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OfflineTipote
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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22599444 - 12/01/15 02:30 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:


they make hypocritical statements like "Israel shouldn't have that land, it belongs to Palestine" which is a statement that someone who supports terrorist rocket attacks




Palestinians have a right to defense just as israel does. The fact is that Israeli has taken territory beyond what was imposed in 1947/8. Rocket attacks are technically illegal but only because they cannot be targetting directly at the military. Just as Israeli airstrikes in Gaza are illegal and the use of white phosphorous, because they are indiscriminate also and WP is chemical warfare.

Quote:

Palestinian authorities do not have control of their country, and people have to fight those within whom are trying to commit terror attacks on Israel.




they collaborate with the israeli military and when the israelis get involved, they back off. The PA is a collaborater government and weak at best.

Quote:

though i don't entirely disagree with fighting in disputed territory, i don't agree with them firing rockets into mass population centers; and if they do that, then it's understandable Israel's aggression, to an extent...but then when they bomb a UN school, despite the possibility of their being arms there, i seriously doubt the efficacy of an attack like that, and is not only illegal, but completely unethical.




I agree except for the point of understanding Israeli aggression. Israel has iron dome - that doesnt solve everything but Israeli reaction to rocket attacks is indiscriminate - to put it lightly. over 2000 civilians die everytime they go into Gaza. Many times, it is not reported how Israel breaks ceasefire protocols, when someone (even if they are not under the control of Hamas) fights back in any way, including rockets, then Israel uses this to attack and says they are "responding". Israel also assassinates those that secure a negotiated ceasefire among all Palestinian militant factions.

Quote:

so there are two sides to this coin, as you can see.




I think often this conflict is purposefully portrayed as though it is two sides, in reality - this is an assymmetrical fight where the weaker party have legal rights to self determination and resistance. Israel is the aggressor in this situation and have been since the beginning.

Quote:

Israel should be allowed to expand past the resulting diaspora's meager land allotment. they've grown quite a bit, and alot of that land was unused...no one had to fight about it. :shrug: though i don't put all the fighting on Palestine either...just alot of the fighting has to do with them not wanting to give them more land than agreed on, while there is no reason to keep land that you aren't using.
Palestinian's seem to be as much against the growth of Israel, as Israel is against their's. who wouldn't fight over that? now if Palestine could work with Israel (at this juncture) to set up some less ludicrous borders, then they both have land freed up for expansion.




i agree wholeheartedly with falcon93 on this..
Quote:

Palestine isn't trying to expand.  They just want to keep what's theirs.




Who says that no one wasn't using the land? Israel declares large stretches of agricultural land as for military use, they confiscate it and eventually use it themselves after years of keeping the original owners and farmers of the land off. So, maybe they can't use it because one of the most powerful militaries in the world stops them?? Palsetinians very much use their land.

And who says that you can just overturn private ownership if someone else decides you arent using it? When is that ever ok?
If France was growing from immigrants, is it ok to start stealing parts of germany or belgium??

Palestinians have weak, at best, means of resisting land confiscations. They are taken and no one gives a shit.

Israel however wants as many Jews in the world to come to Israel. I have american-jewish friends that say that israelis say they are not Jewish because they are not in Israel.
After the charlie hebdo attacks in Paris, Netanyahu told French Jews that they are not safe and should move to Israel. They don't have to expand because they have too many people, they want to expand and need lots of jews to say they have a demographic majority - what good is a "jewish state" without a jewish majority. This is a constant fight.

Palestine has even less that what was taken in 1967. please tell me if you need translations for this map/can't use google translate/guess



this map shows what is left after the separation barrier - which goes way deep into palestinian territories - thus cutting off towns, then there are the checkpoints, israeli colonies etc etc. What is left of Palestine? Can you see who is the aggressor here?


Quote:

i don't agree that all the land that's been expropriated by Israel should be given to them without a fight, but then again, i don't think that Palestine should be so defensive about them expanding either; especially with the rhetoric that "they've always stole the land from us, for centuries" to recruit freedom fighters. let the fighting happen diplomatically, then if Israel still insists on their operations, then there'd be set more of a reasonable precedent to say "look Israel is pushing too far".




im sorry but you have to be rather blind to not see that "Israel is pushing too far" already. the map i have shown you can allude to a small part of this.
Its true that land has been taken for over a century. Admittedly some small portions in the beginning (since 1890s) by private land sales to jews, but this strategy of taking palestine has been long in the making. Now you see Israel asking the US for parts of Syria it illegally took and occupies.

