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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
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Dealing with Manipulators.
#22217352 - 09/10/15 03:24 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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To provide some background on what is driving me to write this, last night, I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, whom can be very aggressive with his points of view; relying on emotion to ‘win’ out with something he disagrees with other than data and/or a sound argument, ignoring data and good arguments against his own.
He also uses this to get his way in everyday situations, when things aren’t going the way he wants them to, often creating embarrassing and uncomfortable situations in public.
It’s difficult for me to remember exactly what he said verbatim, but in this conversation he said something that immediately stuck out to me as venom, as a syntax structure whose very nature is to gently deceive and manipulate you into a position in which he has power. It was something along the lines of: “You don’t need empirical evidence when listening to me; you listen with your heart and know my words are true.”
Now, if this person were genuinely compassionate, caring and gentle I would feel much different. I’m sure there are other words for it, but this is what I like to call “Messiah dialogue” for what I feel should be obvious reasons, but would be happy to clarify.
I’ve fortunately have had the pleasure of dealing with people like this before, but’s it’s always different and never easy…
My biggest question here is, how have any of you learned to handle such situations and people, especially those whom you know on a personal or professional basis, without creating a great deal of conflict?
How do you halt or handle a manipulator like this?
(edit: shit grammar)
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
Edited by Raven Gnosis (09/10/15 03:27 PM)
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Raven Gnosis] 1
#22217403 - 09/10/15 03:37 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Call bullshit and stand by it. If that they stand by their bullshit more than your friendship, thems the breaks.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Argument speaks for itself, and people talking about arguments and how they should be done are doing something else.
You both sound pretentious, and one of you has bad grammar.
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Kurt]
#22217482 - 09/10/15 03:55 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tropism said: Call bullshit and stand by it. If that they stand by their bullshit more than your friendship, thems the breaks. 
Pretty much. 
Quote:
Kurt said: Argument speaks for itself, and people talking about arguments and how they should be done are doing something else.
You both sound pretentious, and one of you has bad grammar.
Argument does speak for itself, and he has little.
This thread is about self-serving manipulative people and how to handle them in your daily life. Your subjective interpretation of how pretentious anyone sounds based on the little information provided is irrelevant to the topic at hand and it is pretentious to think it matters enough to derail this thread, please stay on topic.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Argument speaks for itself "and..."
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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I started to read your sad saga about the manipulative thread, then halfway in, I gave up and realized that honestly
I don't give a fuck about him, his controlling nature, and others like him. What do I do in public? I fucking look at people like that and give them THE look. The disbelieving yet engaging look you would give to a dog out of line. The one they look back with those sad eyes yet engaged and knowing that in fact
You (me) is in control at that moment. Typically they wander off, often with tail between legs.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Tropism] 1
#22217599 - 09/10/15 04:28 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tropism said: Call bullshit and stand by it. If that they stand by their bullshit more than your friendship, thems the breaks. 
Yeah, eventually you may just have to "Agree to disagree."
Have had many passionate debates with friends and agreeing to disagree at the end of a heated discussion keeps us all friends hah
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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hTx
(:



Registered: 03/27/13
Posts: 5,724
Loc: Space-time
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: LunarEclipse] 1
#22217602 - 09/10/15 04:29 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: I started to read your sad saga about the manipulative thread, then halfway in, I gave up and realized that honestly
I don't give a fuck about him, his controlling nature, and others like him. What do I do in public? I fucking look at people like that and give them THE look. The disbelieving yet engaging look you would give to a dog out of line. The one they look back with those sad eyes yet engaged and knowing that in fact
You (me) is in control at that moment. Typically they wander off, often with tail between legs.
haha "the look".
Yeah, this works too.
-------------------- zen by age ten times six hundred lifetimes Light up the darkness.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
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Are you talking to ME?
Are you TALKING to me?
Are YOU talking to me?
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story


Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Are you talking to ME?
Are you TALKING to me?
Are YOU talking to me?
Well now that you mention it.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Quote:
Raven Gnosis said: I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, whom can be very aggressive with his points of view; relying on emotion to ‘win’ out with something he disagrees with other than data and/or a sound argument, ignoring data and good arguments against his own.
I have a friend just like this. Right bossy bastard he can be too. On a few occasions it got so bad that I told him I had to step away from the relationship - which would always cause him to reflect a little and apologise.
