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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: koods] * 1
    #25902336 -

koods said:
Quote:
So if you broke your leg, and then I hammered your broken leg with a baseball bat, you wouldn't say your new condition is my fault?


Your analogy game is weak.

If your leg breaks due to your own actions, then you are the person responsible for your injury. If someone compounds those injuries, that doesn’t mean you are absolved of the original damage.


Who said Maduro is absolved of any damage he's done?


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25902354 -

Enlil said:
There's nothing to argue yet.  You have not established how any of it is our fault.  You haven't made any nexus between sanctions and the problems in Venezuela in May of 2018.  You haven't even begun to show how the statement is false.  You just keep asking questions.  I've answered questions.  Now make your case or admit that you can't.


You want me to prove that sanctions hurt Venezuela?

You've said on several occasions that Socialism will never succeed because the US won't let it, and now you're pretending that what we're doing to Venezuela isn't our fault.  That's what I call arguing in bad faith.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25902404 -

I guess I accept your surrender:shrug:


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25902458 -

More lawyer games I see.

You said "You have not established how any of it is our fault."

I asked if "you want me to prove that sanctions hurt Venezuela?"

Instead of answering, you're saying I'm surrendering?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25902459 -

Why don't you lay out the procedure and format you're looking for so it doesn't have to be a guessing game?

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25902460 -

:whathesaid:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25902483 -

Simply explain,  using cited facts, how sanctions created the problems in Venezuela that were the subject of the may episode of last week tonight.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25902668 -

are you making a distinction between "created" in the sense of being the initial impetus for a condition and "created" in the sense of exacerbating an existing condition with the intent of bringing about a more severe or extreme one?

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25902716 -

The statement was, "what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault."  To prove that false, Falcon has to establish:

1. What was "happening" that the statement referred to.
2. How that thing was brought upon by the U.S.
3. How the U.S. is at fault for whatever steps it took that brought on that thing.

For instance.  If he says sanctions caused the thing, he needs to show how sanctions caused it and show how the sanctions were unjustified.  If the sanctions were justified, it's not our fault any more than it's the police's fault when a bank robber goes to jail.

My review of the episode left me with the impression that he was referring to food shortages and hyperinflation.  Falcon might disagree, however.  I just don't see how the U.S. is at fault for that.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25903183 -

Enlil said:
If he says sanctions caused the thing, he needs to show how sanctions caused it and show how the sanctions were unjustified.  If the sanctions were justified, it's not our fault any more than it's the police's fault when a bank robber goes to jail.


Who gets to decide if imposing sanctions to oust a foreign country's president is justified?  You, or the Venezuelan people?  Because it's clear what the majority of Venezuelan people think about US intervention.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25903206 -

The oil sanctions are two months old. The rest of the sanctions were on individuals.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25903353 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Enlil said:
If he says sanctions caused the thing, he needs to show how sanctions caused it and show how the sanctions were unjustified.  If the sanctions were justified, it's not our fault any more than it's the police's fault when a bank robber goes to jail.


Who gets to decide if imposing sanctions to oust a foreign country's president is justified?  You, or the Venezuelan people?  Because it's clear what the majority of Venezuelan people think about US intervention.


I guess we'll cross that bridge if we come to it.  So far, you haven't even established that sanctions have caused the food shortages or hyperinflation.

It seems to me that the question of "fault" would be based on a reasonable interpretation.  In other words, we don't need to determine with absolute certainty whether or not it was or wasn't our fault.  We just have to determine whether a reasonable interpretation of the facts could lead a person to believe that it was not our fault.  If it could, it's not a lie. 


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: koods]
    #25903606 -

koods said:
The oil sanctions are two months old. The rest of the sanctions were on individuals.


Every article on the original sanctions says you're make believing again:

U.S. imposes tough economic sanctions on Venezuela
Aug. 25, 2017, 9:03 a.m.
By Associated Press
Quote:
The Trump administration on Friday slapped sweeping financial sanctions on Venezuela, barring banks from any new financial deals with the government or state-run oil giant PDVSA.



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25903623 -

Are you planning on showing how sanctions caused food shortages and hyperinflation?


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25903632 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
koods said:
The oil sanctions are two months old. The rest of the sanctions were on individuals.


Every article on the original sanctions says you're make believing again:

U.S. imposes tough economic sanctions on Venezuela
Aug. 25, 2017, 9:03 a.m.
By Associated Press
Quote:
The Trump administration on Friday slapped sweeping financial sanctions on Venezuela, barring banks from any new financial deals with the government or state-run oil giant PDVSA.