Quote:

but by now Israel is already appearing to fight an "enemy" not willing to negotiate. :shrug: how do you get around that?




Israel doesnt want to negotiate. All the peace deals were about the idea of 2 states but now its past that point. you take more land while you pretend to make peace and eventually you dont have to pretend anymore. Even Hamas have said they would recognise Israel and would pursue peace. Israel continues to attack and occupy all of Palestine.

I suggest you look up...  Breaking the Silence. If you haven't heard of them - they are former IDF soldiers who testify to the abuses against Palestinians.  I also recommend +972 Magazine. If you need any more sources for particular information, let me know.

Quote:

KMt said:
The Israelis' need to stop their illegal occupation and ask for land in America or Europe, I think they'll get alot of support for that and the world will be at peace.




I think that would be nice but realistically that won't happen. Many Israeli Jews however have been leaving Israel and going back to places like Germany, where their families originally were based.

i agree with akira that Israelis can stay if they want to work with palestinians. Just as in post-apartheid south africa, Mandela did not kick the whites out, he said that they should stay so we can rebuild the country together and live in harmony. There are now many Jewish groups working for Palestinian right and this is only rising. The racist colonial thinkers of Israel may seem to be stronger but are just increasingly isolated.


Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Jews and Arabs are Semitic tribes, they've lived together before, and the Jews once occupied that land, and for as long as anyone else did...they just came back. :shrug:

and you're ignoring the rest of whatever you must have gleaned from my post, because i never said that what Israel is doing in terms of bombing and settlement grabs is legal...i said it's illegal.

but that doesn't excuse Palestinian conquest either. Israel is there, fair and square...Palestine had an agreement that that's Israel.




what Palestinian conquest????????? I agree that Israel in its 1947 form has a legal basis and has to stay.(even if it was imposed by the outside completely unfairly against the will of the local population)

also Israeli jews are not all semites, many converted from all over - you cant believe that stuff that they just came back? What if muslims came and took spain back by force and just said - well we were just coming back? This argument can be used indefinitely because all peoples came from another place if you go back far enough.

The fact is there is also a war of archeology. Israel destroys archeology that shows the true SHARED heritage of Palestine and keeps safe the Jewish archeology only. They also take large stretches of land just for the possible chance they might find something, then they keep the land. They rewrite ancient history

I will respond to other comments later,


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OfflineTipote
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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: Tipote]
    #22599674 - 12/01/15 03:22 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
case in point: they are tied by history AND genetics. guess what? the Arabs came from the Jews, whom were BOTH sitting and living in the SAME LAND for CENTURIES AND CENTURIES.




Arabs came from Jews? what??

I do agre with the fact that they were sharing the land for centuries - harmoniously and Israel has ruined that now. Jewish neighbours in Palestine would look after Muslim babies of their neighbours and visa versa. These relations are destroyed through the policies imposed on Palestine that only favour one peoples.

Quote:

the Jewish diaspora's just kept heading west, and the Arabs eventually came out of THAT; and so the Palestinians still stuck around near Jerusalem...who cares? the Jews just came trekking on back, back to where they (and the Arabs) came from. :shrug:




waaat? In jerusalem there was always a muslim quarter in east jerusalem which Israel has slowly pushed out and filled with israeli jewish settlers. who cares? i think you dont understand that if you had a housemate who moved out and then came and stole it back and kicked you out, thats not ok. under no circumstances is that ok.

Quote:

also: "A few days earlier, Abbas surprised Enrique Zimmerman, who interviewed the PA president for Channel 2, by confessing that the Arabs' refusal to accept the partition decision was a mistake that he is trying to rectify."



correct, Abbas did say this but he has no support from this. He has over run his legal term as President in office, he is not credible or a representative of Palestinian people. He is a collaborator and says this because the fact that they didnt accept in the first place means that they have been punished and they are given even less. Nice negotiation if you dont have a choice...

in that haaretz article, did you notice they talk about political prisoners. Palestine has one israel soldier, Israel has thousands of Palestinians - often there without charge in indefinite adminstrative detention. Of those prisoners that were released, many were rearrested straight afterwards and since - by way of administrative detention which allows israelis not only to keep palestinians to military law but also means they can be kept without trial or charge for renewable 6 month periods.

Quote:

two-state solution is a great way to solve this unnecessary problem that Palestinians have with Jews being back in their homeland...notice the ambiguity here, it's on purpose.




