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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25644630 -

I don't see it as a defeatest position (but I'm sure some do); for me, acknowledging the severity of the climate situation is a necessary dose of realism required to properly respond to it.

The spectre that many try not to see is a simple realisation — the world will not be ‘saved’. Global anarchist revolution is not going to happen. Global climate change is now unstoppable. We are not going to see the worldwide end to civilisation/capitalism/patriarchy/authority. It’s not going to happen any time soon. It’s unlikely to happen ever. The world will not be ‘saved’. Not by activists, not by mass movements, not by charities and not by an insurgent global proletariat. The world will not be ‘saved’. This realisation hurts people. They don’t want it to be true! But it probably is.

These realisations, this abandonment of illusions should not become disabling. Yet if one believes that it’s all or nothing, then there is a problem.

The hope of a Big Happy Ending, hurts people; sets the stage for the pain felt when they become disillusioned. Because, truly, who amongst us now really believes? How many have been burnt up by the effort needed to reconcile a fundamentally religious faith in the positive transformation of the world with the reality of life all around us? Yet to be disillusioned — with global revolution/with our capacity to stop climate change — does not alter my anarchist nature, or the love of nature I feel as an anarchist. There are many possibilities for liberty and wildness still.

What does it mean to be an anarchist, an environmentalist, when global revolution and world-wide social/eco sustainability are not the aim? What objectives, what plans, what lives, what adventures are there when the illusions are set aside and we walk into the world not disabled by disillusionment but unburdened by it?


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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25644659 -

Bigbadwooof said:
I looked at your example. It seems there are variables involved which are not fixed, such as the profit that an entrepreneur might make off of a product. Maybe they double their investment. That throws the numbers off.


No, it doesn't throw the numbers off.  I made up a random sale price.  Feel free to change the sale price to double or half, and you'll still end up with the amount of money in the system you started with.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25644709 -

ballsalsa said:
doesn't the loan contract count as an asset on the balance sheet for the bank anyway?


I think it only applies to deposits. The point of the law is so a bank doesn't run out cash if depositors want to withdraw their money.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25644720 -

ballsalsa said:
which is what the entities paid by the entrepreneur will do with the money.  when he makes some profit, he'll likely deposit that.


Ok. That's great. That's how the system is supposed to work.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: koods]
    #25644727 -

Why is everyone seemingly so interested in talking about loans in a thread on climate change?


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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25644756 -

Because it's an intellectually stimulating topic?  :shrug:

I just started a new thread on it so this thread doesn't get derailed.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #25644820 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Why is everyone seemingly so interested in talking about loans in a thread on climate change?


I think it stemmed from the original topic of capitalism reauiring infinite growth. Capitalism is fueled by the economy which is intimately tied to the function of money; in many ways our financial system itself could be viewed in this way as the primary driver of climate change, no?

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25645054 -

Quote:
I'm late to the thread but I mostly agree with this assessment. Since at least the 1970s, one recurring theme in environmentalism is that the apocalypse is always imminent but forever deferred. Every generation seems to have one last chance to save the planet. If such a time ever existed, it is long since past.


Aww, come on.  That makes it sound like it's all just some natural delusion of human beings or something.  We always think the end is near. 

There's always going to be a lot of people saying a lot of things, but we should tune that out and listen to science.

We did in the 1980's with the CFC/ozone layer scare, and look...the ozone layer is getting better! (Back in those days, the Ronald Reagan white house was saying at one point  something about how the ozone depletion crisis is a  natural development of the free market, which is holy and cannot do any wrong, so we shouldn't interfere in it's holy workings like they do in evil USSR and if you are concerned, you should wear sunglasses and a hat)

We can do it with this too.  Only problem is some lazy and entitled plutocrats would rather not.


--------------------
 

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

Edited by VroomerMcZoomers (11/28/18 02:13 PM)

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25645122 -

VroomerMcZoomers said:
We can do it with this too.  Only problem is some lazy and entitled plutocrats would rather not.


Do you think 'plutocrats' are lazy? Overpaid, certainly, but I don't think Elon Musk, for example, is lazy... Then again, you have Donald Trump.. But even he took a job answering phone calls at 3 AM :wink:


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25645140 -

Bigbadwooof said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Bigbadwooof said:
I'm banking on Elon. He's fuckin awesome!


Elon owes me $1,000 fucking dollars which I gave him as a deposit for one of his solar roofs back in July 2017.  Still waiting...


What kinda deal did you have set up?


I just went to his website in my link you quoted and deposited $1,000 there like it asked.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers] * 1
    #25645210 -

VroomerMcZoomers said:
we should tune that out and listen to science.


