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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25631455 -

What's the difference between seperation and Holism..? Is it nothing..? I have a crazy craving for future speak here..

How do Buddhists deal with emotional cosms.. and existential angst... and deterministic materialism.. or even mixing in idealism..


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Thank you for your Time...

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25631458 -

So isn't the goal of Buddhism cessation of suffering?

And if so.. is that the same as moral objectivity?


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Thank you for your Time...

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: BrendanFlock]
    #25631503 -

the 'moral object' (of transmission) is the sina qua non to the ne plus ultra of 'liberation'.

in otherwords. speak. but do not lose yourself in words. act, but do not act in vain. think, but do not think ignorantly. be, and understand becoming.

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25632213 -

not just understanding of becoming,
but engaging directly with the moment - thus conditioning the unconditioned with habits that mitigate hatred, greed and delusion.


In this way mind is both the embryo of the moral self and the uterus for it's development


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: Kickle]
    #25632930 -

Kickle said:
If that's the view of Buddhism than I think it does have problems.

The problem I see, to use your terminology, is that the contents tend to be borderline horrific in many ways and for many people. If context doesn't give a rip because it is unaffected, then the contents can continue getting shittier and shittier with impunity. That IMO is a problem.



your thinking seems unclear:

is space to blame for the fact that you approve of some objects but not others?
is space to blame for war, or can it take credit for flowers?
Is space responsible for the horrors of the world?
Would any sensible person  assume space should be responsible, for objects (that arise, persist for awhile, and then decay and transform) within it?

likewise, is listening to blame for screams or can it take credit for whispers of love?
likewise, is listening responsible....
etc.

like space and listening, awareness is also  context
Awareness is the background or context for all of our experience.
Without awareness nothing can be experienced.
And like space and listening the same questions can be asked:
Is awareness responsible... to blame ... can it take credit...?

In every case it is clear that the background or context is not responsible for its foreground, contents, or objects / phenomenon / perceptions

....Awareness is not something Buddhism invented.

...Although we usually focus on objects and not the space around them,
objects can only exist because of space.
This is simply a fact, we can do nothing about.
....Likewise nothing can be experienced without awareness, but we usually
focus on our perceptions, and not the context of awareness in which they occur.
...Buddhism, and meditation simply reveal this fact.
...It may usually be ignored because we tend to focus on what we find tangible, concrete, or representable by nouns, rather than the abstract and intangible context. ....That everything we know and can touch is dependent on something less substantial, seems counter intuitive. We are used to the idea that we get stronger by lifting weights for example, so the idea that something weaker, is more fundamental, than what appears stronger, brighter, & heavier etc. seems against common sense.


But It turns out to be useful to recognize the truth that the more abstract is more fundamental,
And It turns out to be useful to recognize the truth, that awareness is unaffected by perceptions.
As best I can explain it, at the moment, it goes something like this:
....What we usually take to be our identity
is in fact content & not context.
....However, 'ever present context' (space does not come and go like the objects within it)
(and awareness does not come and go with each passing thought and feeling and sensation - and in meditation we slow down enough to observe this process meticulously)
...So what we usually take to be our identity (the story of our life, feelings, gender, role, etc.) is subject to impermanence, unwanted changes, and stress)
.....Whereas the context we ignore ( awareness) is by comparison at peace, as it is unaffected by content. (So this truth turns out to have a positive side)
....So once a shift is made to recognizing the possibility of resting in awareness, suffering is reduced. At least according to some teachers of meditation.

By the way there is no terminology here that is mine. Les Fehmi uses the terms 'context' and 'content', when explaining 'Open Focus', and they maintain their usual meaning.
He takes nuances of attention much further than I do, in this basic attempt at clarification. It is is perhaps of interest that he has a background in both biofeedback and meditation and that the terminology is secular.

