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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Nikon Addict] * 1
    #25211953 -

Nikon Addict said:
From what I understand Hamas rise to power was the result of the corruption that existed under Yasser Arafat. The Palestinians were given a lot of money in order to help them develop their so called state/nation. Instead of helping his people Arafat and others lived large at the expense of their people. The Palestinians elected Hamas in response to the corruption and here we find ourselves today.




Arafat's perceived corruption certainly had it's place in electing Hamas.  However both Hamas and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) organizations differed from Arafat's Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) and Fatah party in that Hamas and PIJ were overtly militant and part of the rejectionist movement.  Basically Arafat, PLO, and Fatah believed that a two-state solution exists and rejectionists do not.  Palestinians living in Gaza understandably side with the militant arms because of their current plight. 

Nikon Addict said:
I've come across quite a bit of information claiming Saudi Arabia supports terrorism. They're an extremely oppressive society yet they remain one of our strongest allies. I'm not trying to change the subject, I'm just trying to quickly point this out. I don't get it...



It's all about influence in the region.  As far as being state sponsors of terrorism (not the same as terrorists coming from Saudi Arabia or living there)...I haven't done enough research to know.  However we DO give Saudi Arabia weapons and military support while they commit genocide in Yemen. We do this because Saudi Arabia is able to exert a decent amount of influence in the Middle East, giving the US some control in the area.  We look the other way while Israel persecutes and kills Palestinians because Israel is the main military power in the Middle East and we are about to exert some control in the area as allies.

The US supports governments that are friendly towards it, with little regard to human rights.  We have a long history of this in the Middle East.  The CIA helped to overthrow Mosaddegh in Iran in 1953 so we could install the Shah who was friendly to us.  We supported him until the revolution in the 70's. The CIA was preparing to overthrow Qasim in Iraq before the Ba'athist's did it for us in 1963.  Qasim was turning towards the Iraq Communist Party at the time and...well, it was the Cold War and we could not have Iraq be communist.  The Carter Doctrine explicitly put Persian Gulf countries under the auspices of the US (this was primarily to deter Soviet intervention).  We gave BOTH Iran and Iraq weapons while they killed each other during the Iran-Iraq War.  Our history of foreign policy since WWII in the Middle East is long and convoluted and you could spend all day spinning your head around on the subject.


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"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."

Francois-Marie Arouet

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Nikon Addict] * 3
    #25212633 -

Nikon Addict said:
From what I understand Hamas rise to power was the result of the corruption that existed under Yasser Arafat.  Instead of helping his people Arafat and others lived large at the expense of their people.



Hamas: What You’re Not Being Told About Israel’s Arch Enemy
Quote:
Regardless of one’s views on the hyper-polarized subject, one unfortunate detail often goes unacknowledged: Israel is directly responsible for the growth of Hamas.

Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who served as Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s, told Pulitzer prize-winner and former New York Times journalist David Shipler that he had helped finance the Islamic movement in Palestine in an attempt to counterbalance the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization) and the communist movement.

“That early funding helped nourish the seeds of Hamas and other Muslim movements"

Avner Cohen, who worked as a religious affairs official in Gaza for twenty years, told the Wall Street Journal in 2009 that “Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel’s creation."  Instead of trying to curb Gaza’s Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat’s Fatah.

The Israeli government’s contribution to Hamas’ growth is now admitted and is markedly similar to the U.S.’ role in birthing another terror group: al-Qaeda. In the 1980s, around the same time Israel was lending support to Hamas to shift the region’s political balance in its favor, the CIA was offering substantial support to the militant mujahideen in Afghanistan. Though the goal was to undermine the Soviet Union’s power in the country, the mujahideen eventually evolved into al-Qaeda, which, like Hamas, remains a violent faction that the U.S. continues to cite as a justification for ongoing military operations.




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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25213152 -

Thank You Mr. Bojangles...

Whoah! Thank You So much Falcon91Wolvrn03... I really appreciate this information... I was listening to an interview Amy Goodman did on her show, Democracy Now. I can't remember her guests name, I wish I could but he was a Palestinian journalist, that I do remember. He pretty much said the same exact thing that you shared with us. Not that I didn't believe what he had to say, it's just that I felt he was putting his own spin on things. Now I'm a believer... I just joined Anti-Media. Thanks for the heads up...


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personal note: "It’s fair to say I’m stepping out on a limb, but I am on the edge and that’s where it happens.”

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Nikon Addict]
    #25213192 -

Democracy Now! is a great program.  :thumbup:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25213274 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Democracy Now! is a great program.  :thumbup:



I love Amy... I applied for an internship for her program about three weeks ago. I haven't heard anything yet... Wish me luck! :smile:


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personal note: "It’s fair to say I’m stepping out on a limb, but I am on the edge and that’s where it happens.”

