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What part, if any, does faith play in justification before God?
    #5076340 -

Faith is NOT an instrument by which someone is justified before God (but it IS a means by which justification is revealed to the conscience). Let me explain what I mean.

Faith is the means by which a person experientially observes that he has become justified. Justification BEFORE GOD is solely and exclusively grounded on the work of Jesus Christ on behalf of His elect, His sheep. The faith itself is not a cause of justification, only Christ's obedience that justifies. True faith observes the fact that no merit can ever enter into justification in any way. The gospel reveals that God can only accept perfect righteousness, and that perfect righteousness is only found in Jesus Christ alone. Alone means that no merits can be mixed into the righteousness of Christ that somehow make it become effectual. This does not mean that people are justified without faith, every one who is ordained to eternal life, will in the fullness of time, hear the Word, which gets applied by the Spirit to the heart, and be converted.

The Holy Spirit teaches what the sole ground of justification is, which is Christ alone. The Spirit shows what the terms sin, righteousness and judgement are in a biblical sense, which differs from what men think these terms mean. Every man has some conception of right from wrong, however every man is completely blind when it comes to righteousness revealed in the gospel. This is why a man must be born again before he can even understand spiritual things. The best religious efforts of fallen man are NOT acceptable, this is why the self-righteous Pharisees desperately hated Jesus, because He testified that their best religious efforts were worthless. The same thing exists today, only in a different way. The overwhelming opinion in modern apostate Christendom is that man must cooperate in his justification by exercising faith, repentance, ect., and these efforts are somehow synergized with Christ's righteousness to produce a justified state. This is damnable heresy and comes right out of the (albeit in a slightly modified way) doctrines of Romanism.

Every Christian understands the doctrine of free grace justification, without exception, otherwise the professor is not a Christian.

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Re: What part, if any, does faith play in justification before God? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5076418 -

what does five pointer mean, is it red?


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Asshole

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Re: What part, if any, does faith play in justification before God? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
    #5080166 -

what exactly do you mean by "justification before God"?

For me, we are a part of God no matter what. No separation, no judging. Just divine being

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Re: What part, if any, does faith play in justification before God? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5081311 -

The story about how original Christianity lost out to the Literalist theology that you espouse.

Here, on the Shroomery, any sympathy to Christ is going to resonate with the original Gnostic form of Christianity, not the later exoteric story-lines that were expected to be taken literally and historically even to the present day.

"Literalist Christianity was just another minor cult competing for adherents in the overcrowded spiritual marketplace. But it came up with a new marketing angle that gave it an edge over the other cults of the dying and resurrecting Godman. It claimed that while the Pagan stories were just myths, Jesus had actually come and lived out these myths in the flesh. The Son of God, so lovingly described by the Pagan philosophers, and the Messiah, so desperately awaited by the Jews, had incarnated in one man, in one place, at one time. This was a revolutionary new claim." pp. 66-67


Couple this with later New Testament insertions - clearly NOT written by Paul - and your mainstream theological stance becomes fixed - even if it is NOT historically true:

"In the third century CE the holy forgery mill of Literalist Christianity continued to churn out documents to add to the New Testament. More letters were created that portra Paul as a Literalist, such as 2 Thessalonians and 3 Corinthians. Letters were also forged in the Names of Peter and John. The Second Letter of John gives up all pretense to communicate anything about Jesus. Its sole purpose is to attack the 'many deceivers' who 'do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.'" p. 74

"Literalist Christians believed that by revering the Bible as the infallible Word of God they would usher in a new age of Christian enlightenment. But they were completely wrong. In fact the lights went out all over Europe and the West reverted to a brutish life of ignorance and superstition...they actually created the thousand years of misery that we call the 'Dark Ages'." p. 79

Now I was where you seem to be now, and when I was like you, I would immediately have relegated my current position as belonging to the 'deceiver.' In fact, that marketing ploy attributed to Eusebius (under Constantine) sold me completely on the idea that of all the religions I was experimenting with, I chose Christ in large measure because He was manifested on the physical plane, unlike Krishna, Mithras, Attis, Dionysus, etc. Now Buddha is also a Savior in the world who makes more sense to the Eastern temperament, and Buddha lived four centuries before Jesus was said to have lived, and while I have much knowledge of Buddhism and have benefitted greatly from the Truths that the Buddhists hold most dear, I still aspire to be a Jew after the manner of Jesus - even if He turns out to be purely mythological!