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: laughingdog] * 1
    #25632992 -

you're trying to suss a subsistence cult. how luciferian of you. yes, we know that we have to deal with objects as they come and go, and that's one facet of Buddhism.

you can't blame them in their geography for wanting an 'out' from the 'remainder' of this plain and simple fact of 'impermanence'.

it's a solely 'inner' journey, meant to be conveyed only by the 'noble'. most people don't realize that, because particular schools compartmentalized and then modified the original meaning of the doctrine of awakening, which was an endeavor to provide a path from ceaselessness and from condescension (lies, in otherwords, misleading paths) to find an exit. not to embrace 'the ways of the world', but to erase the subsistence on it. in it's petrifaction, it became worldly and devout to the world, henceforth relying on subsistence, instead (as opposed to the 'enlightenment for the noblest path'), the teachers were conformed to a way allowing those with more worldly-acclaim for their bodies, and the life, because the "teachings" were thusly offered to more people, perverting the way- like with most religions, off to a good start then, the reliance on the 'light of reason' is what is left to suffice, to those who do not wish to understand the origins- and whereabouts now- of the ideas and practices from the mouths of the original teachers. this is why in the Eastern religions, and 'paths' of sorts that understand how to comprehend this 'reasoning', that is, without having to be told where to hear these 'silent tones' [because if you're told they were silent, and thought that was literal, you'd never know of them; sort of like being told there is a God but having no personal relationship with that God; or even more so, like having one of those relationships, but having it based on a dogmatic source that has only convinced people to stray from those 'occult' facets within, for the sake of controlling their very souls]; and these 'tones' are a 'transmission' meaning, anagogically, that 'what is transmitted is received'- not just in the literal sense, but that, also- it can also belay the moral standing of the grounds of most religions' origins (found in etymology/philology, but also as well in dogma, as well, but this is where the 'secular' is introduced, and changes the message of 'transmission' into, much differently, a prison), and metaphorically speaking, that is, analogically to the spiritual notion, and literal notion, the 'transmission' of the 'doctrine' by way of 'moral conviction' or vindication, speaks not only of the "truth" of the matter, but also the notion of how one is to 'spark' such transmission, that is to say, the notion that one 'sparks' these 'transmissions' in 'succession', through 'lineage', to 'keep the way' -- otherwise, known in Buddhism, specifically, as "Dharma", viz, the the Buddha's non-karmic, non-samsaric, Dharma (not the normative brahminical "dharma", per se; but a different and absolute sort) -- and this all highlights the notion that this was done for the sake of "truth", and not for the sake of a "school of thought" - hence the doctrinal standard is set high for what is effectively a Luciferian 'spark', like Yeshua, and like Isaaic, like the "Old Ones", it is "handed down" not from a dogma, but from 'transmission'. it is 'found'.

as if gold fetched from the deep sea.

Edited by akira_akuma (11/22/18 05:59 PM)

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25633022 -

Would you say your post pertains to the exoteric v. esoteric dichotomy?


--------------------
Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: DividedQuantum] * 1
    #25633199 -

esoteric. the exoteric can hardly inform anyone of truth.

i mean, the old doctrine is long aged, and the notion of refusing to keep it to small monastic group is essentially a breach of the original doctrine. i mean, Buddha apparently let the school grow, but it wasn't suppose to be a "invite for all, get your enlightening here" situation, for everyone.

thing is, it's not a "left hand path" just as it isn't a "right hand path" (in eastern schools this is simply referred to as Orthodoxy, and then on the left-hand, Heterodoxy), it's the middle path, meaning it accepts the doctrinal Vedic teachings place, in History, but concludes it's not real path to enlightenment. so Buddhism posits not that Brahman is the supreme reality and godhead (in Shiva incarnate, whatever be the case from whatever time- even in the time where Agni was worshiped), but instead, that there is 'more'.

it goes into territory that is practically kabbalic (in form, not so much function), with the conclusion being that the "supreme reality" isn't "Brahman" but instead is beyond it, and is "everything and nothing", and even still beyond that -- to put it frankly, and simply.

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25633383 -

akira_akuma said:
you're trying to suss a subsistence cult. how luciferian of you. yes, we know that we have to deal with objects as they come and go, and that's one facet of Buddhism. ….



You seem to write in a great flurry of inspiration, but without editing or taking the time to reread. So I wonder if you really know, if what you write matches your thoughts. And I wonder whether you test your thoughts to see if they 'pass muster'. To me it all seems confusing and hard to read.

You pile so many generalities on top of each other that no clear meaning seems to emerge.
For example:
Do you really think I'm trying to form a cult?
Do you really think I'm devilish?
(That my post provoked this hostility, on your part seems a little odd.)
What does it mean to say: “we have to deal with objects”, that we don't already know  & how is that relevant, to Vipassana or mindfulness practice?