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Nikon Addict]
    #25213286 -

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/17/opinion/gaza-israel-palestinian-extremism.html

I think this is a fairly intelligent assessment of the current situation, looking at the history of it a bit. Hamas comes up.

Actually, and I've been poking around with this since I read that NYT article, I do agree that Hamas was formed as a reactionary group against both Arafat and Israel. I think they used proto-Trumpian tactics to be elected, as well. Specifically, they played on the fear of Israel, they played on the fear of the Six Day's war, and most of all, Hamas promised total domination and no compromise. Under Hamas, they argued, the people wouldn't have to coexist with Israelis. Hamas would make the Israelis disappear completely. With Hamas at the helm, they were gonna "win", once and for all.

Well, that didn't happen.

What did happen is that Israel, more specifically Netanyahu, took the same road. They elected a guy who also campaigned on the idea of "no compromise, no surrender". Playing on the fears of Hamas, they promised the total destruction of the Islamic faith, so that they wouldn't have to coexist with them.

That's also not happening.

What is happening is a breakdown in communication, which is causing more and more violence. And since both sides have taken a moral stance of "no compromise, no surrender", it's not gonna get any better anytime soon.


Nikon Addict said:
In general, I believe the world generally "tolerates" Israels actions because of U.S. support of Israel. This support has been long standing, dating back to the United Nations land split. Today, we have a bunch of lunatic evangelicals who directly influence the President... Each Wednesday a group of them "hands on pray" over Trump in the oval office... These same sick individuals consider the recognition of Jerusalem as an important step in fulfilling scripture. There are a bunch of them... My favorite is Paula White... She's Trump's "God Whisperer"... She had an adulterous affair with the infamous Benny Hinn, another prosperity gospel preacher who heals people of all sorts of illnesses by touching their foreheads. Anyway, after the affair was disclosed Paula White told her parish "God has forgiven me" instead of asking her parish for forgiveness. She also told her parish that God told her to tell them they needed to give the church one month's salary. There's so much more on White but I just wanted to give you some idea who is "spiritually" advising our President. Then there's Robert Jeffress... He's on Fox quite often. He said now that Jerusalem has been recognized the next step is to destroy a particular Muslim Mosque located on a particular mountain and erect a Jewish church/temple in it's place. Again, this is important in order to speed up the second coming of Christ. At least according to him... This is what we're dealing with here. Loony tunes hell bent on fulfilling scripture regardless of who it might hurt. I'm being serious, this is what they're up to... How can there be peace when whack jobs are plotting to demolish a holy Mosque?



This is actually a very good explanation for a lot of wars in the Middle East. I've talked about this before, but the book of Revelations and the Quran's version of the Book of Revelations all end very similarly. It is always a great battle, The "armies of Rome" against the "armies of the prophet", and at the last second when all hope is lost and almost everyone is dead, Jesus is supposed to return. The only difference between the Bible and the Quran is which side Jesus is supposed to come down on. Some say he's supposed to come back on the Ka'ab stone in Mecca, some say Jerusalem, but wither way, a great conflict with a whole lot of dead people is the requirement.

I actually think that the entire reason the US is constantly involved in these wars is due to the religion of the presidents. Think about it: How cool would it be, to be the president that precipitated the second coming of Jesus Christ?

And more importantly, who cares about the lives of a few soldiers and a few brown people when there's a chance that you could go down in history as the guy that brought the second coming of Jesus Christ?

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Kryptos]
    #25213402 -

Thank You so much Kryptos... Seriously, I really appreciate your perspective... I'm trying to come to terms with all of this so hearing from others sheds some light on the matter at times. The article was interesting, I've always enjoyed reading/listening to David Brooks.

Talk to U soon...


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personal note: "It’s fair to say I’m stepping out on a limb, but I am on the edge and that’s where it happens.”

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Kryptos]
    #25213578 -

I've often thought about all of the...emphatic...christians who actually can't wait to be raptured, and what lengths they might go to in order to, as you said, precipitate the second coming.  On the one hand, it doesn't make much sense, trying to force god's hand by fulfilling some prophesy or another, but then, religious zealots often don't.(make much sense)

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #25213690 -

Based off of historical evidence I would say Christians often "force the hand of God" by taking their religion and more specifically their belief in damnation and purging the world of heretics. Christians have a pretty awful and even more an awfully long track record of religious baaed genocides and religious military conquest across the entire world.


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Edited by TNK (02/22/22 22:22 PM)

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