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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Buckthorn]
    #22957104 -

UILECHUMHACHTACH said:
Markos what do you believe or what are your thoughts about faith as survival?


Sorry for the late response, but I'm not sure what you're asking. I can say from my understanding that the Instinctual Center as described by Georg Gurdjieff (which includes aspects of the Indian Muladhara chakra) entail what G. called "the Moving Center," and that survival as a basic instinct, requiring action more than faith (which is a contemplative attitude).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22996086 -

Nobody needs faith in anything outside of themselves....  But faith in yourself is very powerful and liberating.


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www.soulremedy.org

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: travsha]
    #22996947 -

travsha said:
Nobody needs faith in anything outside of themselves....  But faith in yourself is very powerful and liberating.


You see, that is completely untrue on a conventional level of understanding. I have a limited understanding of what my self actually is, but the metaphorical boundary of it imperceptibly merges into God. It's like my self is a bubble submerged in an ocean, but my awareness is at the center of the bubble and I'm unaware of its boundary. It's like looking up into a clear blue sky. You can see only so far into the sky, and you cannot see where the troposphere becomes the stratosphere and where that becomes mesosphere, thermosphere and exosphere where atmosphere merges into space. At some point the atmosphere merges into deep space and is no longer characterized by a molecular density that can rightly be called an atmosphere.

Similarly, my self operates at various levels, different chakra levels. I am VERY aware of the 'atmosphere' of my lower, earthly chakras, but I'm less aware of the 'atmosphere' of my higher chakras which are increasingly etherial and spacious. At some point my self merges into the immensity of the cosmos, Cosmic Consciousness. The faith I have is directed to the Cosmic Domain which, while juxtaposed to the most etherial levels of my self, that in all honesty I must regard it as "wholly other." The Cosmic may be 'me,' but it is so removed and so unconscious to my dense, earthly sense of self, that it is psychotic to say that I have faith in myself. No. I have faith in Cosmic Consciousness, Christ Consciousness, which proceeds from the Mystery that people call God. It is a Transcendental Reality from which you and I derive. We are not self-generated and eternal, except  perhaps at a level 'out there' so removed from immediate experience that we cannot in all honesty say that it's 'me' OR 'you.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22998768 -

Consider the lack of discernible boundaries of the self may indicate that it is not really there. When you look for the self, it can't be found. Just an endless stream of thoughts. It's tempting to say "well, there must be a thinker of the thoughts". This "thinker" is a thought in itself and just because sentence makes sense linguistically doesn't mean it is a reality. Could the self just be an illusion produced by our brain? I tend to think so.


There has been a lot to digest in this thread. But one recurring statement has been that faith has the power to change reality. As if you believe in something, then it becomes fact. --- This is ridiculous. There are billions of people holding billions of different beliefs, most of which contradict each other. How could two contradicting beliefs come true? Also if I started believing that a quarter can fit through a whole the size of a dime, does it then become a fact? What if someone believes the opposite? Come on now.... Lets let the facts dictate our beliefs, not the other way around.

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Leviticus969]
    #22999080 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
You need to switch your definitions for Belief and Faith. I have Faith, but I do not have Beliefs. Faith is an open, contemplative attitude towards Transcendental Reality which cannot be conceptualized, hence it cannot be understood intellectually. Beliefs are ideas, concepts pertaining to a Mystery which cannot be understood. So Beliefs tend to be dogmatic formulae that are adopted as being true, and such dogma were created by others with an agenda which included a uniform agreement amongst Believers. Those who questioned the accuracy or truthfulness of dogmas were cast out because their doubts caused others to doubt. The uniformity was part of an agenda which sets an 'us' against a 'them,' based upon dogmatic Beliefs. If all peoples agreed to unify on the basis of Faith, there might be unity among the various religions of the world, but it is the different Beliefs which set everyone apart.


I couldn't agree more with this post, especially the bolded text.

viktor said:
The only thing I have faith in is that other people are conscious. Everything else I either know or don't believe.


I agree with this.

6Silent9Knight6 said:
You ever hear that saying? You can do anything if you believe in yourself? It's the same as having faith in yourself. And guess what? Placebo pills are given to people for this very purpose. When you believe in something strongly enough, it can come true. And does anyone ever know if they're going to succeed or fail in life? Truth is, 99% of the population doesn't know shit. It takes faith in anything in order to walk a path in any direction.