I do not think that you could handle reading the book. You woud abreact emotionally and condemn it as full of lies and hence of the Father of Lies. I once would have said as much, and no, I have not gradually become polluted or diluted in my faith. Here you are, on a site dedicated to Entheogens [God-generated-within] which accounts for Experiences of Gnosis, but I doubt that you have ever had an experience of Entheogenic prompted Gnosis, or you would no longer be able to take the Literalist position that you do. You would understand that 'we have this treasure in earthly vessels,' and you would understand that all the talk here about transcending the ego is in fact "I live, yet not I; Christ liveth in me." Eventually you might understand that this is the Christian Way of talking about Gnosis, and while it is the only WAY, the Way exists in other religions and is called by other Names. Sometimes it is called The Way. The Tao in Taoism means The Way. Literalists are profoundly materialistic. They say "Christ" but imagine a long-haird Jewish man of the 1st century. Johannine propaganda - God made flesh - long-haired Jewish genetically haploid flesh.

Perhaps you should come here to listen and to learn; to expand your exoteric understanding into esoteric heights. Do you know what Paul meant by 'being caught up to the third heaven?' Do you grok the model that he was expressing? Are you here to do spiritual battle with those whom you assume are spiritually lost? Because until you become aware of the assumptions that you are motivated by you will not understand this Gnostic-Literalist distinction. Mere words parroted from the Bible without understanding the population to whom you speak is more of what many of these Shroomerites are here to get away from - bigoted intolerant parents for the most part. Shroomerites in large number have had Experiences of Gnosis and they are attempting to understand and even name it. I realized it long ago and Knew it to be Christ, which has governed my life for over 30 years. If you cherish the thought that my Light is Luciferic, not Christ, then you will be known as just another [c]hristian bigot, dickering over doctrinal propaganda not the quality of a person's Heart.

In all sincerity, I wish you well on your spiritual journey.
- Mark[ostheGnostic]


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What part, if any, does faith play in justification before God? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5082980 -

<<Here, on the Shroomery, any sympathy to Christ is going to resonate with the original Gnostic form of Christianity, not the later exoteric story-lines that were expected to be taken literally and historically even to the present day.>>

Wow! Now you are defining the shroomery's christianity, everyone on it's opinion! Are we allowed to think differently Pope Fruitball the 1 millionth, or are we all subject to your definition now and not just your postings - considering a lot (LOT) of people on here don't agree with you at all (at ALL), and you seem to have tipped totally off the deep end with that bogus, ignorant and insulting statement.
You are so good at revealing your true colors! Pope Fruitball the false - there are plenty of people on the shroomery who aren't complete nutters like you Markos....
You have no right to define Christianity for people or tell anyone what "The Shroomery" is, does or defines - you're just basically "self help book powered" comic relief. :werd:


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Yours in the Natural State Land of Enchantment!

"Sometimes the only way for a man to find true happiness is to take drugs in a group" - Cochise

No makin funna my pomes!

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Re: What part, if any, does faith play in justification before God? [Re: curenado]
    #5082996 -

And no - there's no need to launch into one of your page long diatribes to justify - I won't be back to read this thread so you can spare the poor folks one of those "all my life" rants to spout back at me....
That was absolutely one of the rawest, most false and also revealing things you have ever let slip!

<<<<Here, on the Shroomery, any sympathy to Christ is going to resonate with the original Gnostic form of Christianity, not the later exoteric story-lines that were expected to be taken literally and historically even to the present day.>>

What a total (predatory) basket case you are!


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Yours in the Natural State Land of Enchantment!

"Sometimes the only way for a man to find true happiness is to take drugs in a group" - Cochise

No makin funna my pomes!

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Re: What part, if any, does faith play in justification before God? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5083099 -

The story about how original Christianity lost out to the Literalist theology that you espouse...

I do not know how you define the term "Literalist", but I have already stated the scriptures are spiritual with many types, pictures, and shadows of spiritual truths. I do not consider myself to be a "Literalist" as I would understand the term.