Our man cez once said this:
Quote:
When someone is shit, you can do three things: 1) withdraw your presence from them. 2) confront them on the situation. 3) surrender to the situation and take it as it is.
I think that's about the sum total of your options. I chose option 1 with this particular friend and it worked every time. If your friend is anything like mine, options 2 & 3 will likely not produce a good outcome.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
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Quote:
LunarEclipse said: I started to read your sad saga about the manipulative thread, then halfway in, I gave up and realized that honestly
I don't give a fuck about him, his controlling nature, and others like him. What do I do in public? I fucking look at people like that and give them THE look. The disbelieving yet engaging look you would give to a dog out of line. The one they look back with those sad eyes yet engaged and knowing that in fact
You (me) is in control at that moment. Typically they wander off, often with tail between legs.
Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
I have a friend just like this. Right bossy bastard he can be too. On a few occasions it got so bad that I told him I had to step away from the relationship - which would always cause him to reflect a little and apologise.
Our man cez once said this:
Quote:
When someone is shit, you can do three things: 1) withdraw your presence from them. 2) confront them on the situation. 3) surrender to the situation and take it as it is.
I think that's about the sum total of your options. I chose option 1 with this particular friend and it worked every time. If your friend is anything like mine, options 2 & 3 will likely not produce a good outcome.
Thank you for this, guys. You pretty much sum up where I'm at. What I quoted him saying was being said to someone I care about. Thankfully they are not stupid enough to get sucked into his game. Either way, I was immediately disturbed and angered by what I saw and heard.
This dude is genuinely draining to be around due to the volatility of his emotional responses. 2 and 3 are options I've rarely taken and 1 is the route I've always taken with a mix of Lunar's. If it were not for having known him for longer than I have not, I'd be more inclined to totally alienate him from my life, which with the passage of time is starting to feel more appropriate.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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mindfckery
the patient

Registered: 09/10/15
Posts: 25
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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I find that these individuals are struggling and conflicted when "evidence" is presented i.e. anything going against their point, whether right or wrong. When you challenge individuals they react in funny ways to protect themselves. Now, I am not expert but I can say this, manipulators shift energy in the room in their favor.
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go on go on I'm still here, waiting.
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: mindfckery]
#22218356 - 09/10/15 07:25 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
mindfckery said: I find that these individuals are struggling and conflicted when "evidence" is presented i.e. anything going against their point, whether right or wrong. When you challenge individuals they react in funny ways to protect themselves. Now, I am not expert but I can say this, manipulators shift energy in the room in their favor.
You're spot on with both things you said there. I also feel there is a degree of narcissism involved with that sort of manipulation. There is a term for that funny reaction to information that challenges one's perspective, it's called "Cognitive Dissonance".
Welcome to the community. 
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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mindfckery
the patient

Registered: 09/10/15
Posts: 25
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Raven Gnosis said:
Quote:
mindfckery said: I find that these individuals are struggling and conflicted when "evidence" is presented i.e. anything going against their point, whether right or wrong. When you challenge individuals they react in funny ways to protect themselves. Now, I am not expert but I can say this, manipulators shift energy in the room in their favor.
You're spot on with both things you said there. I also feel there is a degree of narcissism involved with that sort of manipulation. There is a term for that funny reaction to information that challenges one's perspective, it's called "Cognitive Dissonance".
Welcome to the community.  
Thanks.
Great point. These manipulators are at some level narcissistic like you mention. They are having conversations with themselves and trying to balance the inner and outer world. I don't know if they are fully engaged with others or simply, very self-conscious in the negative respect.
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go on go on I'm still here, waiting.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:
Raven Gnosis said: I was having a conversation with a friend of mine, whom can be very aggressive with his points of view; relying on emotion to ‘win’ out with something he disagrees with other than data and/or a sound argument, ignoring data and good arguments against his own.
I have a friend just like this. Right bossy bastard he can be too. On a few occasions it got so bad that I told him I had to step away from the relationship - which would always cause him to reflect a little and apologise.
Our man cez once said this:
Quote:
When someone is shit, you can do three things: 1) withdraw your presence from them. 2) confront them on the situation. 3) surrender to the situation and take it as it is.
I think that's about the sum total of your options. I chose option 1 with this particular friend and it worked every time. If your friend is anything like mine, options 2 & 3 will likely not produce a good outcome.