So... You have faith in God? You have faith in the Devil? You have faith in yourself? Whatever you believe, it'll manifest to your liking. Choose what you want to believe wisely.


This, however, is also incredibly accurate. The mind can manifest miraculous experience when it's convinced itself on a deep enough subconscious level. The Placebo Effect is evidence of this. I recommend "The Power of Your Subconscious Mind" to those who haven't read it yet.


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #22999773 -

Quote:
You see, that is completely untrue on a conventional level of understanding. I have a limited understanding of what my self actually is, but the metaphorical boundary of it imperceptibly merges into God. It's like my self is a bubble submerged in an ocean, but my awareness is at the center of the bubble and I'm unaware of its boundary. It's like looking up into a clear blue sky. You can see only so far into the sky, and you cannot see where the troposphere becomes the stratosphere and where that becomes mesosphere, thermosphere and exosphere where atmosphere merges into space. At some point the atmosphere merges into deep space and is no longer characterized by a molecular density that can rightly be called an atmosphere.

Similarly, my self operates at various levels, different chakra levels. I am VERY aware of the 'atmosphere' of my lower, earthly chakras, but I'm less aware of the 'atmosphere' of my higher chakras which are increasingly etherial and spacious. At some point my self merges into the immensity of the cosmos, Cosmic Consciousness. The faith I have is directed to the Cosmic Domain which, while juxtaposed to the most etherial levels of my self, that in all honesty I must regard it as "wholly other." The Cosmic may be 'me,' but it is so removed and so unconscious to my dense, earthly sense of self, that it is psychotic to say that I have faith in myself. No. I have faith in Cosmic Consciousness, Christ Consciousness, which proceeds from the Mystery that people call God. It is a Transcendental Reality from which you and I derive. We are not self-generated and eternal, except  perhaps at a level 'out there' so removed from immediate experience that we cannot in all honesty say that it's 'me' OR 'you.'


Hey, that's just your opinion you know.  I would say calling it conventional is a pretty big stretch though. 

I stand by my initial post, as I did not find your post convincing or relatable.  Thanks for sharing your opinion though.


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www.soulremedy.org

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: travsha]
    #23000281 -

Of course it's MY opinion, whose else would it be? The conventional meaning for faith is a contemplative attitude, a receptive stance to the workings of a Transcendental Object, not oneself. Having 'faith in oneself' is a figure of speech, a colloquialism if you will. But 'faith in oneself' is a psychological matter of self-esteem with its attendant feeling of confidence. Human beings may excel in a few things from money-making to invention to sainthood, but we are always limited by many factors. I have "faith" in my capability as a therapist, but I have no "faith" in me having ever become a physicist, for example. I was differentiating the colloquial use of the word faith with a religious concept, and a fairly liberal religious concept at that (unintentionally pantheistic). Feel free to disagree on either level, I'm not seeking either validation or conversion from you.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23000304 -

Faith is only as strong as what you are believing in. You can have all the faith in the would that you are going to set the world record for the 100 meter dash, that don't mean you will succeed.

Faith in a god is a placebo that makes some people feel better. Placebos don't work for everyone.


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Shroomery mycologist definitely know their shit. :wink:


Knowledge talks. Wisdom listens.

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: klhouse]
    #23001813 -

Just out of curiosity, what's your best "placebo effect" story?

What have you "psychologically BS-ed" yourself through most miraculously, be it with a job, a hobby, a relationship, etc?


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"Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance." — Confucius

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Loaded Shaman]
    #23002103 -

Someone once told me 'I don't mind religion, but it just offends me when people claim to know something that I don't'.

Although at first this seems reasonable, there's so many things that can be taken from it and it's why I've always remembered it.

Firstly, the person has overlooked the fact that there are billions are things in the world they don't know about. Their problem in reality being that the next person potentially has more than them. Lack of knowledge isn't the problem. It's being better than the next man, or fearing they have a vantage point.

The fact that they fear the next person having more than them, proves the potency of an unreasonable ego mind that has proven by judgement of that value, that the knowledge that the next persons bears might well be correct, hence the value...and the fear. This is the paradox.

Whilst this kind of self focused mindset exists, there can be no understanding of 'God' who's roots begin with treating the next person, unconditionally (without envy) as an equal.

When you surrender yourself to assuming you are all, you begin to understand the true 'all'.

