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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: krypto2000]
    #25643550 -

krypto2000 said:
koods said:
Your cash ledger is right, but what you have failed to consider is that the general  public started with $1,000 worth of goods and they end with $2000 worth of goods.


Why does he need to consider that?


I was about to ask the same thing.  :smirk:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25643640 -

Also.fal misunderstands fractional banking. If a bank had $100 in deposits, it could make $90 worth of loans. Not $1000.

You really cannot analyze this without looking at assets AND liabilities.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (11/27/18 10:00 PM)

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: koods] * 1
    #25643706 -

No,  because the bank borrows money to lend it to others. They don't need any deposits to lend money.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: koods]
    #25643713 -

koods said:
Also.fal misunderstands fractional banking. If a bank had $100 in deposits, it could make $90 worth of loans. Not $1000.


Right, and I don't understand banking either, because banks charge 5% interest for business loans, rather than 10%.

I was simplifying the real world multiplier effect where a $10,000 deposit can become $100,000 (through multiple loans), but let's use your numbers so maybe you'll understand:

Let's start with a system that has $60,000 of real cash - $10,000 in a bank and $50,000 with the general public.  I want to start a company so I borrow 9,000 from the bank at 10% interest.

The bank creates that $9,000 out of thin air and loans it to me.  I spend that $9,000 on the general public to help me start my business and now there is $10,000 in the bank, $59,000 with the general public, and $0 with me.

I sell my product to the general public for $20,000, and repay the bank $9,900.  Now the general public has $39,000 ($59,000 minus $20,000 for my product), I have $10,100 ($20,000 minus $9,900 bank repayment) and the bank has $10,900 ($10,000 plus $9,900 minus $9,000 which is retired).

This leaves $60,000 in the system, which is the same as what we started with.  Again, the numbers don't really matter; you'll come out where you started.

koods said:
You really cannot analyze this without looking at assets AND liabilities.


Go right ahead, you'll get the same result.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25643798 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
krypto2000 said:
I posted this in another thread but it seems prrtty relevant here:

Quote:
Now here's an interesting thought, a very powerful tool to sort this problem out (or cause our swift destruction). The US does have the power to mint currency adding to the money supply without the creation of interest. Currently the mint introduces so little it has no real influence, but they could theoretically mint a coin worth any value they wish and deposit it directly into the public treasury.

It could be used to pay off the national debt, it could be distributed in the form of a stimulus to every american citizen, or even global citizens technically, effectively wiping out all debts public and private and closing the wealth gap completely if we so wish. There's all kinds of obvious flaws and pitfalls to over come if one were to wave such a massive wand but it's an interesting rabbit hole to explore.



That's been done before.  The result is hyperinflation.  You can do it on a smaller scale, but that's already being done.


That's how it works, how else would it close the wealth gap? If the poorest person has 10$, bread cost 5$, and you give everyone below a weath threshold $100,000 it doesn't matter if the bread rises to $5,000. You have closed the wealth gap and unless the wealthy who are still invested in said economy have been devalued to the point of throwing away their remaining share in the currency all of the poor people's newly gained wealth will have to be honored by participation.

There's all kinds of complications beyond that of course, it's a very complex issue thst could go drastically wrong, but it has an equally strong power to do good.

Edited by krypto2000 (11/27/18 11:19 PM)

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: koods]
    #25643873 -

Quote:
If a bank had $100 in deposits, it could make $90 worth of loans. Not $1000.


But if the $90 is deposited in a bank account, it then becomes the base for .9x90 worth of loans, and so on and so on all the way down the line.

That's in America, with it's 10% reserve requirement.  It can vary, for example, Canada abandoned reserve requirements entirely way back in 90's.


--------------------
 

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

Edited by VroomerMcZoomers (11/28/18 12:11 AM)

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25643919 -

Im kind of obsessed with this.


--------------------
 

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25643927 -

VroomerMcZoomers said:
VroomerMcZoomers said:
koods said:
If a bank had $100 in deposits, it could make $90 worth of loans. Not $1000.


But if the $90 is deposited in a bank account, it then becomes the base for .9x90 worth of loans, and so on and so on all the way down the line.

That's in America, with it's 10% reserve requirement.  It can vary, for example, Canada abandoned reserve requirements entirely way back in 90's.


Im kind of obsessed with this.


Yup, that's correct, which is why I started out using the 10x number, but koods didn't like it since I left out the part about it becoming 10x by going down the line.

Either way you calculate things, you get back to where you started once all the loans are paid off.  :smirk:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25643946 -

But they can't be paid off.


--------------------
 

Either you repeat the same conventional doctrines everybody is saying, or else you say something true, and it will sound like it's from Neptune.  -Noam Chomsky

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: VroomerMcZoomers]
    #25643952 -

Why not?  I just provided several examples showing they can be.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25644025 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
VroomerMcZoomers said:
VroomerMcZoomers said:
koods said:
If a bank had $100 in deposits, it could make $90 worth of loans. Not $1000.


But if the $90 is deposited in a bank account, it then becomes the base for .9x90 worth of loans, and so on and so on all the way down the line.

That's in America, with it's 10% reserve requirement.  It can vary, for example, Canada abandoned reserve requirements entirely way back in 90's.


Im kind of obsessed with this.


Yup, that's correct, which is why I started out using the 10x number, but koods didn't like it since I left out the part about it becoming 10x by going down the line.

