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Some rye prep test results. with photos! * 1
    #25707434 -

I had three things about Rye Prep for Cubes that I wanted to answer with some tests:

1) What water content is best.

2) Does cooking grains before PC'ing do anything different than Just Pc'ing the grains with the proper water?

3) Does drying grains matter?





A background: I wanted to use Myco Bags and not own a Flow Hood because I'm super DL. With this plan, I have to seal my bags quickly, and inject with inoculate. I use LI. It really isn't enough to noc up bags, so I became obsessed with prepping Rye berries perfectly, so my LI could colonize a gallon bag quickly.

My answers so far:

1) Water content (defined by weight of water vs. dry grains, taking into account there is water in dry grains)  48% is the jam. 46% is very dry. 50% gets real sweaty at the end of colonization. I am suspicious some people do not account for the 10% water in dry grains, in which case, their number is more like 42% perfect. I haven't shown my tests here.... as they were infuriating to do because everyone said 42% for bags.... but I was mislead. (also, it can be much drier if you use grain to grain)

2) Yes, cooking grains before PC'ing is different than letting the grains cook in the PC. I'm not exactly sure why, but it is. See the second photo. Same amount of water in that bag. Very different results. I often use my mouth to test.... does it taste like food yet? or is it stiff and very "al dente" Cubes want it to be cooked a lot before getting PC'd.

3) Drying grains lowers the water content. In my tests, I can lower grains 2-4% in 30 minutes. maybe 5% in 2 hours. In my experience, 48% grains loaded in the bags dry or wet are identical in the end. The PC evens all the water.

So the big take away I've learned about very good rye prep (which I need, but others don't because grain to grain is so forgiving) IS:

Cook the rye at 180 degrees or higher for as long as possible, yet keep it around 48% water content. This is why we dry our cooked grains.... so we can boil them that much longer... maybe to 51%, then back them down to 48%, you might get the grains to boil 4 minutes longer that way. P.S. Avoid water temps below 180 degrees f. That is where I got into so much trouble in the past.... It used to take me 40 minutes to bring my grains to a boil, they were only adding water content, not cooking the grains. Thats exactly what you don't want.

My current method (because I hate drying grains): Heat dry rye in oven for 2 hrs til its 200 degrees throughout. Add boiling water for 25 minutes. drain. weigh to confirm its at 48% add water or dry to get it there. Load wet (or dry if needed) I heat the grains because if I don't the added boiling water immediately would drop so low it wouldn't cook the rye.


I will make a Tek soon. But maybe peeps can comment here first before I do.

Cheers. T

Edited by tedoro (12/28/18 10:29 AM)

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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: tedoro]
    #25707588 -

how are you determining %?
i soak for 12-20 hours then short boil.  use the t.p. test for dryness then pc 90 mins.

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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: bloozmahn]
    #25707798 -

I'm not sure I understand the point of the oven baking. The tired and tested method of soak, boil, dry, load works pretty much perfectly.

I tired cooking the grains in the PC once and it was a disaster, so I'd steer away from that method personally.


--------------------
"How it should & shouldn't look "      "Recognizing contamination"      "Rye Berry Prep"      "Franks G2G"      "Humidity Chamber"      "Agar Recipes"

"How to dial in your monotubs like a Boss"      "Pastywhyte's Easy Agar Tek"      "Elementary [Damion5050]Coir Tek"        "SGFC"      "SAB Tek"      "Easy AF Shoeboxes"


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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: bloozmahn]
    #25707821 -

Again, if people are grain to grain colonizing... there is lots of forgiveness, but if you are using LC or tossing a wedge in there or using LI like me, then more care is needed. Also.... jars are sooooo forgiving because they are smaller.

So, Soaking for 12, then a quick boil and a toilet paper test, may very well get a grain pretty close to great.

My thoughts on that....

1) If you can keep the "minutes to boil" time down to 12 minutes, and boil for a full 10, and dry for a while.... you might arrive at 48% water content. That method has grown very fast mycelia for me. The Toilet paper test does nothing, as wet or dry, the grains even out within the PC.

2) There are two main variables here.... how long to boil and how much water was evaporated that makes it difficult to arrive at the sweet spot without weighing (which is very simple)

weighing to get the percentage:

What percentage of the contents of the bag is water.... considering 10% of the dry rye is water.

weigh the dry berries, consider 90% of that weight to be the rye.
weigh the bag at the end, consider that to be the total.

divide these two above, and that number hopefully looks something like .52 if you are lucky. thats 52% rye content, or 48% water content



Edited by tedoro (12/28/18 02:17 PM)

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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: Shroomspective]
    #25707839 -

I heat the grains because the grains are so massive, (I use 28 ounces of dry berries a bag) that at room temp, they cool my boiling water immediately. If I heat them, the grains start to cook right away. Its a pretty cool method I've stumbled upon. What I didn't mention, is that I've been adding the perfect amount of boiling water, such that when the rye absorbs the boiling water, the  rye begins to rise toward the surface of the water. Right when it reaches the surface, its at 48% because I apparently have no life and did all the math. You pull the bag and drain it right then. I've never been off more than a percentage point.


