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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Kickle] * 1
    #25906068 -

Hahahahahaha man every picture we have of Icey his shirts off.

I'll post mine when I get off work, pretty funny.
I always wanted to make a surprise visit myself.
If you shroomerites are ever in Galveston, hmu :smile:


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zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #25906979 -

I know but I thought he would always be there to tell me how stupid I am and still accept me.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #25906985 -

Stupid? Hardly. And I accept you in spite of your intelligence.



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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: hTx] * 1
    #25906987 -

Icelander's eulogy 4 years before the fact.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20748821/fpart/1/vc/1


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (03/31/19 11:09 AM)

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Kickle]
    #25907112 -

Kickle said:
He always told me that I likely fair so well mentally due to my partner. That picture made me sad when I look at it because I see a sense of relief and even perhaps release that I didn't really see in person.  A wholeness.

A great photo but sad IMO.


Last he spoke to her to me was that he could see her house from his, but they hadn't spoken in years. He sent the pic when we we in more regular communication many years back.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25907218 -

He told me 6 months back that they are still friends and talk occasionally. John didn't let someone too close...and she got as close as anyone could. Him dropping her was mostly his loss. Finding a solid person to be friends with isn't easy.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Huehuecoyotl] * 3
    #25907313 -

I find it sad because it showcased what was likely Johns biggest pain point. This is going to be all my opinion, but it seemed to me that Johns biggest drawback in life was that due to his early childhood and perhaps some due to death anxiety, he was unable to let go of certain defenses.

If the one's closest to you hurt you, then what is the surest way to keep that from happening again? Don't allow yourself to get too close. Limit the level of intimacy by controlling the level. I think John intentionally reached out with a level of intimacy that he was comfortable with. Controlled outreach seems to be what drew him to the Shroomery and other online communities. I remember him saying over the years that he liked this because he could reach out and drop us whenever he wanted. That's a control thing, no?

The ability to keep us all at a comfortable arms reach. To bring us close when he wanted but as soon as it triggered threat level red, move us away. And I do find it sad that he seemed to have found someone he really deeply connected with, cared for, and could have had something quite amazing with but he was unable to let it be out of his control. Sad also because Ice seemed to really want to believe in unconditional love but kept finding reasons not to believe.

But I may be off base.


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Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Kickle]
    #25907441 -

You may agree that participants in philosophical debates may have to sacrifice their sacred cows.

#1 Sacred cow sacrifice: speaking ill of the dead. I've got a dog that is all bark and no bite. To me Icelander's whole demeanor reeked of bluff and cowardice, from his intimidating disposition and choice of avatar.

#2 Sacred cow sacrifice: I believe many people choose to say that they were sexually abused to gain support from a society that makes a habit of villanizing "inappropriate behavior", and given Icelander's character I wouldn't be surprised if he were taking advantage of that.

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25907604 -

RIP Icelander.  We had some great conversations and plenty of intellectually stimulating debate, even if you remained a staunch dogmatist on the topic of death anxiety.  I guess you finally overcame it.  :mushroom2:

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

fireworks_god said:
In his message he called me a full on junkie. :grin: Said life is very good when you're on the main line, and cited Schopenhauer...


Hey, man.  I got that identical message on the 23rd but the way it was phrased made me think he was calling himself a full on junkie.  No Schopenhauer quote though, alas.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

Edited by deCypher (03/31/19 11:36 AM)

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: deCypher]
    #25907841 -

deCypher said:
RIP Icelander.  We had some great conversations and plenty of intellectually stimulating debate, even if you remained a staunch dogmatist on the topic of death anxiety.  I guess you finally overcame it.  :mushroom2:



How is it going with you? When I read that Icelander had passed away, I remember talking with you and him, 10 years ago or so...

You were thinking about using small amounts of opiates then, to improve your life, as far as I remember. And you were convinced that you wouldn't become addicted.

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Zanthius]
    #25907897 -

I'm still arguing with him, so no R.I.P for me!


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #25907978 -

Zanthius said:
How is it going with you? When I read that Icelander had passed away, I remember talking with you and him, 10 years ago or so...

You were thinking about using small amounts of opiates then, to improve your life, as far as I remember. And you were convinced that you wouldn't become addicted.


Heh, yeah, I was convinced I was too smart to get hooked.
Pride goeth before the fall, so they say, and I definitely descended into the maelstrom of (functional) addiction.  Finally came out the other side, though... it's been years now since I've touched anything other than the infrequent psychedelic (including alcohol and nicotine) and I'm doing fantastic.  Wouldn't trade the experiences I've had for anything but it sure was a ride at times.

Good to see you and the other PSP old-timers around still kicking it.  :smile2:


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Kickle] * 3
    #25908012 -

I do not want to speak ill of the dead, neither do I want to publish private information about someone even post mortem. That is not my intention here. As always, it is my way of trying to understand. However, one of the unfortunate behaviors in Icelander's personality was his inability to keep a confidence, and to announce a confidence publicly. He did this to me twice on these forums, sharing something personal that I had disclosed to him on phone conversations. Exactly what his motives might have been for doing that is speculative, but based on a profoundly personal disclosure of his own, I suspected some Borderline Personality dynamics (theoretically caused by emotional or physical abandonment by caregivers early in life). CosmicJoke, who had a degree in psychology, sometimes discussed this with me because of the difficulties we both had in our interactions with Ice. CosmicJoke also endeavored to connect with the cantankerous Ice or else he and JSB would never have reached out to him in person.

