Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

MagicBag Grow Bags
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coercion
    #2223028 -

alright, I just read through mushmasters defence of consent, but the argument descended into confusion, so rather than continue that thread...

until very recently, virtually all major philosophers (that I've read) agree, in some form or another, that a state is justified. by state I mean a system by which all people are governed and to some extent also govern. commitment to such an idea is the motivation behind socrates's willingness to die, kant's categorical imperative demands a state, etc.

now, as I understand it, the biggest argument against a state comes from some continental philosophers who distrust any far reaching system, pointing to the past (democracies SO fight other democracies) and to the possibility of single issue treaty making between power structures. I'm sure there are more sophisticated arguements that I haven't read.

anyway, it seems to me that this emphasis on consent (with mushmaster et al and in the larger academic world) is influenced by these anti-state continentals. well, I like the idea of furthering moral ends through the state, just different ones than are now - I want free education, health care, social justice, and so on. these things, in no uncertain terms, require coercion (as it's been defined).

basically, people need to be forced to do the right thing.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coercion [Re: Malachi]
    #2223035 -

I think better public education (NOT in the form of propangda-like coercion) will steer the people better.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coercion [Re: Malachi]
    #2223102 -


basically, people need to be forced to do the right thing.


Therein lies the basic idea that drives people who feel as if the
needs of individuals should be subjugated to the needs of the
collective. It is a thorny issue that has been debated for many
many years.

The "right thing" that you speak of is income redistribution. You
advocate taking some people's efforts and giving it to other people
who did not expend that effort. I don't think people should be
forced to do the "right thing" that you speak of. This infringes
upon individual liberty, breeds mediocrity, and stifles humanity.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coercion [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2223416 -

advocate taking some people's efforts and giving it to other people who did not expend that effort.

Welfare for the poor is only a tiny part of the things our tax's are used for randall. I'd rather not have my tax money pissed away on the war in Iraq, corporate welfare etc. I'd prefer to see 99% go to the needy. That's the sacrifice I make every time I pay tax. The sacrifice you make is a tiny part of your tax bill might go the needy.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coercion [Re: Malachi]
    #2223560 -

basically, people need to be forced to do the right thing.

Can you force people to be enlightened or is it something that only comes about through your own realizations? Forcing people to do a 'right thing' is not going to make them understand what the 'right thing' is, and why it's right. This tactic is only useful for people who have an agenda to follow.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coerci [Re: Xlea321]
    #2223565 -

That's the sacrifice I make every time I pay tax.

which you shouldn't be forced into making.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coercion [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2223659 -

RandalFlagg said:
Therein lies the basic idea that drives people who feel as if the
needs of individuals should be subjugated to the needs of the
collective. It is a thorny issue that has been debated for many
many years.

The "right thing" that you speak of is income redistribution. You
advocate taking some people's efforts and giving it to other people
who did not expend that effort. I don't think people should be
forced to do the "right thing" that you speak of. This infringes
upon individual liberty, breeds mediocrity, and stifles humanity.


no, in the most meaningful sense individual liberty and humanity would be strengthened and mediocrity would be lessened in a state whose goals are wider than merely defending the right to consensual transactions.

after all, those who are uneducated are hardly free to decide on even the most primitive mattes like life goals or passion. if one isn't exposed to a wide range of thought, occupation, theory, etc, one can hardly decide between them.

mediocrity? well, the american bourgeois has seen to that regardless of their freedom and protected consent. contrast these numerous freely made choices with the restricted opportunity of the downtrodden. creativity is an extremely nebulous thing, but I think it's safe to say it requires more than mere masses of freely consenting individuals - it requires some kind of value creation inherently undemocratic - the artist seeks to force a different value on the audience, to coerce.

humanity = all of us. as has been mentioned, human groups that tend towards cooperation tend to survive, hence, cooperation not division is the prevailing theme of human endevor. therefore collective goal making is much more "human" than individual goals. the constant denial of this fact is what causes strife.

