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Best chemical activators of spores for germination? * 1
    #25926786 -

I read that many compounds can activate / stimulate spores for germination, like alcohols, aldehydes, esters, carboxylic acids, and in general acids and bases although I don't think the latter are so great if you need to use significant amounts since that would change the pH.

Volatile compounds don't seem so ideal either, especially if various of these agents can be stimulating in tiny amounts but become antifungal at higher concentrations - or consider the reverse, that certain commonly used antifungals can be stimulating in very small amounts. How's that for homeopathy? :laugh:
No but srsly homeopathy is bullshit, and the above is not even mithridatism.. just seems that one of the ways they can help is to make the spores a little permeable so that interaction with the environment is enhanced, but too much and i guess you're blowing the whole thing wide open.

Aaanyway.. what would be the best compound for helping to germinate very old spores? Ideally a common chemical that is available pure.


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: Solipsis]
        #25926931 -

    Best? Who knows? Maybe the growing mycelium, which also is known to emit some of these volatile compounds.
    At least it's natural whatever the compound is. Said to help in some button mushroom texts...


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: Speeker]
        #25927013 -

    OK maybe not the absolute best, but I was just wondering what an easy and relatively effective compound would be. The best known.

    Is there not some standard used by mycologists for old/tricky spores?

    Using mycelium is an interesting idea, but it would also make sense to me if mycelium has an inhibitory effect on primary decayers. Button mushrooms are secondary decayers right... so for them it would make sense if detecting primary decay would be stimulating to them.

    I should have been clear that I work mostly with primary decayers.


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: Solipsis]
        #25927065 -

    >primary decayers
    Okay, you just made this a bit more complex question. I have no clue what so ever.
    You search is as good as mine... :wink:

    Button has been known to be more or less tricky to germinate...
    So some stimulus might be helpful, those volatiles or some bacteria, etc, you know..

    What they usually used in those texts was button mushroom growing mycelium to help
    germinating button spores. We talked here it in some thread long long time ago...
    There I suggested an idea of using another species mycelium if one
    doesn't have the same species growing, but I don't think we tried it in
    practice. (or at least I didn't)...


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: Solipsis]
        #25927085 -

    Standard is using nothing. But for some species activated charcoal or furfuryl alcohol might be useful. But for most saprotrophic mushroom it is not necessary. Mycorrhiza on the other hand are hard to germinate and sometimes require some chemical help.

    Edited by Buthoscorpio (04/10/19 03:06 PM)

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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: Buthoscorpio]
        #25927122 -

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormesis


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: bodhisatta]
        #25929026 -

    Thanks that's (hormesis) very interesting and exactly related to what I was talking about. :smile:

    Obviously using nothing is standard for standard practices but I mean standard for adding something to enhance germination..

    Where did you get this about furfuryl alcohol or charcoal and is any of that related to karrikins for plants? Cause that would make a lot of sense.
    Is furfuryl alcohol basically a karrikin sort of analogue and would burnt paper extract (charate) be good to use? The parallel with plant germination would be lovely.


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: Solipsis]
        #25929029 -

    Yea i just threw that link in here because I figured you'd be amused at learning a new word(unless you already knew) that explains what you described in the OP.


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: bodhisatta]
        #25959008 -

    Dextrose.....


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: Nichrome]
        #25960578 -

    ... uh thnx =D .. but i know how to generally lure fungi. What I'm asking about is a potent trojan measure that presses the buttons of even old spores to help them germinate, so more along the lines of hormonal triggers.

    Besides that, the activated carbon is interesting - it can apparently help with some mycorrhizal species and if i have this correctly it absorbs compounds that inhibit growth of the fungus, so I assume those would be excretions of the fungus. (Does this mean difficult mycorrhizal species require roots to take certain substances off their hands, and without the roots they rise to problematic levels?)
    I don't see how it could work for spores though, because if the spores are not germinated there is also no real metabolism or excretion right?

    But I do wonder about not charcoal but smoke / soot / half-burnt organic materials, to simulate a forest fire. It can stimulate plant seeds, but how about fungi?


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: Solipsis] * 1
        #25960665 -

    Spores likely only have receptor cites for detection of moisture and sugar. I would investigate what causes germination and how that is sensed


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: bodhisatta]
        #25961125 -

    Just a quick look in the opposite direction suggests there are ways fungi can inhibit each other's spore germination and usually what can be inhibited can be induced.
    Even if they normally sense just moisture and sugar [which seems rather simple to me when there is plenty more information available in an environment to suggest that it is better to wait with germination even if there are some key substrates present]... I think there should be ways to chemically or biochemically tweak other parts of a signal pathway to basically fake moisture and sugar being sensed, like more than the spore could ever dream of.
    Also, the permeability of the spore's hull seems to play an additional role in enhancing how much is sensed of the environment.

    A number of things I just mentioned may require relatively complicated biochemicals to manipulate the spore's machinery, and simpler compounds would be preferred.