No, this isnt correct. In the end, when peace comes fully, i imagine that Israel and Palestine will be one country with autonmous regions - perhaps a joint federal system. But you cannot get there without stepping stones along the way.
Although the creation of the israeli state was wrong in the first place, it is done now and is done so under internatinoal law but that means 1947 borders should be the borders. THose borders were made the be purposefully difficult, it also gave Israel the largest proportion of agricultural land, this was clearly with the intention that expansion was going to happen, already illegal. the expansion between 1947 and 67 and up til present is all illegal. i imagine the hope would be at least to go back to 1949 armistice lines/1967 lines though in reality this probably wont happen, israel will continue and palestinian communities will resemble the bantustans of apartheid south africa. enclosed, dependent, and weak. see the map i previously posted, though with less palestine

interesting academic essay shows its not all about land, but all resources...The importance of water politics in the Israel-Palestine conflict

There is truth to what KMt is saying about all the converts. It is a weak case at best if you say those exact descendants of jews exiled from palestine by romans have a right to steal land back but the case is even weaker with the fact that those are not the majority of people moving to israel in great numbers.

it is often not known aswell that some jews are treated differently that other jews, there is almost a caste system - with palestinians on the bottom of course. Remember that 20% at least of israel is palestinian or "arab israeli".

Some interesting people to check out........


Noam Chomsky  - anything - his "book the fateful triangle" is very interesting.
Norman Finkelstein -


both jewish-american academics on this issue


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: Tipote]
    #22600540 - 12/01/15 06:30 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

well, i don't wish to defend Israel's abuses. you obviously have educated yourself more than i have on the conflict. i'm glad we can agree to some measure, that we think there shouldn't be ANY fighting...that's pretty cool.

Edited by akira_akuma (12/01/15 06:58 PM)

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OfflineTipote
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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: akira_akuma] * 3
    #22600585 - 12/01/15 06:39 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
well, i don't wish to defend Israel's abuses. you obviously have educated yourself more than i have on the conflict. i'm glad we can agree to some measure, that we think there should be ANY fighting...that's pretty cool.




do you mean shouldN'T be ANY fighting right?? because yeh man we can agree on that!

Yeh i did a degree in this shit though and i seem to care about it alot because not many others in mainstream discussion seem to really. or its easily swept under the carpet. or buried with misinformation.

enjoying the discussion, thank you


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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: Tipote]
    #22603453 - 12/02/15 10:15 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


I think that would be nice but realistically that won't happen. Many Israeli Jews however have been leaving Israel and going back to places like Germany, where their families originally were based.

i agree with akira that Israelis can stay if they want to work with palestinians. Just as in post-apartheid south africa, Mandela did not kick the whites out, he said that they should stay so we can rebuild the country together and live in harmony. There are now many Jewish groups working for Palestinian right and this is only rising. The racist colonial thinkers of Israel may seem to be stronger but are just increasingly isolated.





Hey man, you never know, they tried to find a homeland in Africa and got ran out of there, I guess the only difference here is the UN backing them. It just a religious-based imperialism move and that's the truth behind that state. Mandela only did that because it was part of the deal he was against imperialism in South Africa before he was imprisoned.

Quote:


There is truth to what KMt is saying about all the converts. It is a weak case at best if you say those exact descendants of jews exiled from palestine by romans have a right to steal land back but the case is even weaker with the fact that those are not the majority of people moving to israel in great numbers.

it is often not known aswell that some jews are treated differently that other jews, there is almost a caste system - with palestinians on the bottom of course. Remember that 20% at least of israel is palestinian or "arab israeli".




But the Israelites by blood have a God-given right to that land, they were there alongside their ethnic cousins, the Arabs. Alot of groups there, unheard and mostly unknown are the people who don't have any outlet to the media, local and international.


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Edited by KMt (12/02/15 06:29 PM)

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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: KMt]
    #22621116 - 12/06/15 01:10 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)



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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: Tipote]
    #22625502 - 12/07/15 12:10 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)



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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: Tipote]
    #22626478 - 12/07/15 04:33 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
https://www.facebook.com/DaysofPalestine/videos/1833437290216331/




Evil people man I swear.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: KMt] * 1
    #22626564 - 12/07/15 04:50 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KMt said:
Quote:


There is truth to what KMt is saying about all the converts. It is a weak case at best if you say those exact descendants of jews exiled from palestine by romans have a right to steal land back but the case is even weaker with the fact that those are not the majority of people moving to israel in great numbers.

it is often not known aswell that some jews are treated differently that other jews, there is almost a caste system - with palestinians on the bottom of course. Remember that 20% at least of israel is palestinian or "arab israeli".