the strange thing is that a more fully "human" human is the purpose of subjecting the individual to collectivist standards - but these standards are rarely if ever actually originated by the collective, rather, the value creator is an individual or small group.

regardless, I content that the good value is a collective value, that the only consent anyone can be permited is that consent that doesn't prevent the most amount of humaness from coming into being. standards of humaness include art, philosophy, pure experience and richness of mind.

these things are more important than who exerted what effort - an impossible task to figure out anyhow, unless you want to track down all the people throughout history who exerted effort but weren't compensated.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coerci [Re: Malachi]
    #2223674 -

malachi... do you think that you personally have a right to initiate force against people in order to make them "do what's right"?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coercion [Re: Xlea321]
    #2224035 -


advocate taking some people's efforts and giving it to other people
who did not expend that effort.


Welfare for the poor is only a tiny part of the things our tax's are
used for randall.

Maybe in England it is that way, but not in America. A huge amount of
money is spent on providing poor people with stuff. There is
public subsidized housing everywhere, pregnant women with no money
get free medical care, and poor people get food stamps and cash.
This is not a tiny amount of our budget, it is a very large amount
of it.


I'd rather not have my tax money pissed away on the war in Iraq,
corporate welfare etc.


Well, I think that government spending in ALL areas needs to be
reduced(this includes the military). But, I'd rather not have my tax
money pissed away on people who did nothing to earn it.

I am kind of cynical when it comes to welfare because I have seen
firsthand how people abuse it. Of all of the people I have known
who were on some kind of public assistance(Medicare(tax money that
pays for poor people's medical care), food stamps, cash payments,
etc..) not one of them made an effort to get off of the public
assistance in question. Not one of them made an effort to support
themselves or better themselves. Not one of them had the pride to
be self-sufficient.

Do you think a bear is going to hunt when it can just go to the local
dump and eat the garbage? When things are handed to people, they
get lazy.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coercion [Re: Malachi]
    #2224077 -


no, in the most meaningful sense individual liberty and humanity
would be strengthened and mediocrity would be lessened in a state
whose goals are wider than merely defending the right to consensual
transactions.


And the only way to institute a philosophy of whatever your idea
of right is(which other people might not agree with) is to stifle
individual will and force people to think like you. Communist
countries tried to do that and they failed.


after all, those who are uneducated are hardly free to decide on even
the most primitive mattes like life goals or passion.


Those who are uneducated have the ability to go whereever they
want to if they only put forth the effort.

That's why we have free education through grade 12 for everyone.
And poor students who wish to go to college have access to grants
and low-interest loans from the government.


restricted opportunity of the downtrodden.


Restricted opportunity of the downtrodden? They may have it harder
than the rich, but they have the opportunity to succeed if they put
forth effort.

What about my restricted opportunity when a large chunk of the
money I earn is taken away and given to people who don't do shit?


creativity is an extremely nebulous thing, but I think it's safe to
say it requires more than mere masses of freely consenting
individuals - it requires some kind of value creation inherently
undemocratic - the artist seeks to force a different value on the
audience, to coerce.

Yikes....to coerce. To bend people's will to what you think
the world should be like. You sound like a fanatic or a would-be
dictator.


cooperation not division is the prevailing theme of human endevor.

Why have developed capitalistic economies been so productive and
why do the citizens who live in these economies prosper so
much(even the poor ones). Why have communist economies failed
and imploded?


therefore collective goal making is much more "human" than individual
goals. the constant denial of this fact is what causes strife.

What causes strife and oppression is when a person seeks to institute
a philosophy upon other people and bend them to its will.

The only way to ensure the complete safety, equality, tolerance,
tranquility, and "enlightenment" that some people crave would
be to control Mankind mercilessly. I would rather eat dirt and
live in my own filth than to live under a system or a mandatory
communal attitude that dictated what I should think, how I should
act, and what I should be.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coerci [Re: Malachi]
    #2227741 -

Malachi writes:

well, I like the idea of furthering moral ends through the state, just different ones than are now - I want free education, health care, social justice, and so on.

What you want is not necessarily what is morally acceptable.

