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Israel Palestine
    #25204680 -

Wanted to test my understanding of the conflict.... is this about right?

Jews had no homeland and went from country to country being kicked out.

They went to Palestine before WW2 and made lots of money. They started buying up land.

Palestine didnt like that and tried to kick them out.

WW2 started getting its gears turning and tons of Jews fled to Palestine which gaves them backup.

Over the last 80 years Israel has slowly taken over nearly the entire country. USA has funneled enormous money into helping them do it as well.


The curveball here is that palestine has some fucked up laws. They rape little girls, treat women like shit, and kill gays / women.

So theres no real right answer to who is right / wrong.


Sound about right?

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: craftycan]
    #25205953 -

Not really.  I'm no Israel apologist, but Palestine was an ottoman possession before the Brits took over.  I don't think there has been a nation named Palestine recognized by anyone at all until 1988.

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25206005 -

Yeah Palestine has always been almost a country. But never really was. They ended being some sort of Province of a few empire but never really recognize as an official country.

I don't really know a lot about Palestine though. Or Jerusalem. It's too close to religion. I hate religion therefore I don't waste time learning about it (even though I should)


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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Patlal]
    #25206326 -

Patlal said:
Yeah Palestine has always been almost a country. But never really was. They ended being some sort of Province of a few empire but never really recognize as an official country.


Not even close.  Palestine is a geographical region in the same way that the Levant (of which it is a part) is a geographical region.  If people want to identify themselves as Palestinians and claim that they are members of a state of Palestine then that's their prerogative, but it hasn't "always been almost a country."  Even these days it's basically an umbrella term that's applied to Arabs who are effectively citizens of nowhere.

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: craftycan] * 3
    #25207197 -

You left out thousands of years of history...

For what its worth, Jerusalem was built by Ethiopians. Fortunately the Ethiopian Orthodox Church doesnt concern itself with pety land wars, they are only concerned with their Faith.

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: craftycan] * 1
    #25207300 -

People can go back and forth forever over historic claims to land but it's a futile endeavor because pretty much all land in human history has been conquered over and over again by different groups of people.

However over the past decades and continuing today, Israel conquered East Jerusalem and the west bank during the six day war. It was supposed to be a brief military occupation but decades later Israeli settlers are claiming land for themselves. Then you have the Gaza strip, which is considered by many to be an open air concentration camp.

It seems like the whole situation is a never ending cycle of violence. Whenever people in the West Bank/Gaza use violence in response to their situation the Israel responds in turn and the cycle continues.

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Skellies] * 1
    #25207644 -

austothehun said:
People can go back and forth forever over historic claims to land but it's a futile endeavor because pretty much all land in human history has been conquered over and over again by different groups of people.




Pretty much. Human beings thinking they own the Earth is ridiculous if you ask me. I really don't get where men get all these big ideas that they are in charge of everything. Every baby is born naked, and we all die with nothing. Humble yourselves.

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Ran-D]
    #25208111 -

Ran-D said:
You left out thousands of years of history...

For what its worth, Jerusalem was built by Ethiopians. Fortunately the Ethiopian Orthodox Church doesnt concern itself with pety land wars, they are only concerned with their Faith.


The Ethiopian Orthodox Church didn't exist until several thousands of years after Jerusalem was built...I'd also have to double check but I'm pretty sure that Jerusalem was built by Canaanites.

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Skellies]
    #25208149 -

austothehun said:
However over the past decades and continuing today, Israel conquered East Jerusalem and the west bank during the six day war. It was supposed to be a brief military occupation but decades later Israeli settlers are claiming land for themselves. Then you have the Gaza strip, which is considered by many to be an open air concentration camp.


Gaza was supposed to be a temporary evacuation site during the war in 1948 so that Muslims wouldn't be caught in the massacre that the ALA promised to visit upon the Jews.  Then the ALA lost the war and the Arab world basically declared it a tough titty.

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: chibiabos]
    #25208531 -

chibiabos said:
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church didn't exist until several thousands of years after Jerusalem was built.


Yes but Ethiopian Monks have been present in Jerusalem for thousands of years, long before the church existed.

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Ran-D] * 1
    #25208552 -

And long before monastic orders existed, apparently.  :rolleyes:

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: chibiabos]
    #25208605 -

chibiabos said:
Patlal said:
Yeah Palestine has always been almost a country. But never really was. They ended being some sort of Province of a few empire but never really recognize as an official country.


Not even close.  Palestine is a geographical region in the same way that the Levant (of which it is a part) is a geographical region.  If people want to identify themselves as Palestinians and claim that they are members of a state of Palestine then that's their prerogative, but it hasn't "always been almost a country."  Even these days it's basically an umbrella term that's applied to Arabs who are effectively citizens of nowhere.


I didn't know that. Israel and Palestine are not my strong suit. I'm not even sure if I know more/less about the subject than the average person.


