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Dealing with Manipulators.
    #22217352 -

To provide some background on what is driving me to write this,
last night, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, whom can be very aggressive with his points of view; relying on emotion to ‘win’ out with something he disagrees with other than data and/or a sound argument, ignoring data and good arguments against his own.

He also uses this to get his way in everyday situations, when things aren’t going the way he wants them to, often creating embarrassing and uncomfortable situations in public.

It’s difficult for me to remember exactly what he said verbatim, but in this conversation he said something that immediately stuck out to me as venom, as a syntax structure whose very nature is to gently deceive and manipulate you into a position in which he has power.
It was something along the lines of:
“You don’t need empirical evidence when listening to me; you listen with your heart and know my words are true.”

Now, if this person were genuinely compassionate, caring and gentle I would feel much different.
I’m sure there are other words for it, but this is what I like to call “Messiah dialogue” for what I feel should be obvious reasons, but would be happy to clarify.

I’ve fortunately have had the pleasure of dealing with people like this before, but’s it’s always different and never easy…

My biggest question here is, how have any of you learned to handle such situations and people, especially those whom you know on a personal or professional basis, without creating a great deal of conflict?

How do you halt or handle a manipulator like this?

(edit: shit grammar)


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.

Edited by Raven Gnosis (09/10/15 03:27 PM)

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Raven Gnosis] * 1
    #22217403 -

Call bullshit and stand by it. If that they stand by their bullshit more than your friendship, thems the breaks. :eek:

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #22217423 -

Argument speaks for itself, and people talking about arguments and how they should be done are doing something else.

You both sound pretentious, and one of you has bad grammar.

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Kurt]
    #22217482 -

Tropism said:
Call bullshit and stand by it. If that they stand by their bullshit more than your friendship, thems the breaks. :eek:


Pretty much. :shrug:
Kurt said:
Argument speaks for itself, and people talking about arguments and how they should be done are doing something else.

You both sound pretentious, and one of you has bad grammar.


Argument does speak for itself, and he has little.

This thread is about self-serving manipulative people and how to handle them in your daily life.
Your subjective interpretation of how pretentious anyone sounds based on the little information provided is irrelevant to the topic at hand and it is pretentious to think it matters enough to derail this thread, please stay on topic.


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #22217575 -

Argument speaks for itself "and..." :lol:

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #22217594 -

I started to read your sad saga about the manipulative thread, then halfway in, I gave up and realized that honestly

I don't give a fuck about him, his controlling nature, and others like him.  What do I do in public?  I fucking look at people like that and give them THE look.  The disbelieving yet engaging look you would give to a dog out of line.  The one they look back with those sad eyes yet engaged and knowing that in fact

You (me) is in control at that moment.  Typically they wander off, often with tail between legs.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Tropism] * 1
    #22217599 -

Tropism said:
Call bullshit and stand by it. If that they stand by their bullshit more than your friendship, thems the breaks. :eek:


Yeah, eventually you may just have to "Agree to disagree."

Have had many passionate debates with friends and agreeing to disagree at the end of a heated discussion keeps us all friends hah


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: LunarEclipse] * 1
    #22217602 -

LunarEclipse said:
I started to read your sad saga about the manipulative thread, then halfway in, I gave up and realized that honestly

I don't give a fuck about him, his controlling nature, and others like him.  What do I do in public?  I fucking look at people like that and give them THE look.  The disbelieving yet engaging look you would give to a dog out of line.  The one they look back with those sad eyes yet engaged and knowing that in fact

You (me) is in control at that moment.  Typically they wander off, often with tail between legs.


haha "the look".

Yeah, this works too.


--------------------
zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes
Light up the darkness.

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #22217623 -

Are you talking to ME?

Are you TALKING to me?

Are YOU talking to me?


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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #22217640 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
Are you talking to ME?

Are you TALKING to me?

Are YOU talking to me?


Well now that you mention it.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #22217961 -

Raven Gnosis said:
I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, whom can be very aggressive with his points of view; relying on emotion to ‘win’ out with something he disagrees with other than data and/or a sound argument, ignoring data and good arguments against his own.


I have a friend just like this. Right bossy bastard he can be too. On a few occasions it got so bad that I told him I had to step away from the relationship - which would always cause him to reflect a little and apologise.

Our man cez once said this:

Quote:
When someone is shit, you can do three things:
1) withdraw your presence from them.
2) confront them on the situation.
3) surrender to the situation and take it as it is.