In BPD there develops a rage which persists throughout one's life. Any disagreement with someone with BPD is a 'departure' from agreement and that departure is processed as an abandonment from the relationship. Abandonment fear, a primal, biologically-based instinct, becomes exaggerated to a pathological degree. It interferes with deep relationships later for fear of their loss, even to the extent of sabotaging the relationship. (I was married to a BPD woman for 13 years who demonstrated this very dynamic. Interestingly, that native Miamian now resides in rural Oregon). In an e-mail following our first phone contact, Ice said that he more than once had to "bite my tongue" to keep from starting an argument with me. I called him at 8:30 PM his time, but he had already gone to bed. He decided to get up for my call thinking it might be interesting. I think he was pathologically bored with existence, and if he was experiencing BPD, he would've been a 'black hole,' impossible to fill or fulfill, chronically dissatisfied with life. Additionally, the abuse he suffered as a child would have compounded the earlier rage due to emotional abandonment . Psychoanalytically speaking, such rage can be turned into oral aggression, biting sarcasm, barbed comments, tongue lashings, venomous vernacular. This could explain his acerbic nature.

My own continued contact with Ice was certainly not because of his cynicism and sarcasm, but in spite of it. I understood that he had been hurt and consequently had sustained a characteristic type of injury. But he was very intelligent and perceptive even if his bent was to deride and dismiss most things as 'woo-woo.' I continued to attempt a deeper relationship with him which I suppose is why he left me with a brief acknowledgment on the day he died. More recently he did begin to read up on some of the Gnostic ideas that reflected their disenchantment with the monstrous nature of Reality. He seemed to want to find ancient Western justification for his own perception of existence, just as I and others had in Gnostic myth and philosophy. Between 01/10/18 and 01/23/18 there are 31 PMs from Icelander to me, and there are 31 corresponding replies in my sent folder.

Regarding the picture I posted of Ice, JSB, and CosmicJoke, in January 2018 Ice responded with this. I bolded the part where he affirmed a spiritual faith, lest anyone at these forums has concluded that The Icelander left this world as a Nihilist:

"Thanks so much Markos. That's a pretty happy pic. We had a good time. That makes about 6 that have visited over the years. One of them I just ran into at our Natural Foods co-op. I just started talking to this guy and we somehow
talked about the shroomery and realized we posted in the same forums. That was over 10 years ago. I was never planning on coming back here this time. I have no idea how long I'll stay. I'm trying to figure a few things out before I croak. I'm fairly sick now and dealing with plenty of pain and lots of prescribed opiates. It's a real drag and at some point I have plans to check myself out when don't want to take it anymore. But I want to be ready for death because I no longer believe that's the end. I don't want to have to come back to any place like this. Too much unhappiness in people's eyes.

Thanks again for sharing that pic. I'm glad to have it."

Nobody is home anymore, but I think the Light is still on. In the end, Icelander and I found ourselves on the same page.  :heart: :bow: :heart:

:peace:
MtG


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #25908108 -

Icelander was cynical but I think such viewpoints are in the cards for intelligent people. Getting past such negative thoughts is a trick not many people seem to master. He never came across as bursting with enthusiasm for life, but it's nice to know those who spent time with him in person found him enjoyable for the most part.

I remember him talking about putting out bird feeders and the regretting it because they attracted cats who would kill the birds. This stuck with me because it seemed to be an analogy for much of life. Making things work without strife in ones life is a tall order.


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rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Rahz]
    #25908235 -

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/6809194


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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #25908251 -

Icelander said:
Without my death anxiety I'm just a :monkeydance: in the trees.


https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12666889

One can only hope he's up there now howling at the rest of the primates.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Rahz] * 1
    #25908339 -

I do not know if a strife-free life was a goal of Icelander. I frankly do not know what motivated him to live except the dogs he acquired so he would have companions who depended on him. In the end however, he abandoned his dogs. Why he did not wait until the last one had died is beyond my understanding. It is not as though the right moment arose and he acted against himself spontaneously. Apparently he made plans for his dogs in advance. Perhaps he left their caretaker an endowment. Ice was quick to point out that he had inherited over a million dollars from his late father. I would've thought that even at his conservative rate of consumption that he might have availed himself of the enjoyment of that money, but he was too anhedonic (unless he spent it recklessly on ephemerals like drugs). :shrug:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: deCypher] * 2
    #25908374 -

deCypher said:
I'm doing fantastic.


Let me be the first to say that's really good to hear bro. And welcome back old timer.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: Kickle]
    #25908533 -

sure it could be timing and nothing but a perception of influences that are beyond me, and thus i am looking for mere patterning, in the light of such events- but to say that is so would be to belay a trend that doesn't exist, as my days have been nothing but regular, but yet, they've had the oddest tinge of surreality (again, which can totally be on no account of Icelander passing) but i choose to submit that, given this unusual heavy snowfall, after the days on end burst of heat, directly concurrent, that this weighed on my mind, as things tend to, and the world was a-shudder, at least partially, with this passing of a soul through the ether.

my submission is it's as if i felt Icelander's quiddity of niceness [nicety- necessity] pass through those days, and it was simultaneously hot & cold. a confusion. a misery and conceit, but also an attempt at surveying the land. a calculated struggle and a manifest conception of suffering and willingness to proceed...until there wasn't.

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Re: Icelander Left Us Yesterday [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25909096 -

is this tangentially about climate change for you?


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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