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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #25642909 -

things like that article will be ignored by those that know climate change is real because it's just sensationalist junk journalism.  i'm not shooting the messenger, you, STA so don't get me wrong; you didn't write that article.  edit: and yes, part of that article is addressing the junk journalism in general, i saw that.

during this "Greatest Two-Year Global Cooling Event" that the article you cited discusses, 2017 was 3rd warmest year on record for the globe.  so it all depends on how pundits and journalists with an agenda spin the data.  NOAA is made up of some of the greatest meteorological minds in the world and they don't spin.  it was the third warmest on record.  period.  it was cooler than the second and first warmest on record in the years just prior, but that means nothing wrt climate. 

climate is long term.  not one day, month, year, or even a decade although at a decade we're just starting to scrape the surface of statistical significance when it comes to climate.  global warming had to be renamed because climate change is a more accurate moniker, but also because of people like the know-nothing senator jim inhofe who famously showed off his ignorance when he disproved global warming by carrying a snowball into a session of congress.


Edited by relic (11/27/18 02:55 PM)

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 2
    #25642914 -

Bigbadwooof said:
There is a possibility that climate change may actually benefit mankind more than harm it in the long run. Handling climate change may be the problem that finally unites humanity. I believe that we are capable of solving any problem, if we work together.

However, if that is not the case, I'm banking on Elon. He's fuckin awesome!



when about 42% of americans believe in creationism, how can you believe that we will work together to any meaningful degree?  these people literally believe that it's all their god's plan and that they'll be safe no matter...so drill baby drill.

it's things like that stat that make me have zero faith in humans, man.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: relic] * 1
    #25642939 -

relic said:
Bigbadwooof said:
There is a possibility that climate change may actually benefit mankind more than harm it in the long run. Handling climate change may be the problem that finally unites humanity. I believe that we are capable of solving any problem, if we work together.

However, if that is not the case, I'm banking on Elon. He's fuckin awesome!



when about 42% of americans believe in creationism, how can you believe that we will work together to any meaningful degree?  these people literally believe that it's all their god's plan and that they'll be safe no matter...so drill baby drill.

it's things like that stat that make me have zero faith in humans, man.



Yes, but the historical trend is toward progress. As the effects of climate change become ever more apparent, people are going to want to do something about the problem.

You have to understand, right wing ideology is strongly tied to religion for these people. It is foundational learning, and it is very hard to override that sort of indoctrination, but it can be done. Once they start to really feel the pain of it, people will very quickly change their tune. Religion is on the decline, and I don't think any ground lost, will ever be recovered. In fact, I think it will decline in an exponential way.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


Edited by Bigbadwooof (11/27/18 03:06 PM)

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25642948 -

i'd like to hope you're right.  the stupidity that bombards me daily leads me to other conclusions, though.  but i do see where you're coming from and perhaps i'm just fed the fuck up to my eyeteeth with everything today.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25643005 -

VroomerMcZoomers said:
krypto2000 said:
The bank lends you 100, you agree to pay back 110. You use that 100$ to generate 200$ worth of goods. You pay back the bank 110$, you keep 90$. 10$ of money enters the moneytary system and no debt remains.


The $200 used to pay you for the goods you produced was created the same way as the $100 you got from the bank.  Somebody out there got this newly created bit of money the bank miscalls a 'loan' and it is demanded that they too repay more than was created.

In this economy with three players...the bank, you and the one who bought your goods, there was a total of three hundred dollars within it.  And a demand that $330 be repaid.


I think Krypto is correct.

Let's say you have a system with $10,100 in it.  $10,000 is with the general public, and $100 is with the bank.  An entrepreneur wants to start a business and borrows $1,000 from the bank at 10% interest.  The bank creates $1,000 out of thin air (fractional reserve banking) and loans it to the entrepreneur.  The entrepreneur spends that $1,000 with the general public to start his business.

Now, we have $100 in the bank, $11,000 with the general public, and $0 with the entrepreneur.

Next, the entrepreneur sells his product to the general public for $2,000, and repays the bank $1,100.  Now the general public has $9,000 ($11,000 minus $2,000 for the entrepreneur's product), the entrepreneur has $900 ($2,000 minus $1,100 bank repayment) and the bank has $200 ($100 plus $1,100 minus $1,000 which has to be retired again).

This leaves $10,100 in the system, the same as what we started with.

Does that make sense?  I just made up this example.  You can substitute any loan amount, product sale amount, or interest rate and you'll still finish with what you started with.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #25643020 -

Bigbadwooof said:
I'm banking on Elon. He's fuckin awesome!


Elon owes me $1,000 fucking dollars which I gave him as a deposit for one of his solar roofs back in July 2017.  Still waiting...


