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Re: Transgenders in Sports... Should They Play? [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #24458819 -

CookieCrumbs said:
XLCaps said:
It honestly annoys the fuck out of me that with this concept of being trans, people accept they are different and insist on changing it, yet want everyone else to tell them they are normal and shouldn't be treated differently. If so many transfolk didn't expect so much out of society, more than the average person, then people wouldn't get so pissy about it. Anyone can say "I was this but I need to be this." Whatever, don't care. It's no different than anyone else because everyon has problems. Not every black or native person goes off about genocide or slavery and to me the transpeople that insist on this special treatment are no different. A proud trans person shouldn't be offended if someone thinks they're a man and they shouldn't shy from telling people.




First of all I think most people have high expectations with other people.. That's why most of us have an air of perpetual disappointment.

Second of all... That's kinda contradictory. I mean let's say that one of these kids did transition pre puberty. They might have slightly masculine characteristics, like a masculine nose or jawline, plenty of natural born women have those characteristics too... So the only way you would really know is if they told you. Why would they tell you if you then treat them differently? why should they be proud? you know alot of the "annoyingness" in the LGBT movement comes from false pride?


I honestly wish we could treat all people like people because unless they're a child molesting kitten murdering ISIS piece of shit they are still a person.


I agree though, that children shouldn't be transitioning until the DSM or whatever psychiatric guidelines they use these days has a solid guideline and solid science for it. Right now we don't even really have such a thing for adults. We can't have that for children.



Well there are the WPATH standards of care
https://s3.amazonaws.com/amo_hub_content/Association140/files/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH%20(2)(1).pdf
which is TRYING to be the guidlines for proper care in adults
However, it is not fully recognized, but most of the things in it
are recognized (for instance my insurance pretty much covers
everything listed in the guide EXCEPT for facial devirilization)

Many women have features that look "transy"---one girl in my webcam chat
has a bigger chin than me...and the age you start  at doesn't even necessarily reflect whether you can pass or not...in the 80s, you had to pass 100% in deep stealth(meaning your sexual partner couldn't tell) and this was with girls starting as late as 31...in the 80s it was pass or kill yourself or be killed. I got lucky enough where once I have facial devirilization I would bet confidently no one would know I'm trans, and in the 80s they didn't even have facial reconstruction. The guidlines for transitioning in the 80s seem like bonkers, inhumane CRAZY bullshit that led to many many suicides or broken people compare to now.

It's really amazing when I tell someone I'm trans and I see their jaw drop because they didn't know. Before the moment I tell them, to them there is literally no difference between me and a ciswoman. My goal is to never ever bring up my transness again.


--------------------

"I'm looking at you looking at it"

SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion



Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book

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Re: Transgenders in Sports... Should They Play? [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #24458849 -

Well I see no reason to bring it up. You can be proud of yourself but that doesn't mean you have to tell people who you were forced to be. I don't tell people my mother made me a hyper paranoid anxious mess by constantly telling me people were evil and would do terrible things to me to the point I had to start therapy in elementary school because I had such frequent and severe panic attacks that I couldn't eat for months. I tell people I'm really close to, people I really trust and really want to open up to, but I see absolutely no reason to dig into those old wounds and bare myself to judgement just because other people think they are entitled to know or that I should be proud of it.


You see, we also seem to not understand what pride is anymore. Society seems to think pride is all about screaming your personal business when honestly most people don't give a shit and don't want to know. In reality pride is being secure enough in yourself to not need to tell anyone your secrets and don't need anyone to pat you on the back and justify your identity or the validity of your struggles.


That's kinda what's contradictory. Because that show of "pride" is usually just a form of insecurity.


I can be happy with who I am and respect myself for who I am, understanding that who I was in the past has help make me who I am, without anyone else knowing it.


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          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:

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Re: Transgenders in Sports... Should They Play? [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #24458875 -

Apollyphelion said:
Well there are the WPATH standards of care
https://s3.amazonaws.com/amo_hub_content/Association140/files/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH%20(2)(1).pdf
which is TRYING to be the guidlines for proper care in adults
However, it is not fully recognized, but most of the things in it
are recognized (for instance my insurance pretty much covers
everything listed in the guide EXCEPT for facial devirilization)




Specifically speaking of identifying whether a person is trans or has some other issue. There is no guidelines for that. In that PDF and anything else I've read none makes a distinction between gender dysphoria and being transgender. You can have gender dysphoria and not be trans.

The established treatment for gender dysphoria is hormones and potentially surgery when that should not be. The 'symptoms' of a transgender person are symptoms of gender dysphoria. They could be, like me, androgynous and not realize it. I am certain now that I would forever regret it if I'd gone through transition. But as a teen, and in my early 20s, for all I knew I could have been trans. And no doctor I ever talked to would have been able to figure that out for me. Some absolutely would have pushed me for transition, because I do fit the symptoms, to a T.


