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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25637752 -

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Rahz said:
Though, things are not as they ever were.


Can we be sure of such claims? Do we know everything that's contributed to all of the extinction events?


I was referencing now -vs- a few thousand years ago when human influence was not so great.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: Rahz]
    #25637906 -

indeed 'science' reverses itself on various issues from time to time, and in general resists new paradigms.

Regardless of  the degree of human involvement in climate change, it is happening, and it seems 99% sure humans will do nothing effective to halt it.

And the trashing of the planet, the growth of population & the move of populations to urban areas* will continue.

The result will be a more and more dystopian world. Outside of the 'gated community' that is the USA, life for humans already is, much more precarious and difficult than many in the USA realize.

It remains to be seen what happens to human evolution post CRISPR. The Chinese are already working full steam ahead in this field, without the 'moral' restrictions imposed in 'the West'.

The potential effects of the multi nation hidden cyber war are also a wild card. At this point the electronic infrastructure of the world and USA, is both very vulnerable, and to a significant proportion, running on outmoded operating systems. (Stuxnet was the tip of the iceberg, see also Nitro Zeus & Flame)

Even without considering many other possibly relevant factors, It seems the evidence points to the future for the human species in general, to be one that is not rosy.


* "Today, 54 per cent of the world’s population lives in urban areas, a proportion that is expected to increase to 66 per cent by 2050. Projections show that urbanization combined with the overall growth of the world’s population could add another 2.5 billion people to urban populations by 2050,.."    http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/news/population/world-urbanization-prospects-2014.html

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: laughingdog]
    #25638037 -

Tragically, I see no flaw in your thinking.


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: laughingdog]
    #25638081 -

laughingdog said:
It seems the evidence points to the future for the human species in general, to be one that is not rosy.


Speculation about the future aside, species don't exist forever. 

(BTW, how many people would describe the present as "rosy"?!)

Due to negativity bias, doomsday thinking is easy to slip into.

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25638219 -

bodhisatta said:
When the deserts formed if people were around they would be blaming their technology. When the ice ages came if people were around they would blame their technology.
Glaciers melt and we blame our technology.

I see absolutely no reason why we shouldn't adamantly control and reduce our pollution but the cause and effect game has little power in arguments so it should be abandoned imo with the focus on just being less of shit as a species.


this is erroneous conjecture. How could you know what people were thinking before they even wrote messages 20,000 years ago and more.

Astonishingly people can believe almost anything, and once they do, well it is nearly impossible to correct their erroneous belief.

Climate change as a function of invisible CO2 is an immense leap of imagination for uneducated or badly educated people. I would give up on trying to convince them, and focus for the short term on improving the education system, especially in areas where science is poorly understood. It wont be easy, and it may be dangerous due to the preponderance of concealed carry and bump stock innovations.

Bullets are visible, so they believe in those. Immunization, not so much. viruses are invisible, unless you have equipment, the whole existence of viruses is equal to any belief in invisible forces, like god and ghosts.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25638514 -

RJ Tubs 202 said:
laughingdog said:
It seems the evidence points to the future for the human species in general, to be one that is not rosy.


Speculation about the future aside, species don't exist forever. 

(BTW, how many people would describe the present as "rosy"?!)

Due to negativity bias, doomsday thinking is easy to slip into.


'BTW, how many people would describe the present as "rosy"?'
Pretty much everyone conducting business as usual - you know shopping for bigger TVs on black Friday, assuming all is good, but they just need the next new gadget.
Also of course I was keeping my statement very moderate, as in dry humor, or an as an Englishman might express it.

'Due to negativity bias, doomsday thinking is easy to slip into' - well that's what one has to ask oneself ( As Clint might say): - are those who keep the 'nuclear clock' ** the realists , while the rest of us are in denial, or are they paranoid? Are those who want to prepare for the next ebola / aids type virus, by doing research in Africa where folks are exposed to 'bushmeat' , the realists, while the rest of us are in denial, or are they paranoid?

As i mention ( a few examples in my post above ( but there are many more)) the track record for humans doing what seem smart 'things' but turn out to be dumb 'things' in the long run, shows that, that is what happens, by far, most of the time.