"Literalist Christianity was just another minor cult competing for adherents in the overcrowded spiritual marketplace. But it came up with a new marketing angle that gave it an edge over the other cults of the dying and resurrecting Godman. It claimed that while the Pagan stories were just myths, Jesus had actually come and lived out these myths in the flesh. The Son of God, so lovingly described by the Pagan philosophers, and the Messiah, so desperately awaited by the Jews, had incarnated in one man, in one place, at one time. This was a revolutionary new claim." pp. 66-67
"In the third century CE the holy forgery mill of Literalist Christianity continued to churn out documents to add to the New Testament. More letters were created that portra Paul as a Literalist, such as 2 Thessalonians and 3 Corinthians. Letters were also forged in the Names of Peter and John. The Second Letter of John gives up all pretense to communicate anything about Jesus. Its sole purpose is to attack the 'many deceivers' who 'do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh.'" p. 74


Your denial of Jesus coming in the flesh proves where you stand, as antichrist. John's epistles are not forgeries. Your constant attacks on the validity of scripture again reinforce your standing as antichrist.

1Jo 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jo 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.




"Literalist Christians believed that by revering the Bible as the infallible Word of God they would usher in a new age of Christian enlightenment. But they were completely wrong. In fact the lights went out all over Europe and the West reverted to a brutish life of ignorance and superstition...they actually created the thousand years of misery that we call the 'Dark Ages'." p. 79

Now which group rose in the dark ages? The Roman Catholic antichristain church. They do not consider scripture as infallible, just examine the doctrines they expound to see this. Who burned at the stake those who dared to publish the Bible? Ignorance and superstition are hallmarks of Romanism.


Eventually you might understand that this is the Christian Way of talking about Gnosis, and while it is the only WAY, the Way exists in other religions and is called by other Names. Sometimes it is called The Way. The Tao in Taoism means The Way.

There is only one Way, all other ways are false.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



Perhaps you should come here to listen and to learn; to expand your exoteric understanding into esoteric heights. Do you know what Paul meant by 'being caught up to the third heaven?'

Why would you quote scripture, after all it is not inspired and probably a forgery, right? After all God can not preserve His Word, according to your false doctrine.


... but I doubt that you have ever had an experience of Entheogenic prompted Gnosis, or you would no longer be able to take the Literalist position that you do. You would understand that 'we have this treasure in earthly vessels,' and you would understand that all the talk here about transcending the ego is in fact "I live, yet not I; Christ liveth in me."
....Shroomerites in large number have had Experiences of Gnosis and they are attempting to understand and even name it. I realized it long ago and Knew it to be Christ, which has governed my life for over 30 years.


You place great weight on personal experience. However if "experience" does not harmonize with scripture, then it is a false experience. I have had many Entheogenic experiences before I was converted, and I held many varied notions about spirtual matters. But once the true gospel shone in my heart, by the Word and the Spirit, I knew these "experiences" were just delusions.


If you cherish the thought that my Light is Luciferic, not Christ, then you will be known as just another [c]hristian bigot, dickering over doctrinal propaganda not the quality of a person's Heart.

I truly hope that my postings, that may seem harsh, may be applied to your heart, and you may be granted repentance, so that you may see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. And that you may have great joy when you read His infallible Word.

Edited by fivepointer (12/19/05 06:32 PM)

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Re: What part, if any, does faith play in justification before God? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5083346 -

Typical and predictable, the imperialism of the Literalist-Fundamentalist mind-set - the residuum of Roman imperialism. I realize that your mind-set is only a 'cap' that you wear and not your essential being, but the problem is that you don't 'Know' it  :sad:. You are dreadfully brainwashed lad, as are your Muslim counterparts. Both of you place your faith not in G-D but in the writings of men.

If you bothered to educate yourself about the origins of the scriptures that you prefer, you would discover that. You would then have to establish a spiritual identity instead of a merely intellectual identity based on a materialistic interpretation of Christian mythos.  The end of the world that both faiths seek is rooted in your respective rabidly delusional loyalty to scriptures that say exactly opposite things. I have no option but to stand back and watch both sides have at it, even though I may become a victim of collateral damage. Timothy McVey and Fundamentalists like him in the Muslim camp are exactly the same.

