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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25909186 -

He left his dogs with his sister the day he died...he had started asking her to keep them once a week. What you have said about Ice is true a lot, but as with many people he felt his online presence should be more aggressive. Im myself was of course this way at first, but I quit the forum because I did not want to answer to him online and justify statements, but in person and on the phone...and in emails with me was was mostly nice and constructive. He guided me through several changes that had far reaching impact on me. His advice was nearly always good, and he taught me a lot as his friend and gave me support when I went through things that were hard for me. Personally I try to make my online personae the same as my real in person. I also don't try to were a different mask for different people. Icelander was not really John as he was. My original trip through college was a a psychology major (3 years worth so I got a sense of the subject). I believe you are quite correct about him having some personality disorder, but many people are subject to them. It is not at all rare. As far as being gentle John was one of the most gentle and thoughtful people I have know. He might talk shit on the Shroomery, but up close he wouldn't cause unnecessary harm to even a small insect.

By the way for many years Ice suggested I contact you and talk by phone...he thought that some of what you knew would be of use to me, which is provably true, but I just hate using the phone...

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (04/01/19 10:43 AM)

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25909206 -

redgreenvines said:
is this tangentially about climate change for you?


no, just sharing my feelings like everyone else here. sorry if that confused you.

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #25909288 -

Kickle said:
Let me be the first to say that's really good to hear bro. And welcome back old timer.


Thanks, brother.  :heart:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #25909514 -

He may have suggested the same thing to me - contacting you. But I have always felt that it would be presumptuous to present myself to others. This is not humility, there must be a self-esteem issue. When I was being driven to a friend's house the day before I married my ex-wife, and I saw a bunch of cars in his driveway, I expressed that his folks must be having family over or something. Everyone in the car chuckled because the cars had brought people for me. It just didn't occur that my sibling and friends would've put something together for me. Nobody had made a party for me since my 5th birthday. :shrug: You are more than welcome to phone some time, we don't have to Skype and awkwardly look at each other. :lol: You can always PM me for my number. I've spoken to more Shroomerites than I've met IRT, but I have received 6 Shroomerites to my home, a couple have stayed with us.

I too try to maintain a consistent self-image IRL and on social media. I do receive mostly positive comments here from people who are attuned to the things I write about (it was years before I even knew there was a comments thing). Suffice to say, I do not have but a couple of local friends and they are not into the kind of stuff I am impassioned about. So, I remain on these forums for discussion. As Ice wrote in his final communication: "You are one weird dude dude. LOL Cheers!" Even my wife says I'm "unusual," and whereas that might mean 'special' to her, it seems more like a reason to avoid to the world at large.

I am glad that Icelander was helpful as well as kind to you. Apparently I reminded him of himself at a time when he was more trusting of the universe, only to be betrayed again resulting in his lifelong cynicism. As I said, I was not speaking ill of him because he evidenced illness. I have my own neurotic "schmoes." I do not have a diagnosable disorder, but I certainly have my share of anxiety and a bit of a phobia as well. But like my ex-wife who pushed me away with a betrayal I could not tolerate, Ice also pushed me away, but he apparently did that with everybody. I put him on ignore a couple of times but took him off that. Perhaps I saw him as a challenge, someone to win over to my perception of things. It doesn't matter now. I wasn't surprised after many years of talking about suicide, but I was saddened that he finally did it. :sad:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: MarkostheGnostic] * 1
    #25909985 -

I guess he always had the plan to self dispatch, since his arguments were strongly anti-human-life.

My main opposing efforts with him were to obstruct his efforts to convince younger members that his was the only way to see the world - i.e. it seemed to me that he was proselytizing suicidal solutions to evil or meaninglessness, which - as far as I am concerned - is unenlightened to say the least.

