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OfflineInnerBeing
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Registered: 12/07/04
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Buddhism Anyone?
    #3460271 - 12/07/04 05:01 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I just thought and see if I could start a topic on Buddhism and how it affects, our chemical and spiritual relationships. I for one have found that meditation has been an amazing spirital voyage for me, but I have also found that it helps me during psychedilic journeys as well.
Some interesting topics for discussion may be: How the Tibetan Book of the Dead relates to the psychedilic experience. Meditation and mushrooms, and etc.
Lets hear it!


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Kiss the ring Bitch!



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InvisibleFucknuckle
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Registered: 04/24/04
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3460384 - 12/07/04 05:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I hvae almost no clue but I am waiting to see this thread bloom as I can maybe gain some knowledge.


He waits..........................


Welcome to our Forum by the way.............. :cheers:


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What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.


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OfflineInnerBeing
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3460408 - 12/07/04 05:37 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks man,
I have been practicing Buddhism for several years now. My experience has been with Tibetan Buddhism, and Japanese Soto Zen meditation. I am not sure which came first, psychedelics or Buddhism, but I think there is much to discuss in of which is how they relate to eachother, and to us.
I find the iconography of Tibetan Buddhism to be immensely powerful, and I was curious to see if anyone has experienced any visuals and etc, that you feel relates to the Buddhist experience.


--------------------
Kiss the ring Bitch!



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3460764 - 12/07/04 07:00 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

buddhist techniques for meditation are valuable as well as the whole approach to the 8-fold path.

for meditation two types stem from a common core and then reconverge

type one is
---relaxation or concentration meditation (samatha )
-------including
-------anapanasati (breath based)
-------chackras
-------yantras
-------casinas
-------mandalas
-------mantras
-------some koans
-------prostrations
-------moving meditations

type two is
---insight meditation.(vipassana )
-------anapanasati (breath based)
-------walking meditation
-------some koans
-------meditations on mind forms, and mind states

basically they reconverge into samatha-vipassana which is both types together, and that simplifies back into anapanasati - breath meditation usually, but can be anything. (a good meditator may be in samatha for 10 to 20 minutes even though he is practicing vipassana meditation, merely because he needs to build up some base to proceed from)

so some structure is created in the samatha meditations and not every one has to be tried to get going. those that try a lot might do so for purpose of getting methods, but mostly it is to find one that can be managed, and to begin building CALMNESS.

samatha is all about CALMNESS.

after calmness, there are jhana's to explore (*****)
after calmness. there is vipassana to explore (insight)

some meditators avoid insight and become jhana junkies - exploring more and more intense mindstates, but it is ok it all bends back into insight since it goes into voidness (*****)

the insight meditation observes cycles such as "beginning, middle end" of breath or "lifting moving treading" of the gait in walking.
From insight the element of reflection builds deep resonance and intimacy with living - understanding and the path.

the interruptions from concentration (samatha) and insight meditation teach a lot about who we are as the unconscious surfaces and requests acknowledgement.

How the interruptions are dealt with becomes the most significant part of meditation, as that is where the personality becomes reformed, how patience is built and calm alertness becomes the basis for intelligence .

Interruptions are noted and handled with gentle and firm patience and one resumes the meditation, whatever type it is.

in this way delusion is transcended - arrogance is bypassed - love (as in metta- patient nuruturing caring) is instilled at the core and the path is explored from whatever personal point of view arises.


psychedellics are no substitute to meditation.
they do toss the mind up into a stacked frame state which is like jhana(*****), though jhana always has a point of focus making it a more ruddered and keeled kind of mind state.
they also stimulate kinds of insight, which is different than the shoddy emotional realizations that arize ( they really are delusional) but simmilar in that they arize from stacked frame vantage points(*****).

meditation is handy to the psychonaut since it provides a keel and a base, and often (but not always) a refuge when things get rough.
when there is an element of arrogance, meditative practice is not a handy tool to the psychonaut that is out of line. the justice of the unconsious mind will prevail over the supressor of true nature.