I think that's about the sum total of your options. I chose option 1 with this particular friend and it worked every time. If your friend is anything like mine, options 2 & 3 will likely not produce a good outcome.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22218075 -

LunarEclipse said:
I started to read your sad saga about the manipulative thread, then halfway in, I gave up and realized that honestly

I don't give a fuck about him, his controlling nature, and others like him.  What do I do in public?  I fucking look at people like that and give them THE look.  The disbelieving yet engaging look you would give to a dog out of line.  The one they look back with those sad eyes yet engaged and knowing that in fact

You (me) is in control at that moment.  Typically they wander off, often with tail between legs.



Jokeshopbeard said:
I have a friend just like this. Right bossy bastard he can be too. On a few occasions it got so bad that I told him I had to step away from the relationship - which would always cause him to reflect a little and apologise.

Our man cez once said this:

Quote:
When someone is shit, you can do three things:
1) withdraw your presence from them.
2) confront them on the situation.
3) surrender to the situation and take it as it is.


I think that's about the sum total of your options. I chose option 1 with this particular friend and it worked every time. If your friend is anything like mine, options 2 & 3 will likely not produce a good outcome.


Thank you for this, guys. You pretty much sum up where I'm at.
What I quoted him saying was being said to someone I care about. Thankfully they are not stupid enough to get sucked into his game. Either way, I was immediately disturbed and angered by what I saw and heard.

This dude is genuinely draining to be around due to the volatility of his emotional responses.
2 and 3 are options I've rarely taken and 1 is the route I've always taken with a mix of Lunar's.
If it were not for having known him for longer than I have not, I'd be more inclined to totally alienate him from my life, which with the passage of time is starting to feel more appropriate.
:feelsbadman:


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #22218295 -

I find that these individuals are struggling and conflicted when "evidence" is presented i.e. anything going against their point, whether right or wrong. When you challenge individuals they react in funny ways to protect themselves.
Now, I am not expert but I can say this, manipulators shift energy in the room in their favor.


--------------------

go on go on
I'm still here, waiting.

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: mindfckery]
    #22218356 -

mindfckery said:
I find that these individuals are struggling and conflicted when "evidence" is presented i.e. anything going against their point, whether right or wrong. When you challenge individuals they react in funny ways to protect themselves.
Now, I am not expert but I can say this, manipulators shift energy in the room in their favor.


You're spot on with both things you said there. I also feel there is a degree of narcissism involved with that sort of manipulation.
There is a term for that funny reaction to information that challenges one's perspective, it's called "Cognitive Dissonance".

Welcome to the community. :sun::thumbup:


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #22218399 -

Raven Gnosis said:
mindfckery said:
I find that these individuals are struggling and conflicted when "evidence" is presented i.e. anything going against their point, whether right or wrong. When you challenge individuals they react in funny ways to protect themselves.
Now, I am not expert but I can say this, manipulators shift energy in the room in their favor.


You're spot on with both things you said there. I also feel there is a degree of narcissism involved with that sort of manipulation.
There is a term for that funny reaction to information that challenges one's perspective, it's called "Cognitive Dissonance".

Welcome to the community. :sun::thumbup:


Thanks.

Great point. These manipulators are at some level narcissistic like you mention. They are having conversations with themselves and trying to balance the inner and outer world. I don't know if they are fully engaged with others or simply, very self-conscious in the negative respect.


--------------------

go on go on
I'm still here, waiting.

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22218910 -

Jokeshopbeard said:
Raven Gnosis said:
I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, whom can be very aggressive with his points of view; relying on emotion to ‘win’ out with something he disagrees with other than data and/or a sound argument, ignoring data and good arguments against his own.


I have a friend just like this. Right bossy bastard he can be too. On a few occasions it got so bad that I told him I had to step away from the relationship - which would always cause him to reflect a little and apologise.

Our man cez once said this:

Quote:
When someone is shit, you can do three things:
1) withdraw your presence from them.
2) confront them on the situation.
3) surrender to the situation and take it as it is.


I think that's about the sum total of your options. I chose option 1 with this particular friend and it worked every time. If your friend is anything like mine, options 2 & 3 will likely not produce a good outcome.


Jokeshop, I tend to find you express an often overlooked possibility of temperament, if not distinction in a philosopher, but in this case I am left wondering. I think you may be free associating a bit much here.

What would this idea of "people who are shit" be based on? Why are you apparently taking the side of the guy who is just replaying and dramatizing arguments in his head, and asking others to confirm something derivative and vaguely characterized? We haven't even heard of any actual argument. You are assuming not only that the other guy is wrong, but under his shoe, so to speak, and some kind of moral degenerate or something?