But the Israelites by blood have a God-given right to that land, they were there alongside their ethnic cousins, the Arabs. Alot of groups there, unheard and mostly unknown are the people who don't have any outlet to the media, local and international.





No one has god-given rights to anything, especially land.


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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: airclay]
    #22626591 - 12/07/15 04:55 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

KMt said:
Quote:


There is truth to what KMt is saying about all the converts. It is a weak case at best if you say those exact descendants of jews exiled from palestine by romans have a right to steal land back but the case is even weaker with the fact that those are not the majority of people moving to israel in great numbers.

it is often not known aswell that some jews are treated differently that other jews, there is almost a caste system - with palestinians on the bottom of course. Remember that 20% at least of israel is palestinian or "arab israeli".




But the Israelites by blood have a God-given right to that land, they were there alongside their ethnic cousins, the Arabs. Alot of groups there, unheard and mostly unknown are the people who don't have any outlet to the media, local and international.





No one has god-given rights to anything, especially land.




Yes they do, every ethnic family group have their alloted land. You'll see eventually.


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Invisibleairclay
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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: KMt] * 1
    #22626631 - 12/07/15 05:03 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KMt said:
Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

KMt said:
Quote:


There is truth to what KMt is saying about all the converts. It is a weak case at best if you say those exact descendants of jews exiled from palestine by romans have a right to steal land back but the case is even weaker with the fact that those are not the majority of people moving to israel in great numbers.

it is often not known aswell that some jews are treated differently that other jews, there is almost a caste system - with palestinians on the bottom of course. Remember that 20% at least of israel is palestinian or "arab israeli".




But the Israelites by blood have a God-given right to that land, they were there alongside their ethnic cousins, the Arabs. Alot of groups there, unheard and mostly unknown are the people who don't have any outlet to the media, local and international.





No one has god-given rights to anything, especially land.




Yes they do, every ethnic family group have their alloted land. You'll see eventually.





Nah, you miss my point. You can't use "god-granted" as a legal claim to things.

I mostly agree with your before points and def stand w Palestine. Let me not confuse you, this type of claim is just my personal pet peave.


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Edited by airclay (12/07/15 05:06 PM)

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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: airclay] * 1
    #22627286 - 12/07/15 07:20 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I mostly agree with your before points and def stand w Palestine. Let me not confuse you, this type of claim is just my personal pet peave.




Quote:

Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by the European Union, Canada, Israel, Egypt, Japan, and the United States. Australia and the United Kingdom have designated the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization. The organization is banned in Jordan.




Quote:

The Hamas party won the Palestinian legislative elections on 25 January 2006...




you DO support a terrorism! I fucking knew it! the proof is in da pudding...


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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: airclay]
    #22627927 - 12/07/15 09:41 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

KMt said:
Quote:

airclay said:
Quote:

KMt said:
Quote:


There is truth to what KMt is saying about all the converts. It is a weak case at best if you say those exact descendants of jews exiled from palestine by romans have a right to steal land back but the case is even weaker with the fact that those are not the majority of people moving to israel in great numbers.

it is often not known aswell that some jews are treated differently that other jews, there is almost a caste system - with palestinians on the bottom of course. Remember that 20% at least of israel is palestinian or "arab israeli".




But the Israelites by blood have a God-given right to that land, they were there alongside their ethnic cousins, the Arabs. Alot of groups there, unheard and mostly unknown are the people who don't have any outlet to the media, local and international.





No one has god-given rights to anything, especially land.




Yes they do, every ethnic family group have their alloted land. You'll see eventually.





Nah, you miss my point. You can't use "god-granted" as a legal claim to things.

I mostly agree with your before points and def stand w Palestine. Let me not confuse you, this type of claim is just my personal pet peave.




The Jews used that very claim though. Are you saying that that works for some and not others?


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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: hostileuniverse]
    #22628005 - 12/07/15 09:59 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

i agree with airclay. no one can use that kind of claim. thats what causes all these fights in the first place.


Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

I mostly agree with your before points and def stand w Palestine. Let me not confuse you, this type of claim is just my personal pet peave.




Quote:

Hamas is designated as a terrorist organization by the European Union, Canada, Israel, Egypt, Japan, and the United States. Australia and the United Kingdom have designated the military wing of Hamas, the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, as a terrorist organization. The organization is banned in Jordan.