Jokeshop, I tend to find you express an often overlooked possibility of temperament, if not distinction in a philosopher, but in this case I am left wondering. I think you may be free associating a bit much here.
What would this idea of "people who are shit" be based on? Why are you apparently taking the side of the guy who is just replaying and dramatizing arguments in his head, and asking others to confirm something derivative and vaguely characterized? We haven't even heard of any actual argument. You are assuming not only that the other guy is wrong, but under his shoe, so to speak, and some kind of moral degenerate or something?
Is the description of this argument so vague, that out of some convenience, it should automatically become such a caricature in favor of self, and in disparagement of the other? I believe the question is what is the face value, albeit, in some vagueness, which Raven comes here with this drama on his hands with?
I understand how we are human beings in the world, and it is necessary to hold a sense of distinction in the world. Yet I am not sure that free association is how it plays out. Anyone can stiffen their neck and turn up their nose. The funny thing, is when people try to describe how they do that, and make a show of it, or urge each other to.
We can be open minded, I'd say. Someone who is replaying arguments in their head may not be automatically wrong, and may have even been in some sense unjustly treated. This may suggest things are more complex. But if there is any simplification of understanding that is to be assumed due to things being perhaps both naturally and conveniently vague, in raven's description, it would be best to assume that replaying an argument is sure as shit not righteousness, for no reason at all.
I believe pointing out this simple point is not at all unfair, and scrupulous. The OP says from the beginning that a description which disfavors him is "subjective", due to his own vagueness, and at the same time looks for a face value distinction. Well how about it? I'd say that this replaying phenomenon is the something old philosopher Nietzsche best described. Re-playing, or "ressentiment" is the face value here, which speaks to the argument vaguely insinuated, and not argued in its actual basis. That, strictly speaking is in some sense found in holding a weak position.
Quote:
The slave revolt in morality begins when the ressentiment itself becomes creative and gives birth to values: the ressentiment of those beings who are prevented from a genuine reaction, that is, something active, and who compensate for that with a merely imaginary vengeance. While all noble morality grows out of a triumphant affirmation of one’s own self, slave morality from the start says “No” to what is “outside,” “other,” to “a not itself.” And this “No” is its creative act. This transformation of the glance which confers value—this necessary projection towards what is outer instead of back onto itself—that is inherent in ressentiment...
...The “well born” simply felt that they were “the happy ones”; they did not have to construct their happiness artificially first by looking at their enemies, or in some circumstance to talk themselves into it, to lie to themselves (the way all men of ressentiment habitually do). Similarly they knew, as complete men, overloaded with power and thus necessarily active, that they must not separate action from happiness—they considered being active necessarily associated with happiness (that’s where the phrase eu prattein [do well, succeed] derives its origin)—all this is very much the opposite of “happiness” at the level of the powerless, the oppressed, those festering with poisonous and hostile feelings, among whom happiness comes out essentially as a narcotic, an anaesthetic, quiet, peace, “Sabbath,” relaxing the soul, and stretching one’s limbs, in short, as something passive. While the noble man lives for himself with trust and candour (gennaios, meaning “of noble birth,” stresses the nuance “upright” and also probably “naive”), the man of ressentiment is neither upright nor naive, nor honest and direct with himself. His soul squints...
Quote:
...How much respect a noble man already has for his enemies!—and such a respect is already a bridge to love. . . . In fact, he demands his enemy for himself, as his mark of honour. Indeed, he has no enemy other than one in whom there is nothing to despise and a great deal to respect! By contrast, imagine for yourself “the enemy” as a man of ressentiment conceives him—and right here we have his action, his creation: he has conceptualized “the evil enemy,” “the evil one,” and as a fundamental idea, from which he now also thinks his way to an opposite image and counterpart, a “good man”— himself!
-Friedrich Nietzsche; Genealogy of Morals
Tough love is best.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Kurt]
#22219115 - 09/10/15 10:13 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Kurt, I wish I could respond to your post in a more precise and coherent manner man, but I'm afraid I'm at a bit of a loss as to some of concepts and points you raise. I've just had a read up on free association and I can't see how it is relevant? I'm probably overlooking some salient point but cannot see it at this moment.
I don't mean to take sides in any way; I simply mean to relay some of my own personal experience in the hope that it may benefit another (namely the OP). I hold no judgement over who/what is right/wrong - I can only express what I have observed in my friend of 16 years, who has oft been a subject of discussion between myself and my wife (due to his aggressive temperament).