Is the description of this argument so vague, that out of some convenience, it should automatically become such a caricature in favor of self, and in disparagement of the other? I believe the question is what is the face value, albeit, in some vagueness, which Raven comes here with this drama on his hands with? 

I understand how we are human beings in the world, and it is necessary to hold a sense of distinction in the world. Yet I am not sure that free association is how it plays out. Anyone can stiffen their neck and turn up their nose. The funny thing, is when people try to describe how they do that, and make a show of it, or urge each other to.

We can be open minded, I'd say. Someone who is replaying arguments in their head may not be automatically wrong, and may have even been in some sense unjustly treated. This may suggest things are more complex. But if there is any simplification of understanding that is to be assumed due to things being perhaps both naturally and conveniently vague, in raven's description, it would be best to assume that replaying an argument is sure as shit not righteousness, for no reason at all.

I believe pointing out this simple point is not at all unfair, and scrupulous. The OP says from the beginning that a description which disfavors him is "subjective", due to his own vagueness, and at the same time looks for a face value distinction. Well how about it? I'd say that this replaying phenomenon is the something old philosopher Nietzsche best described. Re-playing, or "ressentiment" is the face value here, which speaks to the argument vaguely insinuated, and not argued in its actual basis. That, strictly speaking is in some sense found in holding a weak position.

Quote:
The slave revolt in morality begins when the ressentiment itself becomes creative and gives birth to values: the ressentiment of those beings who are prevented from a genuine reaction, that is, something active, and who compensate for that with a merely imaginary vengeance. While all noble morality grows out of a triumphant affirmation of one’s own self, slave morality from the start says “No” to what is “outside,” “other,” to “a not itself.” And this “No” is its creative act. This transformation of the glance which confers value—this necessary projection towards what is outer instead of back onto itself—that is inherent in ressentiment...

...The “well born” simply felt that they were “the happy ones”; they did not have to construct their happiness artificially first by looking at their enemies, or in some circumstance to talk themselves into it, to lie to themselves (the way all men of ressentiment habitually do). Similarly they knew, as complete men, overloaded with power and thus necessarily active, that they must not separate action from happiness—they considered being active necessarily associated with happiness (that’s where the phrase eu prattein [do well, succeed] derives its origin)—all this is very much the opposite of “happiness” at the level of the powerless, the oppressed, those festering with poisonous and hostile feelings, among whom happiness comes out essentially as a narcotic, an anaesthetic, quiet, peace, “Sabbath,” relaxing the soul, and stretching one’s limbs, in short, as something passive. While the noble man lives for himself with trust and candour (gennaios, meaning “of noble birth,” stresses the nuance “upright” and also probably “naive”), the man of ressentiment is neither upright nor naive, nor honest and direct with himself. His soul squints...




Quote:
...How much respect a noble man already has for his enemies!—and such a respect is already a bridge to love. . . . In fact, he demands his enemy for himself, as his mark of honour. Indeed, he has no enemy other than one in whom there is nothing to despise and a great deal to respect! By contrast, imagine for yourself “the enemy” as a man of ressentiment conceives him—and right here we have his action, his creation: he has conceptualized “the evil enemy,” “the evil one,” and as a fundamental idea, from which he now also thinks his way to an opposite image and counterpart, a “good man”— himself!

-Friedrich Nietzsche; Genealogy of Morals


Tough love is best.

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Kurt]
    #22219115 -

Kurt, I wish I could respond to your post in a more precise and coherent manner man, but I'm afraid I'm at a bit of a loss as to some of concepts and points you raise. I've just had a read up on free association and I can't see how it is relevant? I'm probably overlooking some salient point but cannot see it at this moment.

I don't mean to take sides in any way; I simply mean to relay some of my own personal experience in the hope that it may benefit another (namely the OP). I hold no judgement over who/what is right/wrong - I can only express what I have observed in my friend of 16 years, who has oft been a subject of discussion between myself and my wife (due to his aggressive temperament).

I've had to put a lot of work into analysing his behaviour in order to allow our friendship to continue; if it weren't for doing so, I likely would have punched his lights out a long time ago. I'm probably guilty of making the assumption that the person described in the OP is somewhat like my friend (is that where the free association comes in?), but I think the quote that I added regarding people who are 'shit' is quite a useful tool to carry in this life.

When I think of someone as 'shit' - I simply mean when someone acts in a way which is offensive to me. I'm very open to the fact that it could always be me who has the problem, which is why I tend not to take the offensive, but rather withdraw to a space where I can effectively analyse the situation.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Kurt]
    #22219565 -

Jokeshopbeard said:
Kurt, I wish I could respond to your post in a more precise and coherent manner man, but I'm afraid I'm at a bit of a loss as to some of concepts and points you raise. I've just had a read up on free association and I can't see how it is relevant? I'm probably overlooking some salient point but cannot see it at this moment.