Why stop at "free" education and health care? Why not include free housing and clothing and food?

Also note that the only thing free in this life is air. Everything else must be acquired through effort. So when you advocate "free" education and health care, what you really advocate is health care and education paid for by someone other than yourself.

Finally, what is your definition of "social justice"? That's a pretty nebulous term.

As for the need of people being forced to do the right thing, it has already been pointed out by others that this is an untenable position.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coerci [Re: Malachi]
    #2227804 -

Malachi writes:

no, in the most meaningful sense individual liberty and humanity would be strengthened and mediocrity would be lessened in a state whose goals are wider than merely defending the right to consensual transactions.

How? By what specific mechanism? Can you walk us through a specific example illustrating your assertion?

after all, those who are uneducated are hardly free to decide on even the most primitive mattes like life goals or passion. if one isn't exposed to a wide range of thought, occupation, theory, etc, one can hardly decide between them.

Of course they are free to decide these matters. They may actually be better at it than some ivory tower professors who have had their heads stuffed full of nonsense from the time they entered the government school system. The fact that one has been extensively educated doesn't mean one automatically makes smart decisions. I can think offhand of at many college grads I know personally who have made some staggeringly stupid decisions regarding life goals and passion.

contrast these numerous freely made choices with the restricted opportunity of the downtrodden.

In a society where the initiation of force is forbidden, how does one become "downtrodden"? Who is doing the treading upon them?

... human groups that tend towards cooperation tend to survive, hence, cooperation not division is the prevailing theme of human endevor.

Correct. However, being coerced is not the same as cooperating.

therefore collective goal making is much more "human" than individual goals. the constant denial of this fact is what causes strife.

Faulty logic. The fact that humans tend to cooperate with one another in achieving their own individual goals does not necessarily mean that said cooperation extends toward any given collective goal. And even in cases where a specific collective goal is aimed for (building a new barn for a farmer whose old one was burned out), note again the difference between coercion and cooperation.

the strange thing is that a more fully "human" human is the purpose of subjecting the individual to collectivist standards...

There's a debatable assertion if ever there was one!

...but these standards are rarely if ever actually originated by the collective, rather, the value creator is an individual or small group.

If so, why should a single individual or small group dictate the actions of countless others?

regardless, I content that the good value is a collective value, that the only consent anyone can be permited is that consent that doesn't prevent the most amount of humaness from coming into being.

Who decides what is "humanness"? How do we reach agreement as to how any amount of said "humanness" comes into being, let alone the most amount? How specifically can the peaceful actions of one human (or many humans for that matter) going about his daily life prevent another human from becoming "more" human? Specifics, please.

standards of humaness include art, philosophy, pure experience and richness of mind.

A friend of mine is a Dominican day laborer. One of the nicest guys I know. He has almost zero education -- can't even read or write, actually. His appreciation of art is non-existent. He knows little or nothing of philosophy other than the philosophy of his religion. His experience is limited to forty years of living and working in the same village and the surrounding villages. His "richness of mind" therefore is not as extensive as mine for example.

And you know what? He doesn't care. He's just one of those simple and direct people who can take art or leave it. Philosophical debates such as the ones we engage in here leave him cold -- not because he is stupid but because they don't interest him.

Yet he is as "human" as I am. He has a strong sense of honor and of honesty. He is friendly and generous and hard-working and responsible. He has a great sense of humor. I'm proud he considers me his friend. I wouldn't trade his friendship for the friendship of a dozen literary snobs or art critics or philosophical dilettantes, regardless of how much more "humanness" they theoretically possess.

these things are more important than who exerted what effort...

Not so. The most important question to be decided is whose effort supports whose existence. Once that has been determined we can look at the subsidiary issue of whose effort should be hijacked to increase the "humanness" of those deemed (by whom?) to have less of it than the "ideal".

...an impossible task to figure out anyhow, unless you want to track down all the people throughout history who exerted effort but weren't compensated.

False dichotomy.

Of course those alive today benefit from the efforts of those who preceded us. That doesn't make the effort of those alive today up for grabs to anyone who presents a claim on them.