I've had to put a lot of work into analysing his behaviour in order to allow our friendship to continue; if it weren't for doing so, I likely would have punched his lights out a long time ago. I'm probably guilty of making the assumption that the person described in the OP is somewhat like my friend (is that where the free association comes in?), but I think the quote that I added regarding people who are 'shit' is quite a useful tool to carry in this life.
When I think of someone as 'shit' - I simply mean when someone acts in a way which is offensive to me. I'm very open to the fact that it could always be me who has the problem, which is why I tend not to take the offensive, but rather withdraw to a space where I can effectively analyse the situation.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Kurt]
#22219565 - 09/11/15 12:26 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: Kurt, I wish I could respond to your post in a more precise and coherent manner man, but I'm afraid I'm at a bit of a loss as to some of concepts and points you raise. I've just had a read up on free association and I can't see how it is relevant? I'm probably overlooking some salient point but cannot see it at this moment.
I don't mean to take sides in any way; I simply mean to relay some of my own personal experience in the hope that it may benefit another (namely the OP). I hold no judgement over who/what is right/wrong - I can only express what I have observed in my friend of 16 years, who has oft been a subject of discussion between myself and my wife (due to his aggressive temperament).
I've had to put a lot of work into analysing his behaviour in order to allow our friendship to continue; if it weren't for doing so, I likely would have punched his lights out a long time ago. I'm probably guilty of making the assumption that the person described in the OP is somewhat like my friend (is that where the free association comes in?), but I think the quote that I added regarding people who are 'shit' is quite a useful tool to carry in this life.
When I think of someone as 'shit' - I simply mean when someone acts in a way which is offensive to me. I'm very open to the fact that it could always be me who has the problem, which is why I tend not to take the offensive, but rather withdraw to a space where I can effectively analyse the situation.
Even though this isn't directed at me, Joke, this resonates tremendously with my situation and even reading this and knowing someone else has experienced it helps and I very much appreciate it.
Kurt, based on what you're saying, I feel you're very much misunderstanding me. I'm not quite sure where you're getting that there is a replaying of an argument in any capacity, as no argument or discussion unfolded between he and I about what I quoted him saying. That’s why I posted here, how do I handle this?
But the arguments I was speaking of when I said …” relying on emotion to ‘win’ out with something he disagrees with other than data and/or a sound argument, ignoring data and good arguments against his own.” I will give you an example of.
Him: Sandy Hook was a hoax.
His friend, my acquaintance: How do you know? I used to think that too, until I saw this. Do you have anything on it being a hoax worth looking at?
Him: Fuck that, you don’t need evidence. I’m sick of people saying that. (In a mocking voice) “Can you prove it?! Can you prove it?!” Makes me want to go “BAAM!” (Does the motion of grabbing someone’s head and kneeing them violently in the face.) It’s fucking stupid!
This is the same person that softly said this to my little brother last night. “You don’t need empirical evidence when listening to me; you listen with your heart and know my words are true.”
He’s lost quite a few friends because of this sort of behavior and I do genuinely care for him, worry about him and do what I can to be a healthy influence in his life… I’m not interested in discussing the morality of his behavior and don’t feel a need to go into detail of his deeds, but if you are interested and think it will help you provide me with some valuable feedback, I am willing to share through private messaging.
What I am seeking is insight as to where I ought to draw the line between compassion for him and those he manipulates, threatens and over all treats poorly.
How does one handle and where does one draw the line with a friend or anyone for that matter who behaves like this?
This is genuinely a struggle I am having.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Quote:
Raven Gnosis said: Even though this isn't directed at me, Joke, this resonates tremendously with my situation and even reading this and knowing someone else has experienced it helps and I very much appreciate it.