The lack of standards here means we're literally making guinea pigs out of people. Only time will tell how often we fuck up by labelling people with gender dysphoria, people who are discontent with their gender, as transgender. And treat them as transgender. Only to find out much later, ya know they had childhood psychological trauma due to sexual abuse or something like that or were just simply lost without an identity that really meant anything to them and decided to latch on to the idea that they are something different and that is what their different is.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:

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Re: Transgenders in Sports... Should They Play? [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #24458914 -

CookieCrumbs said:
Apollyphelion said:
Well there are the WPATH standards of care
https://s3.amazonaws.com/amo_hub_content/Association140/files/Standards%20of%20Care%20V7%20-%202011%20WPATH%20(2)(1).pdf
which is TRYING to be the guidlines for proper care in adults
However, it is not fully recognized, but most of the things in it
are recognized (for instance my insurance pretty much covers
everything listed in the guide EXCEPT for facial devirilization)




Specifically speaking of identifying whether a person is trans or has some other issue. There is no guidelines for that. In that PDF and anything else I've read none makes a distinction between gender dysphoria and being transgender. You can have gender dysphoria and not be trans.

The established treatment for gender dysphoria is hormones and potentially surgery when that should not be. The 'symptoms' of a transgender person are symptoms of gender dysphoria. They could be, like me, androgynous and not realize it. I am certain now that I would forever regret it if I'd gone through transition. But as a teen, and in my early 20s, for all I knew I could have been trans. And no doctor I ever talked to would have been able to figure that out for me. Some absolutely would have pushed me for transition, because I do fit the symptoms, to a T.


The lack of standards here means we're literally making guinea pigs out of people. Only time will tell how often we fuck up by labelling people with gender dysphoria, people who are discontent with their gender, as transgender. And treat them as transgender. Only to find out much later, ya know they had childhood psychological trauma due to sexual abuse or something like that or were just simply lost without an identity that really meant anything to them and decided to latch on to the idea that they are something different and that is what their different is.



I'd argue that having Gender dysphoria MEANS you are trans, and then whether or not the level you pursue transistion is now the case. Some pursue transistion as far as androgony and to some extent retain cis privlege. I was able to relieve my dysphoria for years in a way where people would still see me as cis, now my visual cues of dypshoric relief soilidly puts me into the trans category.

In a way I'm one of the unlucky ones, my dysphoric relief requires
the entire transistional regime, from facial to vaginoplasty.

I read of a transwoman who was passing and fulltime until the age of 30, started in her teens, and only started to consider hormones because her hairline was starting to receed. Totally exempt from any medical treatment, yet 100% trans.

I also think if we are talking psychological guidelines,
I think with tranmen diagnosis and transwoman diagonosis would have some differences...for instance I met a transman who was saying he thinks most super butch woman are in denial or unaware transmen, partly due how it's
more socially acceptable for a women to visually relieve gender dysphoria, and it isn't socially acceptable for a man to visually relieve dysphoria...the closets for transmen and transwoman are different as is the ways they step out and how far.


--------------------

"I'm looking at you looking at it"

SUBSCRIBE TO MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL PLEASE! www.youtube.com/apollyphelion



Creator of the World's Worst Comic Book

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Re: Transgenders in Sports... Should They Play? [Re: Apollyphelion]
    #24458966 -

Gender dysphoria simply means being distressed and unhappy about one's gender. It doesn't mean they're the wrong gender, it just means they're unhappy about it.


In an age where people feel they lack purpose and solid identity, where they feel lost and overlooked more often than not, I would not take someone's word for it that they feel like they should be another gender. No I don't judge, if they feel like that I'm sure they do, the thing I think we miss is just because they feel like that does not mean they are that. Human feelings and opinions are suppose to evolve, to drift with the currents and wash with the tides. It's not unheard of for someone to start or even go through a complete transition and realize they made a mistake.

I dont know about the WPATH but I'm confident most psychologists and medical professionals are not following solid guidelines that differentiates between other mental illness, general identity crisis, and transgender or gender dysphoria if that's what you want to call it.


If a doctor is going to start giving someone drugs that come with risks they should actually have a well established diagnosis before proceeding to treatment.
Unfortunately the medical community tends to have a shoot first and ask questions later mentality.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:

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Re: Transgenders in Sports... Should They Play? [Re: Crystal G]
    #24458997 -

I dont particularly see the need to fill the nitch for trans athletes, they certainly should not compete with women, either they can compete with men or form their own leagues.