As an aside, how do you propose we compensate those who preceded us? Through time travel?

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coerci [Re: Phred]
    #2228155 -

Quote:
Why stop at "free" education and health care? Why not include free housing and clothing and food?



because I accept the necessity of a competitive market. this appears to be the most efficient way to divide labor. however, should the market fail to provide people with human necessities or the ability to make informed consent, it ought to be corrected by government. this correction ought to be the primary role of a liberal democracy.

Quote:
Finally, what is your definition of "social justice"? That's a pretty nebulous term.




the removal of unfair advantages in society. this doesn't really mean income redistribution- I agree that many of the poor are such because of personal failings like propensity to not save their money, not invest it, etc etc.

but for those that are striving to better themselves financially, there are some pretty fucked up disparities. for instance, I want to be a philosopher. do you know what I have to look forward to? paying the same inflated tuition as everyone else, going to grad school, getting myself totally in debt, then maybe getting a teaching position in god knows where for 25 grand a year. are marketing majors really more vital for the "humanity" or alleviating the "mediocrity" of society? I think not.

Quote:
As for the need of people being forced to do the right thing, it has already been pointed out by others that this is an untenable position.



no, it hasn't. we force people to do moral things all the time, in the legal system and in common place. if you were starving and penniless in the desert and you came upon a food vendor, wouldn't you force him to do the right thing?

doesn't our legal system force compensation when theft occurs?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coerci [Re: Phred]
    #2228262 -

Quote:
How? By what specific mechanism? Can you walk us through a specific example illustrating your assertion?



sure. individual liberty becomes more accessible to the masses when they are given the opportunity to be aware of a wider range of human possibility. awareness is required to have freedom of choice. and that, to me, is the most important freedom, not "freedom to not have to contribute to my societies overall awareness and freedom of choice".

I believe humanity is the sum total of all human activity, though, endeavour, and so on, and liberal art/ humanities are the pursit of being aware of them (or ought to be). therefore we become "more human" the more of humanity we are aware of. mediocrity is the opposite of this process.

Quote:
They may actually be better at it than some ivory tower professors who have had their heads stuffed full of nonsense from the time they entered the government school system. The fact that one has been extensively educated doesn't mean one automatically makes smart decisions. I can think offhand of at many college grads I know personally who have made some staggeringly stupid decisions regarding life goals and passion.




no disagreement here. but thats a problem of application, which I have major issues with. the biggest one being exclusivity. it's an "ivory tower" because a few people, usually from rich families, control it.

this doesn't take away the basic truth of the goodness of a diverse and rigorous education. western liberalness has gotten us to this point of comparatively
egalitarian morality which most will agree is a good thing. unfortunately, the promise of open though has become dogmatic and rigid - in philosophy the overwhelming focus is explaining how we got here, a history of thought. the academy has largely dropped the old goal of defining ends, of finding the good life. of course, if you go to the more esoteric professors, they're all about finding alternative paths to an understanding of goodness, and this sheik has carried over into the bourgeois - if I want to dedicate my life to finding the truth in yoga, the only manner of doing so and still making money is to cater to soccer moms.

anyway, yes, people who don't go to a university may have just as good chances of figuring themselves out as students, but that's just an indicator that universities aren't what they ought to be. a huge influx of money and people ought to do some good in getting the academy back to doing what it's supposed to be doing: figuring out what the good life is. even if this doesn't just happen overnight, all people still ought to be able to delve into the resources of the current academy to see if there is anything there that interests or helps them.


* alright, I got all carried away and now I have to go do some work. will finish reply later*


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coerci [Re: Malachi]
    #2228945 -

Malachi writes:

because I accept the necessity of a competitive market. this appears to be the most efficient way to divide labor.

Then why do you believe education and health care should not also operate under the same efficient system? What is it about these two areas that make them exempt from the laws governing efficiency in other human endeavors?

the removal of unfair advantages in society.

Such as?

Someone (a Pavarotti for example) possesses an enormous advantage over most of us -- an incredible voice. How are we to remove his voice?