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OfflineInnerBeing
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3460828 - 12/07/04 07:19 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Great post!
I found what you mentioned about the pursuit of jhana to be very interesting. As a beginning meditator (still am, always will be), I found great comfort in states of jhana, and pretty soon I found myself searching for that same level of jhana over and over again. I found myself searching for this blissful state, and wasted allot of effort trying to reach it. I would remember after the meditation feeling like I didn't accomplish anything by the sitting, it was quite frustrating.
After those pointless pursuits, I finally sought out a teacher to guide me along the way, and that is when I abandoned progress when doing meditation.
As far as psychedilics go, they certainly don't replace meditation, but I believe that they can be relevant when contemplating the bardos of exsistance. Some meditators use psychedelics as a method of training so that they will be able to better cope with the bardo of death and rebirth. Like psychedelic experiences, death can be every bit as frightening if one is not prepared. However, with the proper training, it is desirable to change that terrifying transistion, into a total transformation, i.e. rebirth, realization, and etc.
Unfortunately, I think it is too tempting to abuse psychoactives while offering the excuse that it is being used for spiritual training. Any prolonged use of psychedilics would probably degrade the quality of meditation to some degree, so it is probably best, like with all things, to use it in moderation.


--------------------
Kiss the ring Bitch!



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OfflinePeyoteZen
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3460856 - 12/07/04 07:27 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I dunno, i prefer Tao.
Because i was born and raised 20th century Americano
And it just seems silly to adopt a culture/way of life that is from the (ancient) far East.
Its all about going with the flow.
When Ancient Oriental peoples went with the flow, Things like Buddhism were the natural result.
When some American dude goes with the flow, the result is something like Hunter S. Thompson!!  :smile: :smile:
Or just a laid back counter culture person in general.

I know, cuz my dad is buddhist.  He has a little buddhist group he's involved with.  But the funny thing is that he is a skinny, white dork who grew up in the South; raised on Corn Bread and Christianity.
Its still good for him i think.  But its not natural.  The culture does not naturally arise.
Thats why i've always thought that the post-modern, west coast (california  :smirk: ) breed of buddism was a bit silly.


--------------------
ISLAMIC MIGRANT CRIME WAVE COMING TO A GRANNSKAP NEAR YOU!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3460894 - 12/07/04 07:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

if you want to combine I reccommend using some salvia. the short duration prevents dissapation, and salvia kind of self limits especially if you are contemplative.

I also reccommend ignoring bardos except as they arise in succession here on earth. Same as ignoring the jhanas, sure take note if they arize but not worth seeking or desiring.

one of the fruit of insight was abhidhamma which describes the succession of mind moments: in each arising and falling away there is a death and a rebirth. These need your attention during life, this is your path generically.

what is happenning with you is your path specifically but this is the degree of fine grain resolution of life, death, and rebirth from the point of view of vipassana.

did you ever hear the statement
"i die daily"
i think it was a quote from christ.
it relates here I think. directly.

the bardos are here, now. (actual body death is a fixation - something that changes all the rules so the players want to win - but we have to give up that one)
jhanas are irrelevant by products (but lots of fun!)
ongoing creation is the big rush. (& always happenning)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: PeyoteZen]
    #3460931 - 12/07/04 07:43 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

PeyoteZen said:
...
I know, cuz my dad is buddhist. He has a little buddhist group he's involved with. But the funny thing is that he is a skinny, white dork who grew up in the South; raised on Corn Bread and Christianity.
Its still good for him i think. But its not natural. The culture does not naturally arise.
...




you can't buy buddhism
well you can pay for membership etc.
most ex christians and ex jews merely replace the one for another and end up rebuilding their churches from their unconscious minds.
lots of skinny dorks spending a whack of dough at dharma dhatu.
lots of fat ones too.
at least they wear good clothing and have some self respect.