As someone mentioned earlier, there arent many trans people and its not reasonable for various communities to form trans leagues.

Compete with men or dont compete, essentially, in a larger city there could be trans leagues as well but I dont view this as worth taxpayer money to be a public project (as sports teams often are).

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Re: Transgenders in Sports... Should They Play? [Re: Repertoire89] * 1
    #24459035 -

Some cities would pass a public funded transgender sports league.

I think public sports leagues should be available that are open to everyone though.


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          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:

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Re: Transgenders in Sports... Should They Play? [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #24459058 -

If San Fran or Boulder wants a trans league thats their prerogative, I just dont think trans should be competing with women, or that any town should be moved to fund such a project without their say.

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Re: Transgenders in Sports... Should They Play? [Re: larry.fisherman]
    #24460863 -

XLCaps said:
Usually not? It's always abuse. You obviously don't understand kids and just want to play devil's advocate because it relates to how you live your life. There is no validation, only fucked up people who shouldn't have kids. Every single living person at some point crosses the idea in their mind of, "What if I'm gay? What's it like being gay? What's it like to be the opposite sex?" Normal thoughts. Kids are dumb and influential, and most of all they need the time to think about their dumb thoughts instead of being validated for having them and posing themselves a question. I wanted to be a doctor, and a firefighter. My parents never told me I was either of those things. Big decisions need only be personal and made by an adult.

But where do the mentally and physically abused children belond in the matter? Where they belong. :cookiemonster:

It honestly annoys the fuck out of me that with this concept of being trans, people accept they are different and insist on changing it, yet want everyone else to tell them they are normal and shouldn't be treated differently. If so many transfolk didn't expect so much out of society, more than the average person, then people wouldn't get so pissy about it. Anyone can say "I was this but I need to be this." Whatever, don't care. It's no different than anyone else because everyon has problems. Not every black or native person goes off about genocide or slavery and to me the transpeople that insist on this special treatment are no different. A proud trans person shouldn't be offended if someone thinks they're a man and they shouldn't shy from telling people.

If someone was a man they should play with the men, anyone else who wants to roid out with hormones should find leagues that support steroid use and play with them. If you're gonna use roids it probably doesn't make much a difference if you're a man or a woman. Unless you're talking contact sports like football or even MMA. If you're different then be different, don't expect people to respond well when you ask for special treatment, even if you see it as "fitting in."



Mmmm, I'd say it depends.

I used to think that way, but then I saw the documentary about Jazz (the boy who started wearing girl's dresses at age 7 and started hormone blockers at like 12 or 13 to transition into female puberty), and supposedly from age 4 she was completely obsessed with the idea of being a girl. So much that her mother caught her attempting to saw off her penis in the shower with a pair of scissors. She saw her penis as something that was so disgusting, that she had to get rid of it.

With a situation like Jazz, where even after years of therapy she doesn't start getting better until she starts wearing opposite sex clothes, then yeah I can see the case being made for it.

But if some 4 year old is like "I wanna be a girl!" in passing, and you actually pay attention to that and make the steps to turn them into one, then yeah. Total child abuse.

Edited by Crystal G (07/06/17 01:49 AM)

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Re: Transgenders in Sports... Should They Play? [Re: Crystal G] * 3
    #24461807 -

So the kid tried to cut his penis off with scissors and the first thought is "This is normal behavior he just wants to be a she" and not "This kid needs serious mental help."

Hmm

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Re: Transgenders in Sports... Should They Play? [Re: Crystal G]
    #24461869 -

Crystal G said:
...
In an ideal world, male to female transgenders should compete with other male to female transgenders, and female to male transgenders would compete with other female to male transgenders. But unfortunately, this is clearly not possible, since in many schools throughout the United States, there will often be only 1, MAYBE 2, transgender students at all.

What do you think should happen to transgenders in sports, should they play against men or women?



What is astonishing to me is how many transgender individuals get involved in competitive sports specifically
if the option were given, would have avoided phys ed in school all together
it was shit like pushups and running laps; could do that on my own time
:rofl:

transitioning male to female, compete against men
be thankful for an opportunity that other women are not afforded

transitioning female to male, compete against men
be thankful for an opportunity other trans individuals are not afforded

:cookiemonster:

Reflecting on the school level,
would be more concerned with having a private locker room after class
than with a personal league

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Re: Transgenders in Sports... Should They Play? [Re: PreparationH]
    #24461870 -

PreparationH said:
So the kid tried to cut his penis off with scissors and the first thought is "This is normal behavior he just wants to be a she" and not "This kid needs serious mental help."

Hmm



Did you miss the part about there being years of therapy???


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:

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