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Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC

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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: tedoro]
    #25707886 -

So you don't soak the grain before you cook it? And then go straight into the boil once its hot? There are plenty of no soak teks around, but I've always preferred a 24 hour soak and then a 10 minute boil, but I take your point about the volume of grain in the bags, I start with around 56 ounces of dry grain usually, but if you're doing vats of it then it makes sense


--------------------
"How it should & shouldn't look "      "Recognizing contamination"      "Rye Berry Prep"      "Franks G2G"      "Humidity Chamber"      "Agar Recipes"

"How to dial in your monotubs like a Boss"      "Pastywhyte's Easy Agar Tek"      "Elementary [Damion5050]Coir Tek"        "SGFC"      "SAB Tek"      "Easy AF Shoeboxes"


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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: Shroomspective]
    #25707911 -

I have yet to have the no soak come and bite me with contams... so yes, no soak. But what I wished someone had told me was its not just how long you boil, its also how long til you get to boil. thats the difference between 48% water content and 58% water content, same boiling time. Its a major flaw in the teks. No one talks about the power of the stove.


--------------------
--------------------
Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC

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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: tedoro]
    #25707992 -

I do like the fact that a 24hr soak helps to germinate some of the hidden endospores that are usually in the grains..As for the length, I use the visual and taste test, so the boil time doesn't need to be exactly specified as you know when it's ready


--------------------
"How it should & shouldn't look "      "Recognizing contamination"      "Rye Berry Prep"      "Franks G2G"      "Humidity Chamber"      "Agar Recipes"

"How to dial in your monotubs like a Boss"      "Pastywhyte's Easy Agar Tek"      "Elementary [Damion5050]Coir Tek"        "SGFC"      "SAB Tek"      "Easy AF Shoeboxes"


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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: Shroomspective]
    #25708013 -

Shroomspective said:
I do like the fact that a 24hr soak helps to germinate some of the hidden endospores that are usually in the grains..As for the length, I use the visual and taste test, so the boil time doesn't need to be exactly specified as you know when it's ready


This is incorrect


--------------------
If I ever give out misinformation please inform me so I can have the correct information. :cheers:

Tmethyl said:
Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked a monotub that wasn't pinning fast enough. The force of the kick rearranged the genetics of the mushrooms, we now call them Penis Envy.

Caps McGee said:
:thumbsup:
Fun part is figuring out what works best for you

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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: van hatton]
    #25708030 -

It's backed by some solid science :smile: And if you soak your grains, you'll see they start to ferment after 12-15 hours showing bacteria has germinated

Essentially activating Endospores prior to sterilisation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endospore#Formation_and_destruction
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyndallization

"While significantly resistant to heat and radiation, endospores can be destroyed by burning or by autoclaving at a temperature exceeding the boiling point of water, 100 ยฐC.

Endospores are able to survive at 100 ยฐC for hours, although the longer the number of hours the fewer that will survive. An indirect way to destroy them is to place them in an environment that reactivates them to their vegetative state. They will germinate within a day or two with the right environmental conditions, and then the vegetative cells, not as hardy as endospores, can be straightforwardly destroyed. This indirect method is called Tyndallization. It was the usual method for a while in the late 19th century before the introduction of inexpensive autoclaves. Prolonged exposure to ionising radiation, such as x-rays and gamma rays, will also kill most endospores"


--------------------
"How it should & shouldn't look "      "Recognizing contamination"      "Rye Berry Prep"      "Franks G2G"      "Humidity Chamber"      "Agar Recipes"

"How to dial in your monotubs like a Boss"      "Pastywhyte's Easy Agar Tek"      "Elementary [Damion5050]Coir Tek"        "SGFC"      "SAB Tek"      "Easy AF Shoeboxes"


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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: Shroomspective] * 1
    #25708043 -

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/21604725

Here go.

You also have to think we don't have super nice autoclaves and a decent way to measure these things (sterilization tape but meh) we have 80 dollar pressure cookers.

Plus you have to examine the mass that your attempting to sterilize. 5lb vs a jar gonna need more time to hit those temps if we're even hitting those temps.

We generally prep our grains to avoid those environment situations that cause endospores to germinate. Ie wet grains.

If we truely sterilized our grain then we could have them wet as fuck.


--------------------
If I ever give out misinformation please inform me so I can have the correct information. :cheers:

Tmethyl said:
Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked a monotub that wasn't pinning fast enough. The force of the kick rearranged the genetics of the mushrooms, we now call them Penis Envy.