I don't mean to take sides in any way; I simply mean to relay some of my own personal experience in the hope that it may benefit another (namely the OP). I hold no judgement over who/what is right/wrong - I can only express what I have observed in my friend of 16 years, who has oft been a subject of discussion between myself and my wife (due to his aggressive temperament).

I've had to put a lot of work into analysing his behaviour in order to allow our friendship to continue; if it weren't for doing so, I likely would have punched his lights out a long time ago. I'm probably guilty of making the assumption that the person described in the OP is somewhat like my friend (is that where the free association comes in?), but I think the quote that I added regarding people who are 'shit' is quite a useful tool to carry in this life.

When I think of someone as 'shit' - I simply mean when someone acts in a way which is offensive to me. I'm very open to the fact that it could always be me who has the problem, which is why I tend not to take the offensive, but rather withdraw to a space where I can effectively analyse the situation.



Even though this isn't directed at me, Joke, this resonates tremendously with my situation and even reading this and knowing someone else has experienced it helps and I very much appreciate it.

Kurt, based on what you're saying, I feel you're very much misunderstanding me.
I'm not quite sure where you're getting that there is a replaying of an argument in any capacity, as no argument or discussion unfolded between he and I about what I quoted him saying.
That’s why I posted here, how do I handle this?

But the arguments I was speaking of when I said …” relying on emotion to ‘win’ out with something he disagrees with other than data and/or a sound argument, ignoring data and good arguments against his own.” I will give you an example of.

Him: Sandy Hook was a hoax.

His friend, my acquaintance: How do you know? I used to think that too, until I saw this. Do you have anything on it being a hoax worth looking at?

Him: Fuck that, you don’t need evidence. I’m sick of people saying that. (In a mocking voice) “Can you prove it?! Can you prove it?!” Makes me want to go “BAAM!” (Does the motion of grabbing someone’s head and kneeing them violently in the face.) It’s fucking stupid!

This is the same person that softly said this to my little brother last night.
“You don’t need empirical evidence when listening to me; you listen with your heart and know my words are true.”

He’s lost quite a few friends because of this sort of behavior and I do genuinely care for him, worry about him and do what I can to be a healthy influence in his life… I’m not interested in discussing the morality of his behavior and don’t feel a need to go into detail of his deeds, but if you are interested and think it will help you provide me with some valuable feedback, I am willing to share through private messaging.

What I am seeking is insight as to where I ought to draw the line between compassion for him and those he manipulates, threatens and over all treats poorly.

How does one handle and where does one draw the line with a friend  or anyone for that matter who behaves like this?

This is genuinely a struggle I am having.


--------------------
To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Raven Gnosis]
    #22220016 -

Raven Gnosis said:
Even though this isn't directed at me, Joke, this resonates tremendously with my situation and even reading this and knowing someone else has experienced it helps and I very much appreciate it.


You're welcome man, glad I could be of help. If it's of any additional help, I think the behaviour you describe above, and that of my friend is often down to deep rooted insecurity. Once I realised that (after many years knowing him), I was able to take his actions a lot less personally and respond in a calmer manner. It helped a lot.


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #22221343 -

Quote:
...The “well born” simply felt that they were “the happy ones”; they did not have to construct their happiness artificially first by looking at their enemies, or in some circumstance to talk themselves into it, to lie to themselves (the way all men of ressentiment habitually do). Similarly they knew, as complete men, overloaded with power and thus necessarily active, that they must not separate action from happiness —they considered being active necessarily associated with happiness (that’s where the phrase eu prattein [do well, succeed] derives its origin)—all this is very much the opposite of “happiness” at the level of the powerless, the oppressed, those festering with poisonous and hostile feelings, among whom happiness comes out essentially as a narcotic, an anaesthetic, quiet, peace, “Sabbath,” relaxing the soul, and stretching one’s limbs, in short, as something passive. While the noble man lives for himself with trust and candour (gennaios, meaning “of noble birth,” stresses the nuance “upright” and also probably “naive”), the man of ressentiment is neither upright nor naive, nor honest and direct with himself. His soul squints...


This is amazing. You've quoted this from the Genealogy of Morals, correct?
I'll have to give this a read.


--------------------
Μανθάνων μὴ κάμνε

:alert: Mycology Fundamentals and Misc. Info :mushroom:

:chemistry: Stains, Reagents, and Media :alert:

Tradelist

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