“you can't blame them in their geography for wanting an 'out' from the 'remainder' of this plain and simple fact of 'impermanence’.”

...In the above sentence who does ’them’ refer to? and what is their “geography”? And who or what wants to escape 'impermanence’?

...Hypnotic language is often built with unspecified parts. The way you write makes use of the same sort of structure (or lack of structure). I wonder: are you hypnotizing yourself or hoping to affect others in some ‘poetic’ ways?

...Here are some references to what is meant by unspecified parts in hypnotic language. It is a documented phenomenon and not something I made up.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hypnotic+language%2C+unspecified&t=h_&ia=web

...As far as I’m concerned, 'it goes without saying', you are of course free to write in anyway you wish, but if you really intend to reply to me, in regards, to meditation techniques and explanations used by experts to help those suffering from stress, in hospitals and clinical situations, it seems rather an odd style to adopt.
...I make no claims to being smart or original, I have simply spent a lot of time studying the matter from many perspectives, and enjoy trying to clarify some of the subtle points (of well established meditation principles and practices) for myself, as well as others. There are many similarities across teachers, traditions, and methods. In many ways for example Tibetan Buddhism is different from what Eckhart Tolle teaches,- that is if we focus on externals - yet there are core similarities. I have no interest in some of the odd practices, of some odd sects, or trying to defend some arbitrary position in regards to some arbitrarily chosen definition of "Buddhism".
...My interest is in  those aspects of meditation ( and the understandings on which those practices are based) that are consistent across various places and times and clinically proven to have positive results.

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: laughingdog]
    #25633411 -

the opposite of being hypnotized by language, and thought

step by step into experiencing

Eckhart Tolle - The Journey Into Now -


Edited by laughingdog (11/22/18 10:48 PM)

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: laughingdog]
    #25633487 -

no, you are assuming all of this

Quote:
You seem to write in a great flurry of inspiration, but without editing or taking the time to reread.



Quote:
You pile so many generalities on top of each other that no clear meaning seems to emerge.




both of these statements are flat out wrong. firstly, yes, inspiration, no-editing, no, that's wrong. no rereading, no, that's wrong. Everything is grammatically correct, and spelt correctly. (i don't worry about capitalising everything, or else i'd take forever to get my thoughts out, but you never mind that) -- and secondly, no meaning emerges? well, you should at least understand how to infer what is in from out, if you meditate on forms, but even if you meditate on the formless- you should know what 'objects' are. you should know what precedes the "space", if you are one to discuss what one 'sees' (or hears) or comprehends in meditation. :shrug:

Quote:
Do you really think I'm trying to form a cult?
Do you really think I'm devilish?
(That my post provoked this hostility, on your part seems a little odd.)



oy.

you are misinformed what "luciferian" means'. it's not 'devilish'.

Quote:
the opposite of being hypnotized by language, and thought

step by step into experiencing




funny, i was talking about doing the same thing. only i'm giving you the keys. i've read Power Of Now. it's literally an instruction manual on how to hypnotize yourself. what do you think experiencing is?

it's being.

by manifesting, objects, or questions/answers, you are being.

there is only everything right being Luciferian. those who think it wrong are misapprehending what being a 'light-bearer' means. it's certainly nothing devilish. it's exactly like that that you propound you're managing to achieve the concordance of, but without speech (might i add, your addresses here do very little in the way of showing me you have any place to speak on someone's 'delivery'. you often speak in vague terms, yourself, and with grandiloquent aspect, only without the sesquipedalian inflection) -- only the answer you have given to your own propounding is a video on Eckhart Tolle. wow.

ancient knowledge, you've been trumped by Eckhart Tolle.

:smile:

Quote:
“we have to deal with objects”, that we don't already know  & how is that relevant, to Vipassana or mindfulness practice?



do you Zen? do you object-oriented philosophy, bro? (damn, probably not)

but yeah...ZEN

and from the Vipassana, of course "objects" would refer to "thought-forms" (gods, angels, demons, ect) and other such "fetters" of existence.