I like TAO it is fundamentally the same thing but with the operative word being NATURE instead of the path even though TAO means PATH.

Hunter S? hmmm
well in Taoism they talk about circulation and concentration which is the same thing as samatha and vipassana.
being laid back is 1/2 of the path.
rising forward is called for too.
it's just nature-al


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3460982 - 12/07/04 07:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I started with Zen and now practice Tibetan Buddhism. Zen is very cool, and I think the best way to approach the concept of Emptiness, but it is not so good at creating positive states of mind such as Bodhichitta, and ultimately does not effect one's life very much.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3461196 - 12/07/04 08:32 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

"Buddhism Anyone?"

Yes, I'll have some. Well done and a baked potatoe with it please!


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3461329 - 12/07/04 09:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Divided_Sky said:
I started with Zen and now practice Tibetan Buddhism. Zen is very cool, and I think the best way to approach the concept of Emptiness, but it is not so good at creating positive states of mind such as Bodhichitta, and ultimately does not effect one's life very much.



it could be some sect of christianity or judaism
if you have someone to show how it is done
they are all the same or at least all go to the same place as far as setting you on the path which continues....
Zen would work just as well as tibetan and vice versa.
(I have had both tibetan red hat teachers and zen and southern hinayana too, all good - I like the burmese style best... but had no live teachers (well the tibetan started with burmese))

do you know joko beck
http://www.willkefilm.de/index.html?willkefilm/englisch/beck.html
here is one super wise chick
no abstraction about fake voidness bullshit
(voidness is not bullshit but concepts about it are)
true zen
and connection with self and what is happenning.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3461333 - 12/07/04 09:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

The moment One can not eksplain, is the moment One live.


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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Onlinedeff
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: Gomp]
    #3461667 - 12/07/04 10:24 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

very thorough red :smile:

I could definitely expand my own methods more :cool:


--------------------



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OfflineInnerBeing
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Registered: 12/07/04
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: deff]
    #3462011 - 12/07/04 11:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I actually have attended one of Joko Beth's schools in Orange County, CA. She is wise indeed.
I was a monk in the Theravada tradition of Buddhism, it was a temporary ordination, as is customary in the Thai culture. My wife is Thai, I am not, but because of my Buddhist interests, I thought that I would give it a try. The ordination was of only a month, and I have gained allot from it, but oddly enough, it has also hindered my practice. I seem more distracted after the ordination by material things, routines, and etc... I was better focussed before it.
Red, you truly seem to know what you are writing about. I am glad to have met you on this board.


--------------------
Kiss the ring Bitch!



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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: Gomp]
    #3462076 - 12/07/04 11:46 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Gomp said:
The moment One can not explain, is the moment One lives.




I love that one gomp!


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3462144 - 12/08/04 12:00 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

This Jewish Christian Gnostic has had an Experience that was so powerful and so classically Tibetan Buddhist, that I wear a bracelet and a ring with the Great Mantra OM MANI PADMA HUM on them. And, whereas the living room reflects the Jewish Christian Gnostic mushroomic nature of our world view, the room that this computer is in [The Blue Room] is decorated with a few Hindu Yogic items, and a signed copy of Alex Grey's 'Theologue,' but mostly with Tibetan Buddhist wall hangings, Kalachakra mandalas and bronzes of Mahakala with his consort Vishnamata, flanked by Chenrezig (Avalokiteshvara) and White Tara. Gyuto monks chanting and Tibetan incense frequently suffuse the room.

We 'live' in the Living Room (mostly with guests), but the wood carved figures of yogis 'thinking' and 'meditating' that sit in the picture window of The Blue Room describe the activities that essentially go on in here. From The Blue Room, my posts emanate to The Shroomery.