Often people who are uncertain of their views attempt to convince others that their ideas are the most correct, and if they succeed then they can relax into the certainty that they have built up around them in others' minds. I did mention this to him more than once, and it did not go well for me.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #25910075 -

I am certain it did not go well for you any more than my life-affirming (non-suicidal) view never went well for me. Any attempt to speak of God was met with cynicism in the form of the "Flying Spaghetti Monster," or some quote from Carlos Casteñeda. When I pointed out that Casteñeda's works were determined to be fraudulent, his so-called PhD dissertation work around Don Juan Matus complete fiction, my assertions about biblical material were denounced as fictional. Admittedly, much of the Bible is midrash, Hebrew story-telling similar to myth intended to illustrate a spiritual teaching. But, myth and midrash are still heads and shoulders above a 20th century charlatan who fraudulently obtained a PhD in anthropology from Columbia University on the basis of great literary fiction. My professor of Parapsychology, the Egyptologist Bob Briar met Casteñeda at Harry Houdini's grave on Halloween 1974 (a yearly thing in the 70s with all manner of esotericists), and said "There is no Don Juan Matus." Sorry Icelander, but basing one's life on the writings of Carlos Casteñeda is reminiscent of the movie Zardoz (that dystopian future culture based on The Wizard of Oz). The protagonist Zed (Sean Connery) discovers to his horror that his reality is based upon a fictional story, being used by a sinister political power.

I can understand the similar sentiment. The Roman Catholic Church was an extension of the former Pagan Roman Empire, and the midrashic story about Iesous was appropriated for similar ends, to control, extort money, and conquer. But the core story is about self-sacrificial love, not about power. The Casteñeda stories were all about power, astral plane power, moving into the astral plane and using it to change things in the physical world. It was about becoming "a man of knowledge" but a knowledge of astral "allies," "teachers," and 'entities' that were inimical to human life. This was not transcendental material, it took place in "the crack between the worlds," twilight, and for Icelander, the whole Casteñedan universe was a symbolism, I think, between life and death, an ontological cusp he teetered on for years. I hope his later considerations about Gnostic thought at least awakened him to a transcendental destination, a return to one's 'True Nature,' even if the Gnostic Pleroma or Ogdoad is just another myth. The "Ground of Being" is a much higher goal than an astral plane, a Clear Light versus a Bardo, a Logos versus some Pie-in-the-sky-when-we-die fantasy. :shrug:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (04/01/19 10:29 PM)

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25910139 -

redgreenvines said:
i.e. it seemed to me that he was proselytizing suicidal solutions to evil or meaninglessness


I buy into his views on suicide but not as a solution to evil. And I never saw Icelander spout that either. If you can find a post saying as much let me know. IMO you misunderstood his stance here.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Kickle]
    #25910414 -

I admit to a lossy memory and loose summarization as well as being skewed differently than him.

enjoy your purchase, just don't expect me to help you spread it around like a gospel.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: redgreenvines] * 4
    #25910478 -

Watching people debate his death in this forum is perhaps the greatest tribute to Icelander I can imagine happening on The Shroomery. We should all be so lucky.

While I don’t spend a lot of time in this forum, it has been quality time. I knew Ice from here, but we also fought the good fight a lot in the Shroomery trenches. Especially back in the day.

We almost modded him once, and unfortunately it was mishandled by us. Someone without the proper authority quite innocently promised him a position before the decision had been made, and the close decision ultimately came down against him. If memory serves, that was when he left. I can’t say I blame him. We did fuck that one up, and he had paid his dues. We strive to vote people in unanimously, so you can probably imagine how close he came. Even the person who promised him the position had reason to believe it was inevitable at that point.

Ice was unique, and yet he fit into a type of noble, Shroomery troublemaker that doesn’t seem to have the longest shelf life. He fit an archetype. It seems I can be drawn to those personalities like a moth. Many of us can be. Their losses hit hardest. And yet, by now, I almost expect them. There’s a type.