Others (Michelle Pfeiffer for example) are beautiful enough to command decent salaries as actresses or models. How are we to remove her beauty?

Still others (Ray Walton for example) have the drive to create giant successful businesses employing tens of thousands of people. How are we to remove his drive?

Others (the guy who invented liquid paper correcting fluid, for example) have the advantage of an imagination which pops out ideas that improve our lives and make them a fortune. How are we to stifle his imagination?

Once we have removed the advantages of the four (out of many) types of individual I described above, how has the rest of the world benefited? How has "social justice" been advanced, specifically?

for instance, I want to be a philosopher.

So be one. Who's stopping you?

do you know what I have to look forward to? paying the same inflated tuition as everyone else, going to grad school, getting myself totally in debt, then maybe getting a teaching position in god knows where for 25 grand a year. are marketing majors really more vital for the "humanity" or alleviating the "mediocrity" of society? I think not.

So your beef is not that you can't be a philosopher -- it's that it costs more than you personally feel it should to obtain a diploma saying you are indeed a philosopher, and that once you have that paper, you won't make the amount of money you feel you should be paid?

Sorry if I fail to grasp the dilemma.

we force people to do moral things all the time, in the legal system and in common place.

Incorrect. No one is forced to do moral things. They are rather prevented from doing illegal things. Not the same thing at all.

if you were starving and penniless in the desert and you came upon a food vendor, wouldn't you force him to do the right thing?]

I'd certainly do my damndest to persuade him to donate some food to me as a charitable act. If he declined, I'd then do my damndest to hire me to help him out with his food cart sales. If he still declined, I'd try to persuade him to sell me some food on credit.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: the state - govern and be governed - ends justify coerci [Re: Malachi]
    #2228973 -

Malachi writes:

individual liberty becomes more accessible to the masses when they are given the opportunity to be aware of a wider range of human possibility.

Incorrect. Liberty doesn't increase one whit with increased knowledge.

awareness is required to have freedom of choice.

Correct. However, one need not have perfect knowledge in order to choose.

unfortunately, the promise of open though has become dogmatic and rigid - in philosophy the overwhelming focus is explaining how we got here, a history of thought.

As you continue your study of philosophy, you will find that those philosophers who restrict themselves to that narrow point of view have little to offer. I prefer philosophers who accept the existence of humans as a given and work from there -- now that we are here, what should we do and not do and why should we do or not do these things.

the academy has largely dropped the old goal of defining ends, of finding the good life.

Too true, unfortunately. This is the main reason I decided not to pursue philosophy through the academic labyrinth.

if I want to dedicate my life to finding the truth in yoga, the only manner of doing so and still making money is to cater to soccer moms.

And this is a problem because... ?

a huge influx of money and people ought to do some good in getting the academy back to doing what it's supposed to be doing: figuring out what the good life is.

No money is needed. Just throw out the "philosophers" who spend their entire academic careers arguing over what "is" is.

pinky


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* The Shadow Government
( 1 2 all )		 Anonymous 4,549 28 08/29/17 03:23 PM
by Happy Days
* The Government
( 1 2 all )		 DailyPot 4,288 33 01/18/14 11:44 AM
by Echro
* Legitimate Functions of Government silversoul7 1,534 19 05/06/03 02:56 PM
by I_Fart_Blue
* The United States is NOT Capitalist...
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )		 trendalM 17,950 133 09/28/09 11:34 AM
by Phred
* The U.S. Government Lied to You SquattingMarmot 580 2 11/01/03 02:26 AM
by Baby_Hitler
* For You Gun Haters
( 1 2 3 4 ... 10 11 all )		 Sinistar 15,292 211 02/09/03 05:18 AM
by Evolving
* The False Promise of Gun Control
( 1 2 all )		 Anonymous 4,132 23 04/16/03 05:53 PM
by pattern
* Just Say No!...To Politics
( 1 2 all )		 Autonomous 4,049 35 04/06/22 06:39 AM
by how.psilly.of.me

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
1,042 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 17 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.028 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 14 queries.