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OfflineMeph
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Love and buddhism [the Nirvana]
    #1522248 - 05/05/03 05:22 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Love is a form of desire.

Yet, Buddhism is clear on the fact that to reach Nirvana, you must liberate yourself from all of your desires.

Does this apply to loving someone and wanting to be with them?

Or maybe we are told to love in a passive manner, without desire? Maybe we are told to have powerful feelings for others, without longing or asking for anything?


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Anonymous

Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: Meph]
    #1522348 - 05/05/03 06:00 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Love is a form of desire.

but it isn't. many people mistake certain types of selfish desire for love. this isn't love though.

Yet, Buddhism is clear on the fact that to reach Nirvana, you must liberate yourself from all of your desires.

nirvana isn't a 'place' that is 'reached'.

'liberating' yourself from desire with the intent of reaching some goal is a paradox.

a jealous, possessive kind of love is not love. love comes from understanding and compassion.

Maybe we are told to have powerful feelings for others, without longing or asking for anything?

the concept of 'other' arises from the concept of 'self'. to the awakened mind, there is no duality between self and other....


Edited by Anonymous (05/05/03 06:01 PM)


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OfflineMeph
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: ]
    #1522530 - 05/05/03 06:57 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Love is a form of desire.

but it isn't. many people mistake certain types of selfish desire for love. this isn't love though.





What I meant by that is: love without being loved back almost automatically provokes desire.

Quote:


Yet, Buddhism is clear on the fact that to reach Nirvana, you must liberate yourself from all of your desires.

nirvana isn't a 'place' that is 'reached'.





Where did I say Nirvana was a place? Nirvana is a state of being, and you can certainly reach it.

Quote:


'liberating' yourself from desire with the intent of reaching some goal is a paradox.





Good point. But then, taken to the extreme, every action is caused by some kind of desire. My hands will not type this text if I do not want them to.

By the way, you said "reaching a goal". If I was picky, I'd say: "Goals aren't places that you reach". Sounds familiar?

So wanting to reach Nirvana is a paradox? You said it yourself:

Quote:


a jealous, possessive kind of love is not love. love comes from understanding and compassion.





What I understand from what you just said is: it is okay to want something, unless it is done in a manner that is selfish and potentially harmful to others.

There are two types of desire. A "jealous, possessive" kind, like you describe it, and another kind that can very well go hand in hand with understanding and compassion.

What about wanting to help others? Wanting to save lives?

Quote:


Maybe we are told to have powerful feelings for others, without longing or asking for anything?

the concept of 'other' arises from the concept of 'self'. to the awakened mind, there is no duality between self and other....




How is this related to the rest of my post?

True; the concept of other arises from the concept of self. But how is any of those concepts negative?

I exist. You exist. You are not me. I am not you.

It doesn't take a Harvard graduate to see that we are two different people.

I used the word "other", and it seemed that I am un-awakened because I did so. But there are certain realities in this world that you cannot ignore; I cannot make a point without using the words "I, me, you, him, her, we...".

Should I correct you on your use of the word "yourself" in the first part of your message?

To finish off, I want to say that I am not trying to reach Nirvana. I was just making a point which I thought was interesting; I am not looking for an answer. I'm looking for a good discussion, end of story.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: Meph]
    #1522537 - 05/05/03 06:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Love is a form of desire.




Love is a form of desire if it is categorized.  I love this, but I hate that.  Without categories, what is love or hate?

Quote:

Or maybe we are told to love in a passive manner, without desire?




Replace love with breathing in the above and see if you find your answers.  :smile:


--------------------
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OfflineMeph
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: Seuss]
    #1522624 - 05/05/03 07:30 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Love is a form of desire.

Love is a form of desire if it is categorized.  I love this, but I hate that.  Without categories, what is love or hate?





I'm not sure I fully understand what you're trying to say, so I won't answer just yet. I don't want to get off topic :smirk:.

Quote:

Or maybe we are told to love in a passive manner, without desire?

Replace love with breathing in the above and see if you find your answers.  :smile: 




Good point! Such a powerful message, and so little words!  :smirk:

We have no control over our feelings and thoughts. If your body decides to stop breathing for a reason or another, there isn't much you can do about it.

But now that I think about it, love is passive.

But it could be passive AND impregnated with desire...   


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: Meph]
    #1522631 - 05/05/03 07:32 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What about wanting to help others? Wanting to save lives?




This is why Mahayana Buddhism instituted the ideal of the Boddhisattva, the individual who puts off his enlightenment to help others attain theirs. They knew that in a non-dualistic, fully present, and completely content state, the "will" to do anything disappears.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflineBlueLemming
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: Meph]
    #1522636 - 05/05/03 07:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I believe according to buddhism love and compassion for all, are two things acquired through enlightenment. However attachment or the need for another is considered a boundary must break loose from.


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-BlueLemming


Edited by BlueLemming (05/05/03 07:35 PM)


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OfflineDeiymiyan
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: Seuss]
    #1522638 - 05/05/03 07:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"Love is a form of desire if it is categorized. I love this, but I hate that. Without categories, what is love or hate?"
---------------

Then, maybe it becomes a relative issue, in the sense that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

Everyone has a different view as to what they love more and love less; so, love is a very broad concept then.

As a consequence, because it is so broad at our level of scaling (ie- the concept of love), would it ever be possible that there is a scale size where everything is loved?

At the human level, has anyone ever been (or still is) "in love" with someone so much that they didn't (don't) care about the faults the other has?