We can do it with this too. 


i agree, we should listen to science.  the best science right now says that if co2 emissions were reduced to zero, exactly right now, that the climate will continue to warm for at least 20 years and more like 40 years.

that is only speaking of global temps.  that speaks nothing to the acidification of the oceans, for instance, which is occurring right now.  because we know that zero co2 emissions is impossible, atmospheric co2 will continue to rise.  when oceans act as a carbon sink by absorbing co2, it reacts to form carbonic acid.  as the concentration of carbonic acid increases, the ph of seawater drops.  when sea water becomes more acidic it's not going to burn you if you went for a swim, but it will prevent shellfish from forming shells, killing them; not only is this already happening, but it is also causing reproductive issues with some fish.  as shellfish collapse and fish have more reproductive issues, the oceanic food chain collapses and the couple billion people that depend on sea food for their main form of protein...well you know.

we haven't even started talking about the possible reversal of the currents in the atlantic ocean that is a distinct possibility, or the thawing permafrost emitting untold amounts of methane (a potent greenhouse gas), or other feedback loops that can kick in.

there are so many layers to a warming climate that it's is almost impossible to consider them all, much less know them all.  while we've gained degrees of magnitude of knowledge about these processes in the last 20 years, there is still so much that we don't know and that is likely unknowable.

i'm not a defeatist by nature, usually, but it's hard to remain optimistic and have a "we can do it with this too" attitude...for me, at least.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: relic]
    #25645257 -

Quote:
Do you think 'plutocrats' are lazy? Overpaid, certainly,


I don't know that Elon Musk is funding a public relations empire with the purpose of convincing the population that fossil fuels are fine.


The Koch crime family is though.  They are too lazy to change their destructive business practices and feel entitled to it, and all the money it brings them.


--------------------
 

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25645297 -

That's not laziness.  That's greed.  There is no way to "change their destructive business practices" in such a way that they can keep making profit and not harm the planet.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: relic] * 1
    #25645308 -

Sums up my view nicely. The positive feedback has already begun; even if we stopped all climate change causing action today, these feedback cycles will continue.

For me, acknowledging this isn't a defeatist position, but a realist one.


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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25645336 -

VroomerMcZoomers said:
Quote:
I'm late to the thread but I mostly agree with this assessment. Since at least the 1970s, one recurring theme in environmentalism is that the apocalypse is always imminent but forever deferred. Every generation seems to have one last chance to save the planet. If such a time ever existed, it is long since past.


Aww, come on.  That makes it sound like it's all just some natural delusion of human beings or something.  We always think the end is near. 

There's always going to be a lot of people saying a lot of things, but we should tune that out and listen to science.

We did in the 1980's with the CFC/ozone layer scare, and look...the ozone layer is getting better! (Back in those days, the Ronald Reagan white house was saying at one point  something about how the ozone depletion crisis is a  natural development of the free market, which is holy and cannot do any wrong, so we shouldn't interfere in it's holy workings like they do in evil USSR and if you are concerned, you should wear sunglasses and a hat)

We can do it with this too.  Only problem is some lazy and entitled plutocrats would rather not.




--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #25645414 -

Quote:
That's not laziness.  That's greed.  There is no way to "change their destructive business practices" in such a way that they can keep making profit and not harm the planet.



It is greed.  But I think succumbing to inertia could be called laziness.  A lot of these words we use to describe non-virtuous actions are imprecise and interchangeable. 

I just like to use their language.  They (the plutocrats) like to tell the little people they have a sense of entitlement if they expect to live in a just society, you know, where if you have a full time job you should be able to afford to live, for example.

They also perpetuate a social myth that the poor are poor because they are lazy.


--------------------
 

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25646142 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Bigbadwooof said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Bigbadwooof said:
I'm banking on Elon. He's fuckin awesome!


Elon owes me $1,000 fucking dollars which I gave him as a deposit for one of his solar roofs back in July 2017.  Still waiting...


What kinda deal did you have set up?


I just went to his website in my link you quoted and deposited $1,000 there like it asked.


That's very cool!

From an environmental standpoint, I love the idea. Financially speaking though, it's quite significantly more expensive than a normal roof. I think the cost of these is supposed to come down quite a bit in the coming years, isn't it?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25646215 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Sums up my view nicely. The positive feedback has already begun; even if we stopped all climate change causing action today, these feedback cycles will continue.

For me, acknowledging this isn't a defeatist position, but a realist one.


:nodofunderstanding:

more accurate, agreed.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25646567 -

Bigbadwooof said:
Financially speaking though, it's quite significantly more expensive than a normal roof. I think the cost of these is supposed to come down quite a bit in the coming years, isn't it?


We get a new roof AND we get solar, so it's a 2 for 1 deal, which makes it a little more reasonable (we're due for a new roof anyway).

I don't know what will happen with the cost.  Hopefully by the time they get around to doing this, it will be lower.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25646633 -

I imagine the lifespan of a solar panel is about as long as a roof?


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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