Yeah ok. So 18 month old sanctions have caused food shortages that started 4 years ago. Makes total sense. Interesting how you think a economically independent socialist paradise crumbles without access to the epitome of capitalism: US banks. 🤪


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: koods] * 1
    #25903641 -

koods said:
Interesting how you think a economically independent socialist paradise crumbles without access to the epitome of capitalism: US banks. 🤪


QFT


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25903860 -

When I told you there's no proof of Russian Government intervention, you insisted proof only needs to be the smallest amount of evidence, like the FBIs' belief Russia did it based on past Russian behavior (whatever that means).

Now, when I say the sanctions exacerbated the situation in Venezuela and provide an article backing that up, you not only dismiss it, but you say it doesn't count if a reasonable person believes the sanctions were justified.  :wtf:

You claim victory if you have 1% confidence, and you claim victory if an opponent doesn't have 99% confidence.

You seem to care more about winning the argument than being right.



I'll just say this for those actually wondering if RT is more honest than John Oliver:

1.  I've asked the entire Political forum at least three times now to provide an example of fake news from RT.  The only example anyone has come up so far was a 10 year old video raising questions about 9-11, which they've taken down long ago (and now they actually make fun of people who question the official story).
2.  If you watch The Ecstatic's video, you'll see 45 minutes of John Oliver's dishonesty.  I learned a lot about the Venezuelan crisis from that video, and some fact checking showed the video to be true.  If anyone finds something wrong in that video, let me know.  I'm a lot more interested in knowing the truth than winning an argument.



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (03/29/19 01:39 PM)

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25904272 -

Most of us don’t watch RT

Have you ever considered the fact that you watch RT might explain why you have such a distorted view of reality when it comes to Russia and Venezuela?

Edited by koods (03/29/19 03:52 PM)

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: koods]
    #25905025 -

You should watch The Ecstatic's video.  You might learn something about Venezuela in addition to the distortions the mainstream media feeds you.  I found it very a very good video just for educational purposes.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #25905114 -

I found it to be propaganda produced by someone who clearly has an agenda to defend Chavez and Maduro and their ideology against claims of failure. The failure of the socialist enterprise in Venezuela is a devastating development if you are a true believer in the cause. This bias is just overwhelmingly evident in that video.

He rattles off statistics about poverty, healthcare, homelessness and literacy and how it’s all improved. He says Chavez is beloved. He says millions of homes have been built despite the economic crisis. These things may all be true. I doubt it. But that leads to the question, how does a country that has seen a near compete economic collapse afford that kind of spending? These social programs are part of the unsustainably that has led to the current situation.

The reporting in mainstream media is very negative about the situation. Is that because there is an agenda or because the facts in the ground are dire? Media organizations have biases, but they don’t have the same biases, yet almost every major news gathering organization reports the same thing about Venezuela: it’s a failed state. Across the political spectrum, the narrative from professional journalists and outlets is in stark disagreement with what some of the alternative media - such as empire files - are saying. These places have biases as well, and from what I can see their bias is undeniably agenda driven. They have a niche audience of anti-interventionists and anti-capitalists. They are not journalists. They are activists.

Sometimes the mainstream media gets it wrong. (The aide bus wasn’t burned by maduro troops, but we also know this because of the New York Times) But there doesn’t appear to be deliberate attempts to mislead the public.

On the other hand, there is endless twisting of truth and outright lying coming from those who want to defend the socialist revolution. The regime blames all its problems on foreign sabotage. They lied about the content of Rubio tweet to make it sound like he knew ahead of time that the power was going to fail.

Fal posted a Wikileaks document from the state department that seemed to be unconcerned with the current human suffering taking place. He never mentioned the document was 45 years old.

Fal posted a video by a guy who went to Venezuela to report that grocery stores were well stocked and the rumors of shortages were immaculate. It was only mentioned in passing in the video, and not by fal, that the store didn’t accept Venezuelan currency and you had to have American cash or a credit card to buy anything. Nearly the entire population would have no ability to shop there.

It comes down to this. The mainstream media is motivated by maintaining credibility. Reporters lose jobs when they make up stories or lie. On the other hand, the ideological true believers have every reason to discredit anyone whose makes the Chavez revolution look like a failure. In the end it’s just clear to me that one side is driven by an agenda and the other isn’t.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Political Discussion
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