This is no single persons knowledge. It is for all. Only the unnecessary fight with onself is the subjective affair which limits all ability to understand the former.


Edited by Duncan Rowhl (03/13/16 11:29 AM)

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: klhouse]
    #23002742 -

klhouse said:
Faith is only as strong as what you are believing in. You can have all the faith in the would that you are going to set the world record for the 100 meter dash, that don't mean you will succeed.

Faith in a god is a placebo that makes some people feel better. Placebos don't work for everyone.


I think the inverse is true. If there is weak evidence for your beliefs, the stronger your faith must be.

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: klhouse]
    #23003072 -

klhouse said:
Faith is only as strong as what you are believing in. You can have all the faith in the would that you are going to set the world record for the 100 meter dash, that don't mean you will succeed.

Faith in a god is a placebo that makes some people feel better. Placebos don't work for everyone.


No, faith is neither a placebo or the placebo-effect. As I said, and these are not my idiosyncratic definitions, faith is a particular attitude, an openness to a Transcendental Object. I am not debating the existence of God with you, neither am I comparing and contrasting faith with belief. I, for example, have the former, not the latter. I am attempting to clarify what the word faith means in a theological context, not a colloquial sense - which is where you're stuck. You are describing confidence in oneself. This is not the 'theological virtue' referred to as faith.

Individuals who do not walk a spiritual path where the word faith is understood in the context of their religious tradition are in no position to deny it, dismiss it, demean it, defy it, or deride it, because they can't even define it correctly! :lol:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23003139 -

Faith in 'God' is miraculous recall of the primary component which is also the essence of yourself. Quite different from hope visualisation affirmations.

I do think that 'blind faith' could well be defined as the latter though.

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #23003383 -

Quote:
faith is a particular attitude, an openness to a Transcendental Object.


That is a rather vague definition. Do you mean open to the possibility of the existence of a transcendental object, while also open to the possibility of its nonexistence? I would call this agnosticism. I guess this is where I stand. I am ready to believe something is true, only when the evidence supports it.

Faith I would define as claiming something as true, without evidence to support the claim.

Claiming something as true, WITH evidence to support the claim, would be knowledge.

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: SpinScratch]
    #23003539 -

I think the reason why atheists get so frustrated when talking about religion is because the religious people are the ones talking to an imaginary friend while they accuse atheists of being crazy.


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Shroomery mycologist definitely know their shit. :wink:


Knowledge talks. Wisdom listens.

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: klhouse]
    #23003794 -

klhouse said:
I think the reason why atheists get so frustrated when talking about religion is because the religious people are the ones talking to an imaginary friend while they accuse atheists of being crazy.


You just made that up to justify being frustrated yourself.

If you can make that up, let them have their man in the sky? :cool:

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Duncan Rowhl]
    #23003998 -

Yes, I am frustrated, and I told the reason why.


--------------------
Shroomery mycologist definitely know their shit. :wink:


Knowledge talks. Wisdom listens.

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: klhouse]
    #23004019 -

klhouse said:
I think the reason why atheists get so frustrated when talking about religion is because the religious people are the ones talking to an imaginary friend while they accuse atheists of being crazy.



I think you've got it backwards. It's atheists who accuse religious people of being crazy.

In my experience, religious people seldom call atheists crazy. They may think they are ignorant, uninformed, arrogant, conceited, irrational, going to hell, dogmatic, etc but not crazy. Anyone can see the temptation to only believe in what you can experience through the senses. Even the Bible says that Christianity is foolishness and nonsense to those without the Spirit.

So in my case for instance, while I may disagree with atheists on many things I do not think they are crazy. They simply have a beam in their eye obstructing their vision.


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

Edited by Peyote Road (03/13/16 10:41 PM)

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: viktor]
    #23004143 -

viktor said:
Faith = capacity for self-delusion.

It's prized by religions because it correlates with a will to submit to slavery.


this basically. To some degree faith can be beneficial, in as much as escapism makes one happier. When that gets taken too far and turned into doctrine though, the consequences can be pretty severe. IMO faith is largely a bad thing. Question everything.


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Ezuma Art:

http://ezumaart.weebly.com/

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Re: What does it mean to have faith and why is it a good thing? [Re: Ezuma]
    #23004163 -

Having a reasonable faith in your true abilities is valuable.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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