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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Patlal]
    #25208670 -

the 6 day war was simply a land grab that they tried to fig leaf with a false claim that the arabs started it. They didn't and isreal attacked a us ship tried to sink it and kill all aboard despite knowing full well it was american. Good thing we have allies like that


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Skellies]
    #25208890 -

austothehun said:
People can go back and forth forever over historic claims to land but it's a futile endeavor because pretty much all land in human history has been conquered over and over again by different groups of people.

However over the past decades and continuing today, Israel conquered East Jerusalem and the west bank during the six day war. It was supposed to be a brief military occupation but decades later Israeli settlers are claiming land for themselves.


The post WWII United Nations charter says that you can no longer take land by force.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Israel is the only country that's violated this agreement (unless you count the US overthrowing foreign Governments).


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25208925 -

At least the Russians have the decency to establish puppet states.

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: chibiabos]
    #25208991 -

Which countries are you referring to?  Iraq?  Libya?  Panama?


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25209389 -

Auto-Summary
A discussion on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in Manhattan six months ago was one-sided and eye-opening, highlighting the complexity of the issue. The history of Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is well-documented, but Wikipedia's reliability is questionable due to potential censorship. Recent events include 61 Palestinians killed and 2,000 injured, with Israel accusing Hamas of using "kite bombs" in attacks. Despite the presence of independent journalists, their reports are often dismissed. The United States supports Israel due to longstanding ties, but critics argue that influential Evangelicals push for actions that could harm peace. Actress Natalie Portman, an Israeli-American citizen, criticized Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's re-election and the government's actions, leading to Israel's cancellation of an award ceremony in her honor.

COMPLICATED

There Are Three Sides To Every Story

Your Story

My Story

The Truth...

I attended a "Talk/Discussion" on the subject in Manhattan about six months ago. It was extremely one sided unfortunately but very eye opening. It was quite disgusting actually... I've also read several books on the matter over time but like the "discussion" that I attended they were on the conflict more then the history/development of Palestine/Israel. I really don't feel comfortable relying on Wikipedia too often due to the controversy regarding some of it's editors being allowed to edit/censor facts/information but they do have what appears to be a comprehensive breakdown of the history of Israel and the conflict between Israel and Palestine... Again, this Wikipedia so there may be some "fluff" in the information.

The History of Israel

The History of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict

As far as current events go I believe 61 Palestinians were killed and close to two thousand were injured. Israel claimed Hamas used "Kite Bombs" to attack Israelis. Independent press were present and no one could support any of this. When you think about it, how can a kite become airborne while carrying a bomb? How do you release the bomb once the kite is airborne and over your target? I don't know, maybe I'm thinking too simplistically. Yes, Hamas is definitely present but its "terrorist soldiers" weren't intermingling with the Palestinian protestors. Again, independent news reporters would have reported all of this. They're not there to condemn Israel, they're there trying to get the facts straight, contrary to the bullshit we're spoon fed regarding their presence.

In general, I believe the world generally "tolerates" Israels actions because of U.S. support of Israel. This support has been long standing, dating back to the United Nations land split. Today, we have a bunch of lunatic evangelicals who directly influence the President... Each Wednesday a group of them "hands on pray" over Trump in the oval office... These same sick individuals consider the recognition of Jerusalem as an important step in fulfilling scripture. There are a bunch of them... My favorite is Paula White... She's Trump's "God Whisperer"... She had an adulterous affair with the infamous Benny Hinn, another prosperity gospel preacher who heals people of all sorts of illnesses by touching their foreheads. Anyway, after the affair was disclosed Paula White told her parish "God has forgiven me" instead of asking her parish for forgiveness. She also told her parish that God told her to tell them they needed to give the church one month's salary. There's so much more on White but I just wanted to give you some idea who is "spiritually" advising our President. Then there's Robert Jeffress... He's on Fox quite often. He said now that Jerusalem has been recognized the next step is to destroy a particular Muslim Mosque located on a particular mountain and erect a Jewish church/temple in it's place. Again, this is important in order to speed up the second coming of Christ. At least according to him... This is what we're dealing with here. Loony tunes hell bent on fulfilling scripture regardless of who it might hurt. I'm being serious, this is what they're up to... How can there be peace when whack jobs are plotting to demolish a holy Mosque?

Two days ago China warned Israel to stop killing Palestinians...

Unrelated but Related... Actress Natalie Portman, who is an Israeli-American citizen, became very outsspoken about her views regarding the Israeli government, specifically Benjamin Netanyahu. Portman was critical of Netanyahu’s reelection in 2015, stating that she was disappointed and confused about how this could happen and said she found many of the things he said racist. In November of 2017, Portman learned she was receiving the Genesis Prize for 2018, which includes $2 million dollars. The following April, Portman decided that she wouldn't attend the award ceremony due to events that occurred in Israel at the time. She came right out and said that she didn't feel comfortable attending public events there. Israel quickly cancelled the ceremony in response. The infamous Rabbi Shmuley, a guy who even Israeli Rabbis distances themselves from started off slowly, "politely" criticizing Portman but eventually it escalated and he came out on Fox one night and called Portman an anti-Semite. A Jew calling an American Jew an anti-Semite. The one thing I've noticed is anytime anyone challenges/criticizes Israel in any way, they're an anti-Semite... Anyway, it backfired on the Rabbi completely stopped his campaign against Portman. He's a very flamboyant individual... Tons of books, ran for congress, writes for Breitbart, friends with Michael Jackson... What a guy... Anyway, Portman later tried to clarify that she was not boycotting Israel. She just said she did not want to appear to be endorsing Netanyahu and the Zionist government because Netanyahu was scheduled to give a speech at the same ceremony.