Either way you calculate things, you get back to where you started once all the loans are paid off.  :smirk:


If you want to do that then loan can’t be used by the entrepreneur, it has to be deposited.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: koods]
    #25644062 -

which is what the entities paid by the entrepreneur will do with the money.  when he makes some profit, he'll likely deposit that.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: koods]
    #25644068 -

koods said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
koods said:
You really cannot analyze this without looking at assets AND liabilities.


Go right ahead, you'll get the same result.

Either way you calculate things, you get back to where you started once all the loans are paid off.  :smirk:


If you want to do that then loan can’t be used by the entrepreneur, it has to be deposited.


:lolwut:

Ok, go ahead and show us assets AND liabilities so we see what the heck you're talking about.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25644072 -

doesn't the loan contract count as an asset on the balance sheet for the bank anyway?

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25644077 -

Yes, exactly.  I want to see if koods can defend his position using my last example with numbers...  I'm betting it changes nothing in terms of cash left over at the end of the above transactions.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (11/28/18 03:19 AM)

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #25644265 -

starfire_xes said:
you are full of shit.



then fuck off somewhere else with your baseless 'full of shit' proclamations.  XUL contributes better posts than you do.

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25644344 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Bigbadwooof said:
I'm banking on Elon. He's fuckin awesome!


Elon owes me $1,000 fucking dollars which I gave him as a deposit for one of his solar roofs back in July 2017.  Still waiting...


What kinda deal did you have set up?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25644370 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Yes, exactly.  I want to see if koods can defend his position using my last example with numbers...  I'm betting it changes nothing in terms of cash left over at the end of the above transactions.


I looked at your example. It seems there are variables involved which are not fixed, such as the profit that an entrepreneur might make off of a product. Maybe they double their investment. That throws the numbers off.

With that said... I don't really know what you fellas are talking about entirely lol

Edit: Nvm... I just realized, that still wouldn't add more money into the system.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.


Edited by Bigbadwooof (11/28/18 01:33 PM)

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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25644577 -

Enlil said:
You missed the best answer:  Prepare for the end.

Humans aren't going to fundamentally change the way they live.  They aren't going to suddenly set aside their immediate desires in service of some long-term good.  That's not the way we're wired. 

Even if it were, it's too late.  If we reduced carbon emissions to zero right now, the planet would continue to warm for another 40 years.  Since zero emissions is an unattainable goal anytime soon, that only means that warming will continue for longer than 40 years and at a faster rate.

Tl;Dr: We're fucked.


I'm late to the thread but I mostly agree with this assessment. Since at least the 1970s, one recurring theme in environmentalism is that the apocalypse is always imminent but forever deferred. Every generation seems to have one last chance to save the planet. If such a time ever existed, it is long since past.

We should prepare for the inevitable global temperature increase, rather than continue to let blind hope lead us. What could this new hot globe look like?

  • Hot deserts spreading over much of the global south and into southern and even some of central Europe.

  • Cold deserts predominantly in the global north retracting to leave new frontier land in Siberia, Scandinavia, Canada, Greenland, Alaska and even to a certain extent in the Antarctic.

  • Mass attempts at migration from arid zones to the still habitable areas.

  • Mass human die-off coupled with accelerating species extinctions.


It's a shame that the countries that have benefited most from the industrial pollution that has brought us to this point, are also (in most cases) the countries that will see minimal negative, and likely even positive, effects from climate change; whereas the poorest countries least responsible for pollution will be seeing the worst effects.

It would be nice to imagine that those countries still able to produce considerable food quantities (in part thanks to improved growing conditions of northern latitudes) would gift it but I wouldn’t hold my breath. A billion people on earth are hungry already, despite an adequate amount of food grown. Capitalism has, from the beginning, had definite form in allowing (and causing) millions (billions?) to starve. Don't expect climate disaster to significantly change this.

Expect increasingly militarized borders defended with increasing violence. Expect increasingly authoritarian governments, both left and right wing. The nations occupying habitable zones defending their security at all costs; both from the hordes of climate refugees and social unrest within their walls.

Of course, the true complexity of the Earth System (and human social dynamics within it) is probably beyond our comprehension (definitely beyond mine) and models should not be confused with reality, but this is my guess. What we do about climate change will depend on where in the world you live, as environmental and societal changes will vary widely.

The best basic preparation now is to build mutual aid networks within your community and surrounding communities. Meet with your neighbours; find out who has what skills; learn and teach important skills (like sourcing food, construction and mechanical repair, first aid and nutrition); establish communication and electrical networks not entirely dependent on a massive grid; etc etc. This will help you respond to any environmental (or social) disasters that may happen in your community.

I think we can also still save some parts of the environment from total human destruction. Not the whole globe, but every forest or river saved is still something. If you have a local relatively healthy ecosystem, defend it militantly.


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Re: What Should We Do About Climate Change? [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25644592 -

I can't help but think the notion of "give up and just accept that we're all doomed" is simply the scientific equivalent of the theists biblical apocalypse or the new age's cosmological end of the world scenarios. As you say they are always seemingly imminent yet forever deferred.

To me it seems more so to demonstrate a flaw in the practitioners exercise of their chosen discipline, it doesn't matter if that discipline is science, theism, or some hazy place in between; if you become too invested in any practice before long all you can see in it is your own downfall.

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