Quote:
...In the above sentence who does ’them’ refer to? and what is their “geography”? And who or what wants to escape 'impermanence’?



i'll spell it out for you, dude.

their geography is very prone to the culture they partake in, and that which grew along that region. due to the regions sparse densities (due to chaste and the ways in which settlements are built, and governance handled), monasticism has always been common - and since it's a very old culture (and the substrata even older still), it's handled [via old laws] as a "subsistence" culture, like i said, but a very 'grown' one...as in 'big'...and thus it has an emphasis on "sufferance" like most "big cultures" at around the time/era, that these cultures start popping up- at around the time monotheism is picking up, in the east of Asia [that's old timey geography]--).

and who wants to escape impermanence? lol

the entire religion is about the very task. :facepalm: regardless of 'technique' (which the Buddha only laid out for very few to comprehend, themselves, because it's pointless to disturb the mind with more than just the outline given, espoused as such, because of this reason,- the reason being that most people won't comprehend it and will not be able to assert themselves properly, so hence, guidelines were given, and discourses, in order to help focus the mind of the practitioner.

Quote:
...Hypnotic language is often built with unspecified parts. The way you write makes use of the same sort of structure (or lack of structure). I wonder: are you hypnotizing yourself or hoping to affect others in some ‘poetic’ ways?



just the same when you talk with your particular inflections, styles (in writing- very important) and, of course, your idiosyncratic use of syntax and clauses -- very neuralgic reading to me, in the sense that it's minimalized (like most structured "dialogue"; while i prefer the "discursive" style), and very... lugubrious, and not cloying [i would say my style can be cloying], but more like... waxy and lutarious].

and in the original, and in most, Buddhist discourse, there is ALWAYS repetition, in fact, there is a distinct flair for it...and you...so i don't know why you'd...ya know...be against the notion (as if that's what i was doing; but you did say something about 'hypnotism' and well, that's kinda how "changing your mind" works on the purely 'teaching' level. what is Active in Buddhist thought, like in most traditions [but the emphasis is heavy in Buddhism], the knowledge must be "transmitted" to be known in full, and not just in theory or some grounded rationale, that has no basis in experience.)

Quote:
...Here are some references to what is meant by unspecified parts in hypnotic language. It is a documented phenomenon and not something I made up.



hey, laughingdog....


POW-ER-OF-NOW

Quote:
...As far as I’m concerned, 'it goes without saying', you are of course free to write in anyway you wish, but if you really intend to reply to me, in regards, to meditation techniques and explanations used by experts to help those suffering from stress, in hospitals and clinical situations, it seems rather an odd style to adopt.



i didn't realize this thread was solely for the purposes of clinical practices like therapy. :shrug: and of course, you realize i'll reply how i wish, to whom i wish, as well. i'm not going to start talk clinical situations unless prompted to. imagine like i'm an ai...now imagine that i'm not an ai, and not a mindreader, and that this thread isn't actually just about clinical practice concerning meditation practices (not even the real concern of Buddhism, anyway...meditation is more of Vedanta school, or maybe Chinese Tradition....

Quote:
...I make no claims to being smart or original, I have simply spent a lot of time studying the matter from many perspectives, and enjoy trying to clarify some of the subtle points (of well established meditation principles and practices) for myself, as well as others. There are many similarities across teachers, traditions, and methods. In many ways for example Tibetan Buddhism is different from what Eckhart Tolle teaches,- that is if we focus on externals - yet there are core similarities. I have no interest in some of the odd practices, of some odd sects, or trying to defend some arbitrary position in regards to some arbitrarily chosen definition of "Buddhism".



you can focus on "meditation principals" (this is that idiosyncratic language again; you mean, "clinical practice in the use of meditation techniques"?) -- i'll comment about the original doctrine as espoused by a teacher. you can make all the claims you want to my "inauthenticity" and your "license" (your figurative "profession"- which to me, isn't really more than "charm", considering this thread isn't about clinicians trying to pass off spiritual practice as medicine? or is it? i dunno.)

Quote:
...My interest is in  those aspects of meditation ( and the understandings on which those practices are based) that are consistent across various places and times and clinically proven to have positive results.



understanding what Buddhism is about beyond what has been extricated from it, in medical practice, is one entirely different ballgame, and notionally, much more "enlightening". literally. but hey, no one ever said you "should" do anything.

Quote:
....Awareness is not something Buddhism invented.



of course not, Buddhism is a response and reaction to the Vedic schools.