Sorry for the rant...


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personal note: "It’s fair to say I’m stepping out on a limb, but I am on the edge and that’s where it happens.”

Edited by Nikon Addict (05/17/18 04:53 AM)

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Nikon Addict] * 2
    #25209430 -

Israel is really the only place in the Middle East with modern western values. Islam has some really fucked up values and I'll take Judaism every time. That being said, the current government of Israel is pure evil and Israel has been engaging in war crimes for years now. They should be sanctioned. The citizens of Israel need to vote these monsters out of office. It's getting easier for reasonable people to think that Israel gets what it deserves.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: koods] * 1
    #25209654 -

Current tensions are due to many factors.  But most recently...

The 1990s the peace process collapsed into the Second Intifada in 2000 (aka second Palestinian uprising over Israeli occupation).  In 2005 Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip, thus ending the Second Intifada.  Quickly thereafter, an Iranian backed Islamist group named Hamas took over governance of the Gaza Strip.  It is very important to note that Hamas took over due to an election, due to a confluence of factors Palestinians elected Hamas to govern them in Gaza.  However, Hamas does not see eye-to-eye with the Palestinian Authority (PA), the government that controls the West Bank.  Hamas is quite reactionary and is labeled a terrorist organization by many countries, including Israel and the USA.  Hamas has used violence many times in the past against Israel including bombs and firing rockets at Israel from Gaza.

What Hamas does is less important than why they do it...Hamas gets tons of support from Iran.  This is the major point of the conflict if you look at the big picture.  Both Iran and Israel are vying for control and influence in the Middle East.  Hamas is the proxy for Iran, Israel knows this and will try to do what it can to crush them...for Middle East influence.  Iran, knowing the significant nuclear arsenal Israel possesses (which they weren't supposed to possess; google Mordechai Vanunu for more on Israel illegally creating WMD's in the 90's) and their significant military power due to US backing, see's backing Hamas as essential to holding any kind of power in the region...essential to having power over Israel

The Palestinian people are caught in the middle.  Both forms of their government, Hamas in Gaza and the PA in the West Bank, believe they are the only true form of government, ensuring the Palestinians are split and no unified peace process can occur.  The Israeli government has gone significantly to the right in the past 10-15 years and see's most Palestinian civilians in Gaza as in cahoots with Hamas.  Propaganda is fraught on both sides.  Neither is an excuse to murder civilians.  Neither is an excuse to treat Gaza like a fucking concentration camp.  Settlements and Israeli occupation aside (everyone knows about the settlements and the Israeli authorities restricting Palestinian movement) ...Gaza is a proxy war, and the US moving the embassy to Jerusalem was a spark that gets Palestinians fired up, protesting, and getting killed.  The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) have been given guidance on what Hamas weapons look like and, due to Hamas having used children or elderly people in the past as suicide bombers, IDF snipers have been killing suspect children and elderly people at the fence that confines Gaza.  Really just anyone they view as suspect...which included 60 people on Monday.  Don't ask me how that 8-month old was viewed as a threat :shrug:


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"It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong."

Francois-Marie Arouet

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Re: Israel Palestine [Re: Mr. Bojangles] * 2
    #25209885 -

Excellent post Mr. Bojangles... From what I understand Hamas rise to power was the result of the corruption that existed under Yasser Arafat. The Palestinians were given a lot of money in order to help them develop their so called state/nation. Instead of helping his people Arafat and others lived large at the expense of their people. The Palestinians elected Hamas in response to the corruption and here we find ourselves today.

I don't know how I feel about Iran at this point to be honest. There's so much conflicting information out there. Here in the U.S. the media is demonizing Iran constantly on behalf of Israel yet Europe and other nations have said they intend ignore any sanctions and continue trading with them. (See my thread: Europe to ditch US dollar in payments for Iranian oil – source)    I've come across quite a bit of information claiming Saudi Arabia supports terrorism. They're an extremely oppressive society yet they remain one of our strongest allies. I'm not trying to change the subject, I'm just trying to quickly point this out. I don't get it... Thanks for sharing your view, it helps me understand the bigger picture a little better. I'm gonna look up Mordechai Vanunu right now...


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personal note: "It’s fair to say I’m stepping out on a limb, but I am on the edge and that’s where it happens.”

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