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25643031 -

krypto2000 said:
The bank lends you 100, you agree to pay back 110. You use that 100$ to generate 200$ worth of goods. You pay back the bank 110$, you keep 90$. 10$ of money enters the moneytary system and no debt remains.


$100 of value was CREATED. $10 into the monetary system isnt creating hidden debt


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: koods] * 1
    #25643142 -

I'll throw my $0.02 out there about the monetary system. I've had a couple 13s and I'm feeling chatty.
The system we have is the system we will have for the foreseeable future. There's no sense fighting it. It's somewhat rigged and if you're not careful it will turn you into the modern equivalent of an indentured servant. Mortgages, student loans, car loans, credit cards, on and on. Once you're indentured you're fucked, you have no bargaining power and options dwindle.  They keep changing bankruptcy laws to exempt certain financial obligations from being discharged through bankruptcy. Once you're in that position there's no escape other than maybe moving to another country and starting over. I'm not sure if that's even an option anymore, the govt wants a lot of money to let people leave. People that support the wall don't stop to consider that the ulterior motive of it might be to keep people in, not vice versa.
The key is to work within the system and not become indentured beyond what you can handle in the first place. I know it's easier said than done, but it's the highest odds path to what remains of the "American dream".
If the current system were to collapse, we'd all die so be careful what you wish for. 
We're all gonna die at some point, but I'd rather it not be from fighting over who gets to eat the dead pigeon found under the crumbling overpass where we'll be living.

If we can survive the monetary system shortcomings climate change will get us, there's no stopping it now.
The same people complaining about immigrants now and wanting them to stay where they are and stew in their indigenous shit will be the same ones wanting the future coastal refugees to go somewhere else, or just stay where they are and evolve gills. 40% of the population lives on the coast so push will come to shove.
Alright I'll STFU now, on to the next unread thread.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: MycoMinded]
    #25643253 -

koods said:
krypto2000 said:
The bank lends you 100, you agree to pay back 110. You use that 100$ to generate 200$ worth of goods. You pay back the bank 110$, you keep 90$. 10$ of money enters the moneytary system and no debt remains.


$100 of value was CREATED. $10 into the monetary system isnt creating hidden debt


I am not using a fractional reserve system for this example so it's presumed the bank has >100$ on hand. We could, but that adds an extra variable with no benefit to the actual explanation.

This practice creates no public debt with the increase of the monetary supply, correct, however it does create inflation which devalues everyones currency does it not? The end effect is the same. Conventionally we would say the banker in this scrnario is profiting off of the borrower however it is actually equally true that they are profitting off of the public as a whole. Whether there is 100$ in the monetsry supply or $5,000 doesn't matter, what matters is how much one oerson possesses relative to another.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25643286 -

Did you see my example above?  I don't think an increase in the money supply is even necessary.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25643298 -

Quote:
Let's say you have a system with $10,100 in it.


Then you have about $10,000 of debt which is collecting interest right from the get go.  Your example is just like other guy's. 

You are injecting these sums of debt-free money into some scenario and then using it as an example when in the real world, the majority of money is debt money.


--------------------
 

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25643329 -

VroomerMcZoomers said:
Quote:
Let's say you have a system with $10,100 in it.


Then you have about $10,000 of debt which is collecting interest right from the get go.


No, you don't.  Not all money is borrowed money created out of thin air.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25643351 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Did you see my example above?  I don't think an increase in the money supply is even necessary.  :shrug:


Yeah, your example is sound, I just didn't think it mattered to koods question so I didn't address it. I think the difference is mine assumed an open system where as yours was closed. Interestingly I don't think there really is a correct answer to that, it seems more like a philosophical question to me.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25643360 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
VroomerMcZoomers said:
Quote:
Let's say you have a system with $10,100 in it.


Then you have about $10,000 of debt which is collecting interest right from the get go.


No, you don't.  Not all money is borrowed money created out of thin air.


He is correct when you factor in the word about. Under our system most of it was created that way, but not all.

I posted this in another thread but it seems prrtty relevant here:

Quote:
Now here's an interesting thought, a very powerful tool to sort this problem out (or cause our swift destruction). The US does have the power to mint currency adding to the money supply without the creation of interest. Currently the mint introduces so little it has no real influence, but they could theoretically mint a coin worth any value they wish and deposit it directly into the public treasury.

It could be used to pay off the national debt, it could be distributed in the form of a stimulus to every american citizen, or even global citizens technically, effectively wiping out all debts public and private and closing the wealth gap completely if we so wish. There's all kinds of obvious flaws and pitfalls to over come if one were to wave such a massive wand but it's an interesting rabbit hole to explore.


