back and dies, or (in the case of humans) may end it's own life.

And I believe that animals know death as a primitive human would know death. They wouldn't know the science of it, but if another passed, they'd feel the passing and longing for them, and when they are threatened, instinct tells them to run, otherwise they will feel pain. In the point between running from their prey and escaping, I doubt they really think, "FUCK THIS IS THE END FUCK FUCK FUCK!" or anything at all for that matter, it's all fight or flight then. Even humans don't know death, and we're supposedly the smartest creatures on this planet. We know the science of it, the existence of it, but most humans can't even come to terms with the inevitability of death, less likely truely understand it.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: Ravus]
    #2597067 - 04/24/04 02:54 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

At least the antelopes are not so primitive as to make up stories of a heaven to ease their fear of lions. They are much more zen than the average hominid.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: Ravus]
    #2597080 - 04/24/04 03:04 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well, maybe it's just genetics.  :grin:

Maybe at one time all wildabeast had that gene that causes us to fight or flee.  But let's say that the wildabeasts that stayed to fight were eaten, and the wildabeasts that fleed, survived.

Mendal, ya know.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: Frog]
    #2597095 - 04/24/04 03:13 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

wildebeest

Mendel

:shake:


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: Swami]
    #2597116 - 04/24/04 03:28 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Well, wtf do I know?  I just post here.  :grin:


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Offlinemanna_man
High onlife.....andcrack

Registered: 06/10/03
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Loc: Vancouver
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: Swami]
    #2597121 - 04/24/04 03:33 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
At least the antelopes are not so primitive as to make up stories of a heaven to ease their fear of lions. They are much more zen than the average hominid.




:lol:

And thanks to Maggot & Ravus for putting this thread back on topic. Phewf! :thumbup:





I'm starting to wonder whether death is learned in humans or not. And not just death, but danger in general.

  If you send your average two year old human infant out on a busy highway, chances are, the baby will not be able to recognize the danger of these fast moving objects, and will probably be drawn out of curiosity even closer ot the cars, resulting in no more baby.

      For humans, one of the most common examples of a potential "predator" is the vehicle on the highway. If knowledge of death and danger were truly innate, wouldn't we  have an instinctual avoidance response to the presence of cars (a potential life ender).

    Because these insticts are not present in humans, we have to rely on the experience of our parents, who teach us that cars are bad (that they have potential to kill us).

And thus, the conclusion follwos that since animals do not posses the abillity to teach, or even to conceive of such abstract concepts as death, then they would only recognize the predator as a source of "danger" , and not as a potential life-ender.


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OfflineOOISI
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: manna_man]
    #2600127 - 04/25/04 06:32 AM (12 years, 7 months ago)

animals have no thought they act on will ...

since the cheetahs concocting a negative thought the wildabeast senses
something isnt right (DOESNT react but is alert)

i THINK


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OfflineViaggio
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: manna_man]
    #2600696 - 04/25/04 01:17 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

I disagree, manna man. I think a beast will run because (simply put) it has seen other beasts die. I doubt the simple concept of death is taught, but rather learned or recognized.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Does the beast know death? [Re: Viaggio]
    #2601167 - 04/25/04 03:19 PM (12 years, 7 months ago)

Assuming that Wildebeasts have a form of communication with one another--however primitive, I agree.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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