    This is proving to be great reading thusfar:

    Quote:
    At the end of vegetative growth, as a consequence of nutrient exhaustion, spores are produced
    allowing the fungus to be dispersed, to survive or to enter a dormant state (30). Nutrient
    limitation or inhibitory compounds may impose this reversible phenomenon called dormancy.
    In the case of so-called exogenous dormancy germination proceeds as soon as environmental
    conditions are favourable. In contrast, in endogenous dormancy, the spores do not germinate
    even under favourable conditions. Specific treatments to activate the germination process are
    needed such as heating or exposure to polyacetylenes as describes for Puccinia carthamni
    (41). Dormant spores contain a pre-existing pool of mRNA and ribosomes, primed for rapid
    activation and translation in the presence of nutrients (58).



    https://edepot.wur.nl/121471

    The so-called self-inhibitors might also be a potential target, for example an inhibitor of the receptors those self-inhibitors act on.

    I know those are molds in the article but surely similar things are true about filamentous fungi.


    https://www.cell.com/trends/biochemical-sciences/fulltext/0968-0004(84)90321-9

    Also, I guess since germination can be tied to certain environmental conditions and events like light and temperature, although i asked for a chemical method, it seems also interesting to try various conditions with various dishes if its really necessary.


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    • Edited by Solipsis (04/28/19 06:00 PM)

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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: Solipsis]
        #25961414 -

    How about co2 or o2 concentration. I could see that as a potential chemical activator, or probably more correctly modulator, for basidiomycetes species.


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: bodhisatta]
        #25961970 -

    Yes true, those I have also seen mentioned. Generating a lot of CO2 wouldn't be a problem lol :wink: But higher than normal [O2] i wouldn't know how to arrange that beyond electrolysis of water which im not gonna do at this point. I could also fart on the spores of course but not for O2.

    I think you are also right that there are quite few actual activators of the germination but a lot of modulators involved in the process.

    Read about furfural too which may confirm my suspicions about forest fires being associated with modulators of spore germination.

    I am interested to make the furfural myself out of corn but i first need to get my distilling setup complete and going again..


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: Solipsis]
        #25961983 -

    By a cylinder of o2 from any hardware store. The red bottle.


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: bodhisatta]
        #25962340 -

    Appreciate it, but for now not gonna invest that money - i am not in the US so the bottle is not necessarily red - i do see it available but am not gonna get into that and buy the regulator and tubing and you name it.

    Maybe as a last result or if it was really known to be amazing already. I prefer to only invest in things i have regular/future use for. :smile:

    But it does raise an interesting point of how fungi react to O2 levels, we tend to focus on [CO2]...


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: Solipsis] * 1
        #25962344 -

    Buy some hydrogen peroxide collect o2 in a balloon. I believe you can catalyze the breakdown with bleach.


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
        #25963903 -

    PEG 400 would be a safe bet, polyethylene glycol is used at a much higher molecular weight in a process called protoplast fusion to hybridize mushrooms by softening cell walls. You could use 600 molecular weight added to your dishes in low concentration as it re solidifies at room temperature. It's really hard to believe this hasn't been further researched.


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: Professor X]
        #25963949 -

    Ah the peroxide is a cool idea but combined with bleach would generate chlorine gas which would be pretty terrible.

    PEG maybe, like many other compounds which can affect osmosis of the spores. Osmotic stress seems to trigger accumulation of trehalose.

    I am digging a bit deeper and it does seem like i thought i read before that trehalose is one of the key regulators involved. The explanation why heat and so many chemicals seem to help is that these factors disturb the permeability / osmosis in the spore cell walls and trehalose is stored in the inner most cell wall of the spore (at least of the species or family i am reading about) and is not consumed during dormancy.
    This can - of course at the right concentrations - lead to the trehalose leaking into the rest of the spore, activating it... from what I understand.

    For now I conclude that many of these chemicals you could add (or heat, cold and other triggers) may effectively all lead to the same result of releasing the trehalose. So I guess if you are using the appropriate concentrations of all, they may basically all work more or less the same and difference may lie more in whether they have other detrimental side effects on the spores we don't want.

    Of course just adding a certain amount of trehalose in the medium might work too? I guess you would dry out your spores a bit and then put on half strength agar with a tiny bit of trehalose in it and rehydrate the spores so that it diffuses in.

    At this point I am not going to expend a lot of effort getting trehalose if i can experiment with many much more common substances and try to pick what i think is the least potentially damaging.

    Unless I am wrong about this stuff... good to know why there may not necessarily be a point in trying to find that golden bullet.

    https://mmbr.asm.org/content/mmbr/48/1/42.full.pdf


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    Re: Best chemical activators of spores for germination? [Re: Solipsis]
        #25963977 -

    Afaik it wouldn't generate chlorine gas. Iirc its a way to obtain pure o2


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