Based on these sorts of 'things', optimism seems to me a case of wishful thinking. People in China having to stay indoors, on bad air days is not a laughing matter. In fact if you go outdoors then & there and laugh you will be absorbing deadly toxins. ***

As regards extinction of species I agree with you completely.
As regards future predictions being largely speculation I agree with you completely.

** https://www.rt.com/news/doomsday-clock-nuclear-conflict-626/

***
https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/the-most-polluted-cities-in-the-world-ranked/

According to the World Health Organization, the air in these 30 cities was found to be the most polluted in 2016. The air in these cities contains high levels of dangerous particulate matter, small enough to enter the human bloodstream through the lungs—a problem that contributes to an estimated 7 million premature deaths each year."

7 million premature deaths each year ! ! ! and these cities are what nations are proud of as peak achievements of civilization. But in reality they are the opposite, IMO.

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: laughingdog]
    #25641627 -

laughingdog said:
. . . the track record for humans doing what seem smart 'things' but turn out to be dumb 'things' in the long run, shows that, that is what happens, by far, most of the time.


Greater than 99% of the more than 5 billion species that have existed on Earth are now extinct.

It's OK we are headed that way. It's how nature works. Darwinian evolution.

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #25641830 -

extinctions viewed on an evolutionary scale are completely different than coming to terms with voluntarily not stopping to poison each other when we see that we are doing it, and can stop.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/27/magazine/insect-apocalypse.html

what happened due to celestial events, or even volcanic upheaval is not in our realm of control - what we are doing now with oil and coal and chemicals derived from that industry is not being done by a volcano or an asteroid. It is not celestial greed, or God's will either. It's us.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25642275 -

redgreenvines said:
extinctions viewed on an evolutionary scale are completely different than coming to terms with voluntarily not stopping to poison each other when we see that we are doing it, and can stop.
what happened due to celestial events, or even volcanic upheaval is not in our realm of control - what we are doing now with oil and coal and chemicals derived from that industry is not being done by a volcano or an asteroid. It is not celestial greed, or God's will either. It's us.


:thumbup:

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #25642287 -

We're startstuff so actually it would be celestial greed or God's will. Only human perspective seperates humans and other nouns from a fundamentally interconnected world. The sun and earth to stand on are both just of an important organ to your human body as your heart or bones are


--------------------
Everything you need in one spot.

My Q&A thread. Ask me questions here rather than in Private Message
Bod's chat thread

5g a day keeps the 5g away

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25642290 -

this ruining the earth is spiritually impoverishing


--------------------
Make love not war
And art
Save the planet
Fix the earth

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25642343 -

bodhisatta said:
We're startstuff so actually it would be celestial greed or God's will. Only human perspective seperates humans and other nouns from a fundamentally interconnected world. The sun and earth to stand on are both just of an important organ to your human body as your heart or bones are


Is that so? You really think that's logical?

Sounds to me like what is call 'sophistry', and this type of argument would never stand up in court, for example. It may also be an example of mixing different logical levels.

If you go to the level of the 'all is one universe' then there are no humans. And of course there is no 'greed' at that level either. And at an ultimate level one reaches 'being' and there is no time either. So yes, I think you're mixing levels, to get something that perhaps sounds profound, but doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

A similar issue arises, with pleas of insanity, and arguments that free will is fictional.
If someone murders your wife, and gets off scott free, and then returns to the street,
and murders your child, you are unlikely to be impressed with arguments for: 'no free will', insanity, or 'the universe did it'. And this sort of thing does happen. Many offenders are repeat offenders, and not just non violent ones.

On some level 'free will' may be an illusion, but if society is to function, folks must act responsibly, and surprisingly steps to make sure they do act as responsibly as possible do result in societies that we prefer to live in.

Often arguments aimed at destroying the notion of responsibility would seem to be what adults expect from adolescents

Edited by laughingdog (11/27/18 11:40 AM)

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25642671 -

bodhisatta said:
We're startstuff so actually it would be celestial greed or God's will. Only human perspective seperates humans and other nouns from a fundamentally interconnected world. The sun and earth to stand on are both just of an important organ to your human body as your heart or bones are


I think you are twisting the facts with mythology and hiding from your own moral scrutiny.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #25643025 -

DividedQuantum said:
Well, I'm just not sure there's as much room for doubt as a lot of people think. Just my feeling.