Add Ice to the long list of charismatic, just, fun, troublemaking people I have known here, talked to, bonded with, and lost. Almost as if the answers they always knew they’d never learn, just stopped being worth pursuing.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25910692 -

Quote:
Ice also pushed me away, but he apparently did that with everybody


He told me to fuck off a couple of times...but would always send me an email a few days later. He even apologized to me once...almost...lol. I just took it all with a grain of salt. He was more a brother to me than my biological ones who only ever took and never gave.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25910704 -

Slightly off topic. If you took Castaneda literally...you were fucking up. The most valuable work was Journey to Ixtlan...which didn't rely on the supernatural too much, but was a parable for some workable philosophy he obviously gleaned elsewhere, but presented beautifully. I read his stuff when I was 14...it led into all my psychedelic journeys and sense of aesthetics...through inspiration. I never cared if it was true...knew it really wasn't from the start, but it led me to many fine things...including living now in a little house somewhat isolated at the exact nexus of the Sonoran and Chihuahua deserts. I have traveled the same physical paths through Arizona and Mexico as Castaneda and he led me here. His writing developed a love of philosophy and a certain minimalist aesthetic in me. Honestly, Ice was invested in true or false and because of that never truly enjoyed Castaneda's works in my opinion. He either had to believe it or not..so would go from love to hate. In the end he thought it was a worthless betrayal for being untrue. I wish Christians could see much of the Bible as I see Castaneda.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #25910809 -

Here is a classic mini thread featuring Ice, Hue, Swam and others:

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/7166669/fpart/all


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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #25910864 -

I was meditating and more unconscious than usually and noticed that I had it of lower quality than usually
obviously I didn't have it of lower quality than non-existence

in 2013 when I hurt myself it was also obvious to me that I had it of lower quality because consciousness is defined by behavior and it was obvious to me that I would not get it of higher quality by going into the blackness

besides suicide is incredibly negative for the surroundings


--------------------
Make love not war
And art
Save the planet
Fix the earth

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Ferdinando] * 1
    #25910884 -

The surroundings quickly become irrelevant to the star of the suicide. Consider the negativity to be a parting gift to the survivors.

I have an intimate relationship with suicide, and it very much could claim me still one day, although that seems less and less likely now. Life is a shitshow, and that demoralizing knowledge can take anyone who decides to fully grasp it, as it is not an understanding that offers hope, which is fuel for life. Ice was a lot of great things. Hopeful is not among the first words I would think of to describe him.

I’m transgender. We kill ourselves at roughly the rate of lemmings. You get keen to the patterns.

At this point, I’m like, “Whelp! Lucky bastard got to do it on his terms!”

It can be terrible for the survivors, but I imagine there are far, far worse ways to go.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Rose] * 1
    #25910974 -

Quote:
At this point, I’m like, “Whelp! Lucky bastard got to do it on his terms!”



This kind of comment, in this circumstance, is too common, in fairness, which although off-the-cuff, needs a bit of consideration.

It's not about final 'terms'. 

It's about long term suffering (which was arguably, quite possibly not his terms) which prompted an ultimate decision.

Edited by Duncan Rowhl (04/02/19 08:53 AM)

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Duncan Rowhl] * 1
    #25911474 -

Since I am unwilling to speculate on his suffering, which I do not know well enough to speak of, I decided instead to frame my reaction, which I do know well enough to speak of, since I experienced it firsthand.

I’ve lost more friends to suicide than most, and because of that, my views have changed a good amount.

I used to view it as a terrible act, now I see it as a defiant one.

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Rose]
    #25911501 -

It sounds like he spread hatred and bad feeling a lot. Why would you miss him?

What if he was agreaaively hateful to someone, who was continuingly kind, and then they lost their family?

You can pretend there's a disconnect between online life and offline, but they are connected.

Online bullying leads to real world destruction.

Praising and endorsing someone who was relentlessly hurtful is destructive.


--------------------


I didn't draw this.

"Hope your day is as wonderful, loving, and kind as you are."
:heart:

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: life is good] * 2
    #25911535 -

Looking at your registration date, and realizing your entire post is based on assumption, you should probably read the room before you talk too much about our dead friend.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Rose]
    #25911542 -

Eh?

I've seen enough of hate.


--------------------


I didn't draw this.

"Hope your day is as wonderful, loving, and kind as you are."
:heart:

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: life is good]
    #25911550 -

Was he a nice person?

Or did he try to make people feel as horrible about themselves as conceivbaly possible?


--------------------


I didn't draw this.

"Hope your day is as wonderful, loving, and kind as you are."
:heart:

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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