Quote:

The Hamas party won the Palestinian legislative elections on 25 January 2006...




you DO support a terrorism! I fucking knew it! the proof is in da pudding...





how is that meaning anything about supporting "a terrorism"? standing with Palestine does not mean necessarily standing with Hamas. Hamas is not in control of all of Palestine. I support the resistance but it doesnt mean i support Hamas. i disagree with many of their activities. I also don't support collaborater Abbas.

But it should be clear that armed resistance is a legal right for those under illegal occupation and seige..

The EU and US would want to negotiate with Hamas, its the only way that negotiations would be given a chance. Everyone is just pressured by Israel to not touch them with a barge pole. Hostile, you said it yourself with that quote - Hamas has been elected.

If we are calling Hamas terrorists then Israel is for sure a terrorist state. But you won't accept the latter part of that i'm sure.


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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: Tipote]
    #22628777 - 12/08/15 06:09 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

how is that meaning anything about supporting "a terrorism"? standing with Palestine does not mean necessarily standing with Hamas. Hamas is not in control of all of Palestine. I support the resistance but it doesnt mean i support Hamas. i disagree with many of their activities. I also don't support collaborater Abbas.




i wonder who elected hamas? it was the palestinian people, I know you think theres a difference between the people and the govt, but when the people overwhelmingly elect such radicals, what does that say about the people you are "supporting"?


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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: hostileuniverse] * 1
    #22629564 - 12/08/15 11:10 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

hostileuniverse said:
Quote:

how is that meaning anything about supporting "a terrorism"? standing with Palestine does not mean necessarily standing with Hamas. Hamas is not in control of all of Palestine. I support the resistance but it doesnt mean i support Hamas. i disagree with many of their activities. I also don't support collaborater Abbas.




i wonder who elected hamas? it was the palestinian people, I know you think theres a difference between the people and the govt, but when the people overwhelmingly elect such radicals, what does that say about the people you are "supporting"?





again, not ALL the palestinian people voted for Hamas. Hamas, as i said before, is not in control of all Palestine.

Yes, citizens elected Hamas. Hamas won credibility because they resist the occupation and they have had a history of charitable support for the poorest of families in Gaza. This gives them credibility. They have also done despicable things for sure which is why i can say i don't like their organisation. but they were elected and do fight a legal armed resistance against illegal occupation, and seige.

Based on your logic, would you say its ok to attack people that vote for Hamas? civilians that vote for a political organisation?
What about people that vote for Bush or Obama? It kind of sounds like you are giving justifications that terrorists would give. This is the kind of justification that Israel comes out with. Double standards much?

the people of gaza are punished for electing Hamas, does that seem right to you? Even people that didn't vote for Hamas are being punished? a large proportion of the population are children.  is that ok also?


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: Tipote]
    #22629873 - 12/08/15 12:49 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

sadly, minorities are always marginalized.

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OfflineTipote
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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: akira_akuma]
    #22636208 - 12/09/15 09:27 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)



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OfflineTipote
petty crook and transvestite
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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: Tipote]
    #22662324 - 12/16/15 09:22 AM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Incitement against the Israeli Left just got a lot scarier



they are trying to crack down even on the israeli groups like Breaking the Silence which tell the truth about the occupation.

Why do so many Israelis hate Breaking the Silence?


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Edited by Tipote (12/16/15 09:25 AM)

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Offlinemarkalbob
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Re: thoughts/opinions/ramblings on Boycott Divestment and Sanctions on Israel [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #22670146 - 12/17/15 10:44 PM (8 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
Israel should be allowed to expand past the resulting diaspora's meager land allotment. they've grown quite a bit, and alot of that land was unused...no one had to fight about it. :shrug: though i don't put all the fighting on Palestine either...just alot of the fighting has to do with them not wanting to give them more land than agreed on, while there is no reason to keep land that you aren't using.

Palestinian's seem to be as much against the growth of Israel, as Israel is against their's. who wouldn't fight over that? now if Palestine could work with Israel (at this juncture) to set up some less ludicrous borders, then they both have land freed up for expansion.

i don't agree that all the land that's been expropriated by Israel should be given to them without a fight, but then again, i don't think that Palestine should be so defensive about them expanding either; especially with the rhetoric that "they've always stole the land from us, for centuries" to recruit freedom fighters. let the fighting happen diplomatically, then if Israel still insists on their operations, then there'd be set more of a reasonable precedent to say "look Israel is pushing too far".

but by now Israel is already appearing to fight an "enemy" not willing to negotiate. :shrug: how do you get around that?





er, so we can just take a large swath of Sinaloa or BC and annex it as "unused"?

That seems an odd argument at best.


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