Mitochondria is now to determined to be not solely from the mother but can be from the father, as well.

https://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/in-huge-shock-mitochondrial-dna-can-be-inherited-from-fathers/

Science's religion is Predilection, while the Society's, is Money.

ice-cores were not studied properly, in the first place. the Compression of the ice-cores, specifically.

http://notrickszone.com/2018/11/21/new-swiss-ice-core-study-shows-man-not-responsible-for-end-of-little-ice-age/

and an oft-ignored, and approaching, Solar Minimum is causing the weather patterns to be erratic, as of right now.

excess C02 in the atmosphere is not good, however. but thus far, all i see is a conflation of many predictions, in order to promote a narrative.

we have not seen C02 levels this high since when? since when humans never had such a vast population, nor industrialization?

how does one account for the presence of high C02 levels at that time, then?

i mean, explain it to me, like i'm too dumb to know myself, what all this means, how it's been evidenced, using chemical and atmospheric sciences, that in the future, our actions will have resulted in the destruction of the earth and mankind.

i mean, unless people like yourself can dumb down and explain and convince idiots like me, i guess we're all fucked until the government forces people to participate in the way they wish to foist.

Quote:
this is erroneous conjecture. How could you know what people were thinking before they even wrote messages 20,000 years ago and more.


fallacy fallacy.

Quote:
I think you are twisting the facts with mythology and hiding from your own moral scrutiny.



and you aren't?

hey everyone, billions of people. drop what you're doing, it's time to learn how to be "one". :facepalm:

Edited by akira_akuma (11/27/18 04:15 PM)

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25643442 -

Your requests can be solved with Google. That you want one of us to learn for you seems unnecessarily indirect.
Be one with Google, you wont be an early adopter.

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25643479 -

lol, that is so asinine, it's not even funny. you are clearly complete OBLIVIOUS to the state of politics online. why would i trust Google, who manipulates search results and skews them towards political ends for themselves and their pocketbooks? and you realize that an assessment has been done. if you can't explain the facts, then how can you be trusted.

i presume someone will be able to make a post that will extricate the facts, based on evidence, but summarized with their own words (and thus the sources will have validity as SOURCES; too often people treat articles or essays as PROOFS- this has never worked and never will work. you can't convince anyone but you want people to listen to you? life doesn't work that way.)

A lesson for those on the left.

Edited by akira_akuma (11/28/18 04:46 PM)

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25644291 -

OK explain in detail why people should have bumpstocks or concealed carry
- that should be much easier to analyze than the relatedness of the water cycle, the life cycle of corals, the melting of polar ice-caps, the reflectance of the atmosphere, photosynthesis, combustion, oil, and coal formation, the geologic record, the loss of species over the last 20 years in comparison to any previous period in history or geologic records, how agriculture and industry put stresses on these natural systems, and how humans can modify their carbon footprints.


OK, and do this to simplify the current political stupidity, and do it without reference to any body else in case they have hidden political agendas.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25644633 -

alright
I tried to upload the answers to my pics area and show them here but it did not work:
Quote:
There were problems with your upload:
everything_changes.png was bigger than the allowed file size and was not saved.
ozone.png was bigger than the allowed file size and was not saved.
toxic_rain.png was bigger than the allowed file size and was not saved.
theplanetwarmsup.png was bigger than the allowed file size and was not saved.
toxic_rain.png was bigger than the allowed file size and was not saved.
theplanetwarmsup.png was bigger than the allowed file size and was not saved.


the pics were captured from Britannica Illustrated Science Library - 16 Volumes which you can find on Pirate Bay (thePirateBay.fyi - but use a VPN to mask your torrent activity) if you do not already have it.
Book 4 is weather and climate.
enjoy educating yourselves.

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25645357 -

he didn't listen, so.....*edit*

Edited by akira_akuma (11/28/18 08:23 PM)

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Re: The psychology of climate change denial [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25645531 -

I see, this is what you are on about. I won't be your megaphone.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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