If we used ourselves as models, and theoretically extrapolated to a bigger and more complex scale, then it seems interesting to think of ourselves as smaller pieces to a bigger puzzle.

Without categories, in my mind (so therefore starting from myself as an initial reference point), love becomes a gradient: it begins with a lower level that I am familiar with and can handle, which then, increases to some value that my mind is simply too little to consider.



--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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Anonymous

Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: BlueLemming]
    #1522804 - 05/05/03 08:36 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

yeah, that's pretty much it.


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OfflineMeph
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: BlueLemming]
    #1522869 - 05/05/03 08:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I believe according to buddhism love and compassion for all, are two things acquired through enlightenment. However attachment or the need for another is considered a boundary must break loose from.




The need for attachement? We all need to be loved, respected and taken care of. It's not something you can get rid of like a pair of old boxers!

What if a flood destroyed all you had, and killed everyone you loved? Would shedding a tear draw you away from your goal of acheiving enlightenment?

It is normal to love others. In fact, people who are loving and caring are usually more open-minded than people who refuse to "give in" to perfectly human, natural and necessary feelings.


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineMeph
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: ]
    #1522889 - 05/05/03 09:01 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

yeah, that's pretty much it.




You're letting someone else sum up your point for you, in one sentence?

I brought up many points that you have failed to comment on. I'd be interested to know what you have to say, because this conversation is still very much open.

If you don't answer, I'll just take for granted that you decided to answer my post just to contradict me. Don't jump in the boat if you're not planning to stay in it until it's arrived.


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: Meph]
    #1522966 - 05/05/03 09:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The need for attachement? We all need to be loved, respected and taken care of. It's not something you can get rid of like a pair of old boxers!

What if a flood destroyed all you had, and killed everyone you loved? Would shedding a tear draw you away from your goal of acheiving enlightenment?

It is normal to love others. In fact, people who are loving and caring are usually more open-minded than people who refuse to "give in" to perfectly human, natural and necessary feelings.




All of this is based on attachment. How would your views/feelings change if you are the one that is dead rather than the one left to mourn?


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: Meph]
    #1524112 - 05/06/03 11:28 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Surely it is better to love without attachment than to mix the same love with fear of loss? All other things considered equal, I mean.


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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: Meph]
    #1524179 - 05/06/03 12:16 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

When someone want to reach nirvana, is this not a selfish act, driven by the ego?
Like wanting to be a rock n roll star. Or is this the loop hole so to speak.

Using the ego to destroy the ego
using the self to destroy the self


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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OfflineMeph
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: Sole_Worthy]
    #1524651 - 05/06/03 03:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

When someone want to reach nirvana, is this not a selfish act, driven by the ego?
Like wanting to be a rock n roll star. Or is this the loop hole so to speak.




So you consider ambition and personal progress to be selfish, if I understand?


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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OfflineSole_Worthy
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: Meph]
    #1524748 - 05/06/03 04:19 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

wanting to become someone who would be considered superior by others.


--------------------
get it all together get like birds of a feather


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: Meph]
    #1525058 - 05/06/03 05:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Saying "Buddhism," is like saying "Christianity." There may not be as many divisions and subdivisions in Buddhism as there are in Christianity, but aside from the weird cultic varieties, you have the Mahayana, Theravadin (all that is left from the Hinayana schools), and Vajrayana. The Theravadin Buddhism that is found in Thailand or Cambodia, has a very monastic quality to it, and so it addresses monks and nuns first, and then family life (marriage, childbearing, etc.)

Mahayana Buddhism with the Bodhisattva ideal has a certain amount of necessary human attachment built in, because one vows to save all sentient beings, and this is a missionary ideal. One must 'care for' others, not attempt to remain in a desireless Nirvanic detachment alone (or mono - one - from where we get 'monk'). The solitary realizing of one's own liberation is the path of an arhat, but not a bodhisattva. Bodhisattvas sacrifice going into Nirvana for the sake of others.

Vajrayana Buddhism (Kagyutpa, Nyingmapa, Sakya or Gelugpa) makes room for family and marriage, as well as the Tantric sexual practices that use and transcend desire (kama - as in kama sutra). It is the Eastern version of Holy Matrimony, though perhaps better articulated in terms of psychospiritual states of union with one's partner. Alex Gray paints this theme extensively.

Compassion (Karuna) is 'skillful means' - it is both the means to Wisdom (Prajna) and it is Wisdom. The male and female in sexual union (Yab-Yum) becomes sexual union cosmicized into the higher union of Compassion (male) and the embracing Wisdom (female). So, one Buddhist school suppresses desire, and another embraces desire, but Compassion must be the manifest form of Nirvana in both forms. The Great Mantra of Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism - the Mantra of the Deity of Compassion - Avalokitsvara is 'OM MANI PADMA HUM' which conceptually translates as 'The Absolute [Nirvana] is a Jewel in the Lotus of the Heart' which is to say - Love.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/07/03 06:45 PM)


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OfflineMeph
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #1525722 - 05/06/03 10:30 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Very informative, thanks! That was a great contribution to this post :smirk:


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.



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Invisibletak_old
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: Meph]
    #1526428 - 05/07/03 02:03 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think that loving and expecting love in return is bad. To love unconditionally is completely diffrent.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Love and buddhism [the Nirvana] [Re: ]
    #1526509 - 05/07/03 02:28 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

to the awakened mind, there is no duality between self and other...

Are you awakened and beyond dualism or merely parroting some popular Zen literature?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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