Reconciling Christian identity with Buddhist understanding has been as difficult as reconciling an unbridled sexual desire for all beautiful women with one partner at a time in life. It is another unlikely conjunction of opposites in my psyche that condition one another, like being Jewish and Christian, or Christian and Pagan. I am all of these things, but prioritize and label myself according to the hierarchy with the most complete expression (for me) of Compassion at the top, or center.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (12/08/04 07:30 AM)


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OfflineBanJankri
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3462564 - 12/08/04 01:40 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I started to get interested in zen buddhism recently by listening to audio recordings of alan watts. now i am reading his book. I must say I am pretty fascinated.


--------------------
Just let everything flow, just flow right to the center of everything. You gotta turn off your mind and relax, and then just float downstream...


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OfflinePed
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3462627 - 12/08/04 01:54 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

It was an image of the one-thousand armed Avalokiteshvara that I had seen on a PBS program about the Dalai Lama which prompted me to type the word into Google image search. I was sitting at my computer at the time. Some very "trippy" images returned, and because they were "trippy", I placed one as my desktop background.

At this time, I was the stoner kid who lived in his parents' basement. That being so, within a week of placing the image of Avalokiteshvara on my desktop, I had the opportunity to encounter it while under the influence of psychedelic mushrooms. Under the influence of the mushrooms, the image appeared to possess such immense holiness, such sacred meaning, that it occupied my attention for hours. During that time, it felt as though "how to live" was being downloaded in to me.

Such profound experiences of "how to live" are common with psychedelic drugs. But this time around, I couldn't help but connect the experience with the Buddhist image. The way such immense wisdom and compassion seemed to emanate from a 1024 x 768 JPG image had piqued my interest, and before long I was reading my first book about Tibetan Buddhism.

And all the insights in those pages resonated with the same wisdom and the same compassion I felt that day. When I finished that book, I picked up another. And another. Real changes were starting to appear in my life, and before long I was in a seat at Central Library listening to a monk transmit the same lessons verbally. And his words resonated with the same wisdom and the same compassion felt in that first inspiring encounter with a JPG image. That monk became a very special friend, and for a time I was one of his assistants.

But it hasn't all be fruit, jam, biscuits and orange juice. I entered into the Tibetan Buddhist lifestyle with the idea that a bath spirituality would wash away all my problems, that I wouldn't have to apply any effort. When it became unavoidably clear that effort was needed, I applied it with the idea that method and rigor would put an end to all my problems. When it became unavoidably clear that method and rigor were meaningless without wisdom and compassion, there were some tremendous stumbling blocks. I didn't feel like I had the power or worthiness to cultivate wisdom nor compassion.

What's worse, I had alienated my family, friends, and even my spouse with my forays into Eastern religion. I had begun to preach at them, to tell them how to solve their problems. I had such confidence in the things I had been told that I wasn't able to understand that people only want to hear about "how to live" when they ask "how to live."

The problem was that I was in this thing because I wanted to get away from my problems, instead of getting through them. Buddhism teaches you how to get through your problems. When you try to use Buddhism to get away from your problems, Buddhism seems to ring with this shrill dissonance that calls attention to your priorities.

And so I took a major step back. I had entered into the whole ordeal with many bad motivations and wrong ideas. I needed to get my priorities straight. Now, I approach the matter lightly, and occasionally I try to distract myself in other things. It's appropriate to be patient, and to be prepared to encounter anything on the path. Dharma is always turning in the back of my mind now; it has it's influence over just about everything I do. Not a day goes by without Dharma offering itself as a unique lens through which to view common situations. The way it seems to function like part of my mental anatomy: I hope it never stops.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: Ped]
    #3462780 - 12/08/04 02:30 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Ped

you describe the natural process of gentle awakening.
a sustainable approach.
a path one worth taking.

the retreat, then a return with vigor to home is classic.
meantime the subtle shifts in attitudes makes possible ongoing
awareness.


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OfflineNomad
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Re: Buddhism Anyone? [Re: InnerBeing]
    #3464204 - 12/08/04 01:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I think the teaching of the Buddha is lost and has to be rediscovered.


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