You may well have had false Entheogenic Experiences, but what you have settled for is not more real but less. I went through the same process. Larry Norman sang: "...No more LSD for me - I met the man from Galilee..." and I got behind that for a while, wholeheartedly. But I persevered on my quest for the Truth. Twenty-eight years past seminary, and you'll not find me calling someone whose theology or religion is other than mine "antichrist." This is not what one says or does when one is suffused by the Holy Spirit. You are off the mark - hamartia - in sin, not me in this regard. Christians manifest Mercy, G-D alone is Judgement.

+++I pray that your hatred stays within the psychic realm and does not manifest on the physical. Amen +++

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Re: What part, if any, does faith play in justification before God? [Re: curenado]
    #5083472 -

How utterly 'eloquent' of you - so passionate and yet, so uncomprehending. Try reading the post again with assistance if necessary. If you are a Fundamentalist 'anything' than I suppose you'll take affront, but I don't think you have any idea where I'm coming from judging by the juvenile emotional response that you provided. And who now is speaking for all those Shroomerites who aren't "nutters" [how cute]? I was speaking for those who are seekers at the Shroomery, and clearly my reference does not pertain to you. I'm certain that I did not offend your religious sensitivities here, so you are simply taking offense to be offensive and resentful. Since I was not referring to you, buzz off and butt out.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What part, if any, does faith play in justification before God? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5083580 -

He doesn't have to buzz off or butt out you totally fake, predatory schizo who carries on with absolutely no accountability or responcibility for what you say and do. (I lied. I came back to see what GREAT HOWLING BULLSHIT you would throw and then caught you trying to work your phony crud on somebody else.)

Miss-Information, you are actually and exactly anti-thetical to the Shroomery's stated standards and goals and just another see-through attack on someone who caught you really won't work.

<<not the quality of a person's Heart.>>
Don't you realise that it's obvious to people that you don't have this "heart" you talk about or you wouldn't act and do them the way you do?

The guy is saying you are false and evil; how can anyone disagree when you demonstrate it so well? Unethical, deceitful, manipulative predators have no use for anyones heart - except as a meal. U2ATee...

Thank God more people are starting to wise up to you Markos - it helps make up for all the people you have totally trashed and harmed to play your games. That's all they are to you, and those you play them on are less to you.

<<judging by the juvenile emotional response that you provided>>

again, to grown-ups Markos, that's actually you. Eloquent words don't cover you up, they just confuse simple folk and make you think you've fooled somebody.

Here's a quote from fivepointer's book:
"Have no truck with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather expose them"

Good going kid! Psychologically, mentally or spiritually - you were right on target with Markos...a total "Red Flag" person that somehow is tolerated around here without the slightest shred of validation for the authoritarian claims he makes....


--------------------
Yours in the Natural State Land of Enchantment!

"Sometimes the only way for a man to find true happiness is to take drugs in a group" - Cochise

No makin funna my pomes!

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Re: What part, if any, does faith play in justification before God? [Re: curenado]
    #5083949 -

Get a dictionary and look up some of the words you're using, like "predatory." I don't think anyone has ever called me that before, probably because it doesn't fit. "Schizo" is not a word, it is part of a word: schizophrenic, of which there are several types, a disease that I do not have. I'll over-look typos but the word "phony" also does not fit in any dimension. You are attempting to reduce my words through your own insecurity. I make no claim to "authority" but you have a real problem with authority - not just people with power over you, but with people who actually do know what they're talking about. Since I do not "BULLSHIT" [taken as a verb - fabricate untrue things] your little tirade is a lot more revealing about you than it is about me. May as well call me a 'doody-head,' or something just as juvenile because it simply would tell people that you don't like my writing. Instead, you're just demonstrating your own ignorance. Hey, you used to jump into school yard fights didn't you? Take a cheap shot at someone in someone else's fight? I know the type - I still work with adolescents like you. I'm certain that you'd get bent out of shape at an attempted insult a lot less damning than "antichrist." Probably throw down at "Yaw mama!" Well, your bigoted buddy probably thinks you're going to Hell too, or haven't you noticed whose back you've got?

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Re: What part, if any, does faith play in justification before God? [Re: fivepointer]
    #5084947 -

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
The level of discussion has headed towards personal attacks. People, use the PM system and prevent threads from closing for such reason.

Most people in MR&P see entheogens as tools of knowledge and freedom from dogmatic teachings. This is the nature that must be accepted by everyone before posting in this forum.

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