Edited by akira_akuma (11/23/18 01:05 AM)

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: laughingdog]
    #25633680 -

laughingdog said:
Is space responsible for the horrors of the world?




Maybe? I don't know on this. Do you? If you know the origin of horror fill us in.

laughingdog said:Would any sensible person  assume space should be responsible, for objects (that arise, persist for awhile, and then decay and transform) within it?



Sure. Because it enables the groundwork to do so. It's not as innocent as you are making out. It isn't independent from the objects within it. Without the objects there is no space, without space there are no objects. They are entwined. So to say space has no part in this is incorrect IMO.

Quote:
laughingdog said:
likewise, is listening to blame for screams or can it take credit for whispers of love?





I wouldn't say blame, but yes, in part. If someone watches 'Keeping Up With the Kardashians' all day long and then sees the world through that lens, listening was part of that process. One can choose to walk away and not listen or watch that garbage. Passively listening and feeling helpless because listening just listens, is BS. Listening is entwined with the activities of the listener.

laughingdog said:
Without awareness nothing can be experienced.




Without experience, nothing is aware.

laughingdog said:
Is awareness responsible... to blame ... can it take credit...?




As much as anything. Personally I'm unclear on how much control any of us have. And so it's difficult to assign blame or take credit. But IMO awareness has as much a role as anything that happens.

Quote:
laughingdog said:(space does not come and go like the objects within it)



How do you know this? This is not self-evident to me so please provide some support for the assertion.


--------------------
Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction?
Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: Kickle]
    #25633720 -

Can't really fault someone for misinterpreting Luciferian.

Anyway, Buddhism is similar to Christianity in that we should acknowledge to ourselves that while we have a seed of divinity we are also imperfect and we all put our pants on one leg at a time. It doesn't proscribe nirvana but rather that we should see things as they are and by the light of that awareness refine ourselves. I see no fault in Buddhism, but plenty of fault in people. There's an article in The Sun this morning, a Buddhist monk was caught in a drug fueled orgy. There was also a picture of a monk on a bus pleasuring himself.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: Rahz]
    #25634777 -

Re: Rahz

Some folks like to debate everything
such as:
'Do guns cause murders?'
Millions of dollars are spent on this debate in the USA.

other folks
try to persecute other
folks for non-violent 'crimes'.

As you point out many such folks
look outwards for the source
of their dislikes, resistance, and hostility
but fail to understand
the defense mechanism of projection.

Ultimately they are their own victims.
As the world they perceive seems full of
rivals or enemies and stress.

This is rather different from
the Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj quote:
"In my world, nothing ever goes wrong."
https://tomdas.com/2015/09/08/how-a-self-realised-person-sees-the-world/

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: laughingdog]
    #25634958 -

ok, mr buddhist, you don't like to debate things, just meditate then. you won't do anything or change anything but you don't want to debate, so... you don't even want to talk; because it's useless.

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25636599 -

That's the spirit!
vitality!
vigor!
Brightness is important in terms of illumination, AKA enlightenment.

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #25636744 -

you are being sorta hypocrites though. telling people to 'basically shut the up morons, but hey, listen to me tell you what for'.

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: akira_akuma]
    #25636785 -

Coincidentally Angel # 49 says:

• Difficulty raising oneself up and manifesting wisdom
• Complexes of superiority and inferiority
• Spiritual extremism or lack of spirituality
• Does not meditate
• Atheism
• Egoism, hypocrisy, absence of principles
• Opposes feelings of fraternity
• Critical writer, person of negative influence
• Passion, hatred
• Escapism, flight
• Fear of matter
November 23 to November 27 link

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #25636947 -

Various sects of Buddhism. Many don't believe living enlightenment can go beyond Bodhisattva. Seems reasonable. Whether such a state is desirable depends. Most people want Nirvana, the real deal, the ultimate, and they don't want to work and sacrifice for it. How can any worthy system persist in such a clime? Even the priests, clerics, and monks become corrupt.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

why there is reality and patterned, law-like consistency at all, rather than noise or non-reality is not a question physics answers. It's a question physics presupposes an answer to in order to provide other answers.

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Re: Problems with Buddhism? [Re: Rahz]
    #25637192 -

that's just life.

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