Caps McGee said:
:thumbsup:
Fun part is figuring out what works best for you

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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: van hatton]
    #25708051 -

I've read that thread before, and I realise Bod makes good points, but empirically I've always found better results after longer soaks compared to less soaks..I use what I've found to work best from trial and error at the end of the day, but the science in the publications is fairly convincing

There's another good paper here

http://jfoodprotection.org/doi/pdf/10.4315/0022-2747-33.10.435


--------------------
"How it should & shouldn't look "      "Recognizing contamination"      "Rye Berry Prep"      "Franks G2G"      "Humidity Chamber"      "Agar Recipes"

"How to dial in your monotubs like a Boss"      "Pastywhyte's Easy Agar Tek"      "Elementary [Damion5050]Coir Tek"        "SGFC"      "SAB Tek"      "Easy AF Shoeboxes"


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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: Shroomspective]
    #25708062 -

You can boil for 5 minutes and get full hydration. Why waste all that time?


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๐Ÿ…ƒ ๐Ÿ„ด ๐Ÿ„ฐ ๐Ÿ„ผ    ๐Ÿ„ฒ ๐Ÿ„ป ๐Ÿ„ธ ๐Ÿ„ฝ ๐Ÿ„ถ ๐Ÿ…† ๐Ÿ… ๐Ÿ„ฐ ๐Ÿ„ฟ

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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: van hatton]
    #25708204 -

i left a jar sit after pressure cooking for 3 weeks, it's still free of contamination and it's fellow jars have all gone on to produce good harvests. good enough for me.

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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: JHOVA]
    #25708211 -

This thread is going after not just okay grain prep, but very good grain prep.

Take my first photo. Its boiled for 6 minutes and ended up undercooked and less desirable to my feeble LI. The bag next to it was overcooked to 53% and dried back for 2 hours with fans. The mycelia loves it.

I have 4 bags of each of these, all look the same.

I'm forced to learn this, but I'll keep passing on what I'm learning ~


--------------------
--------------------
Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC

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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: bloozmahn]
    #25708217 -

I'm confused by the 2nd picture. Did you use the same amount of dry grain for both bags? If so, why such a drastic difference in volume?


--------------------
โ€œUntil they became conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious.โ€
โ€• George Orwell, 1984

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."
โ€• Albert Einstein

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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: Fungus Mountain]
    #25708222 -

seems like more than 1 variable between the bags. i like the idea though.

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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: bloozmahn]
    #25708245 -

There is a variable, but its unimportant. I presealed a .5 large bag for the picture on the right, and tyvek acordian fold a medium bag on the left. They have exactly the same amount of grain. If I did it again the exact same result would happen.


--------------------
--------------------
Deep pour soft agar plates-->bags of WBS-->Low Profile Monos
Clean spawn thread | Put a thermometer on your PC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: tedoro]
    #25708966 -

Damnit I knew I forgot to read something my drunk ass.

If your assuming any varible is unimportant you'll soon learn otherwise.. probably.


--------------------
If I ever give out misinformation please inform me so I can have the correct information. :cheers:

Tmethyl said:
Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked a monotub that wasn't pinning fast enough. The force of the kick rearranged the genetics of the mushrooms, we now call them Penis Envy.

Caps McGee said:
:thumbsup:
Fun part is figuring out what works best for you

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Re: Some rye prep test results. with photos! [Re: van hatton]
    #25709737 -

Okay back to sane van.

It seems those links you posted are for canning things in liquid unless I missed something.

Also this Tyndallization essentially consists of heating the substance to boiling point (or just a little below boiling point) and holding it there for 15 minutes, three days in succession. After each heating, the resting period will allow spores that have survived to germinate into bacterial cells; these cells will be killed by the next day's heating. During the resting periods the substance being sterilized is kept in a moist environment at a warm room temperature, conducive to germination of the spores. When the environment is favourable for bacteria, it is conducive to the germination of cells from spores, and spores do not form from cells in this environment (see bacterial spores).

The Tyndallization process is usually effective in practice. But it is not considered totally reliableโ€”some spores may survive and later germinate and multiply. It is not often used today, but is used for sterilizing some things that cannot withstand pressurized heating, such as plant seeds.[2][3]

Anit nobody got time for that :lol:

Also the PDF u posted is showing that germination rates will be more favorable at 100ยฐc for x time.

You also have to think if my goal is to kill bacteria why am I soaking to give them a favorable advantage to rapidly grow and have more bacteria per ml ( or whatever) than if I boiled.

I also will say do what works for you. I just enjoy discussion


--------------------
If I ever give out misinformation please inform me so I can have the correct information. :cheers:

Tmethyl said:
Chuck Norris once roundhouse kicked a monotub that wasn't pinning fast enough. The force of the kick rearranged the genetics of the mushrooms, we now call them Penis Envy.

Caps McGee said:
:thumbsup:
Fun part is figuring out what works best for you

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