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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Enlil]
    #25643387 -

you are full of shit.


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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25643390 -

Enlil said:
You missed the best answer:  Prepare for the end.

Humans aren't going to fundamentally change the way they live.  They aren't going to suddenly set aside their immediate desires in service of some long-term good.  That's not the way we're wired. 

Even if it were, it's too late.  If we reduced carbon emissions to zero right now, the planet would continue to warm for another 40 years.  Since zero emissions is an unattainable goal anytime soon, that only means that warming will continue for longer than 40 years and at a faster rate.

Tl;Dr: We're fucked.


Yep, pretty much. Another solution is get rid of Trump and all the other assholes in Washington who don't believe in science.


--------------------
Nothing posted here is based in any way on fact. It is all complete fiction for my own personal amusement.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Growrow]
    #25643448 -

why do you say they don't believe science?


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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25643472 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
VroomerMcZoomers said:
krypto2000 said:
The bank lends you 100, you agree to pay back 110. You use that 100$ to generate 200$ worth of goods. You pay back the bank 110$, you keep 90$. 10$ of money enters the moneytary system and no debt remains.


The $200 used to pay you for the goods you produced was created the same way as the $100 you got from the bank.  Somebody out there got this newly created bit of money the bank miscalls a 'loan' and it is demanded that they too repay more than was created.

In this economy with three players...the bank, you and the one who bought your goods, there was a total of three hundred dollars within it.  And a demand that $330 be repaid.


I think Krypto is correct.

Let's say you have a system with $10,100 in it.  $10,000 is with the general public, and $100 is with the bank.  An entrepreneur wants to start a business and borrows $1,000 from the bank at 10% interest.  The bank creates $1,000 out of thin air (fractional reserve banking) and loans it to the entrepreneur.  The entrepreneur spends that $1,000 with the general public to start his business.

Now, we have $100 in the bank, $11,000 with the general public, and $0 with the entrepreneur.

Next, the entrepreneur sells his product to the general public for $2,000, and repays the bank $1,100.  Now the general public has $9,000 ($11,000 minus $2,000 for the entrepreneur's product), the entrepreneur has $900 ($2,000 minus $1,100 bank repayment) and the bank has $200 ($100 plus $1,100 minus $1,000 which has to be retired again).

This leaves $10,100 in the system, the same as what we started with.

Does that make sense?  I just made up this example.  You can substitute any loan amount, product sale amount, or interest rate and you'll still finish with what you started with.


Your cash ledger is right, but what you have failed to consider is that the general  public started with $1,000 worth of goods and they end with $2000 worth of goods.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: koods]
    #25643507 -

Why does he need to consider that?

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25643547 -

krypto2000 said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
VroomerMcZoomers said:
Quote:
Let's say you have a system with $10,100 in it.


Then you have about $10,000 of debt which is collecting interest right from the get go.


No, you don't.  Not all money is borrowed money created out of thin air.


He is correct when you factor in the word about. Under our system most of it was created that way, but not all.


Ok, let's start with a system that has $60,000 of real cash - $10,000 in a bank and $50,000 with the general public.  I want to start a giant corporation so I borrow 100,000 from the bank at 10% interest, which they lend me using fractional reserve banking.

The bank creates that $100,000 out of thin air and loans it to me.  I spend that $100,000 on the general public to help me start my business and now there is $10,000 in the bank, 150,000 with the general public, and $0 with me.

I sell my product to the general public for $140,000, and repay the bank $110,000.  Now the general public has $10,000 ($150,000 minus $140,000 for my product), I have $30,000 ($140,000 minus $110,000 bank repayment) and the bank has $20,000 ($10,000 plus $110,000 minus $100,000 which is retired).

This leaves $60,000 in the system, which is the same as what we started with.  Again, the numbers don't matter; this time there was more money created out of thin air than there was regular money.  Yet we could still pay the loan off and retire the money that was created out of thin air.

krypto2000 said:
I posted this in another thread but it seems prrtty relevant here:

Quote:
Now here's an interesting thought, a very powerful tool to sort this problem out (or cause our swift destruction). The US does have the power to mint currency adding to the money supply without the creation of interest. Currently the mint introduces so little it has no real influence, but they could theoretically mint a coin worth any value they wish and deposit it directly into the public treasury.

It could be used to pay off the national debt, it could be distributed in the form of a stimulus to every american citizen, or even global citizens technically, effectively wiping out all debts public and private and closing the wealth gap completely if we so wish. There's all kinds of obvious flaws and pitfalls to over come if one were to wave such a massive wand but it's an interesting rabbit hole to explore.



That's been done before.  The result is hyperinflation.  You can do it on a smaller scale, but that's already being done.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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