You're welcome man, glad I could be of help. If it's of any additional help, I think the behaviour you describe above, and that of my friend is often down to deep rooted insecurity. Once I realised that (after many years knowing him), I was able to take his actions a lot less personally and respond in a calmer manner. It helped a lot.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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BayerPhi
Always Learning

Registered: 05/28/12
Posts: 1,884
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Quote:
...The “well born” simply felt that they were “the happy ones”; they did not have to construct their happiness artificially first by looking at their enemies, or in some circumstance to talk themselves into it, to lie to themselves (the way all men of ressentiment habitually do). Similarly they knew, as complete men, overloaded with power and thus necessarily active, that they must not separate action from happiness —they considered being active necessarily associated with happiness (that’s where the phrase eu prattein [do well, succeed] derives its origin)—all this is very much the opposite of “happiness” at the level of the powerless, the oppressed, those festering with poisonous and hostile feelings, among whom happiness comes out essentially as a narcotic, an anaesthetic, quiet, peace, “Sabbath,” relaxing the soul, and stretching one’s limbs, in short, as something passive. While the noble man lives for himself with trust and candour (gennaios, meaning “of noble birth,” stresses the nuance “upright” and also probably “naive”), the man of ressentiment is neither upright nor naive, nor honest and direct with himself. His soul squints...
This is amazing. You've quoted this from the Genealogy of Morals, correct? I'll have to give this a read.
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DividedQuantum
Outer Head


Registered: 12/06/13
Posts: 9,819
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: BayerPhi]
#22221423 - 09/11/15 11:19 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I quite enjoy it when Kurt quotes Nietzsche, as he does frequently and with alacrity. I'm a fan.
-------------------- Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: mindfckery]
#22221459 - 09/11/15 11:26 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah, Genealogy of Morals. It's something in itself.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Hey, I want apologize for any bluntness of my initial response JKSB, and attempt a more relative response. Nietzsche has a particularly "extroverted" sense of value which in one way is incredible, but as DQ well pointed out, it is always with a sense of ease to quote Nietzsche. The man who with a propitious sense of closure, said “I am dynamite”, did not necessarily find an inner peace, I observe.
Yet Nietzsche is on point in this topic. For some reason, acknowledging being in the world, seems so often to be in crudeness or plain shittiness of it, and that is why I think I responded to your post in the first place. Shittiness is always “there”, and I agree with acknowledging that. It is the exemplary crude element, you could say, for a human to draw an association and reflex (aversion to “shittiness”) from. In your last post, you seem to describe it as a potentially essential impression of things:
Quote:
...I think the quote that I added regarding people who are 'shit' is quite a useful tool to carry in this life. When I think of someone as 'shit' - I simply mean when someone acts in a way which is offensive to me. I'm very open to the fact that it could always be me who has the problem, which is why I tend not to take the offensive, but rather withdraw to a space where I can effectively analyse the situation.
While I generally agree with nearly all manners or means of finding distinction and value in the world, as opposed to what is commonly not attempting that, I would at least attempt to argue that negativity (whether you look for it in yourself, or others) can't be considered basically or essentially demonstrative of anything. The notion could be expressed, but in point I agree with Nietzsche that it just doesn't make much sense to base “values” on the bad or negative, even if it is possible. I also think there is more to this though. I think it would be more native to my own philosophical temperament in fact, and perhaps your own as well, to argue this another way.
From a “point” of withdrawal, as you suggest in the quote, it is interesting that there may be so much observation and emphasis on the phenomenal character of our impression of things, even the quality of an impression itself. Maybe it is all the more visceral in meditation. And yet I also observe the object or goal in many meditations, is to cease the said impression in some sense. "Yoga is ceasing the impressions of the mind". That impression is apparently given an immanent distinction in buddhist's pessimism, in a world of suffering: “This one (with right view)... has no perplexity or doubt that what arises is only suffering arising, what ceases is only suffering ceasing.”
If it were possible to suggest, and follow such notions as this, as points of dialogue, I would say I am less wondering how this negative impression is attributed to this or that, rightly or wrongly, but how consciousness or awareness deals with “shit”.
Spontaneity, action, and distinction in the world, may be considered basic as Nietzsche well argues, which is also something many philosophers miss. Immersed in action, in the physical reflexes for instance, they will tend to blend with “reactions” of the sort I may consider hiccups or mistakes. In action I may see and observe this, but there is always something burning and flowing through action, and I am not stepping back from this and wondering how this or that happened, and I am not going to repeat something from the beginning to get it right necessarily. Maybe all I am is a being of neuro-muscular reflexes, and indeed that includes the more abrasive “reactions” in flow and unity of physical organism. It is all the same “stuff”, although I believe that is less to speak of the nature of “the physical body” (an easy association to make) as the nature of action.
If on the other hand, I have an ideal of peace or stillness as well, I am in this way also observing emotions and thought complexes, and presenting their phenomena to myself this way, and I am doing this perhaps all the more, in more subtlety and awareness, in relief from stillness. Any arising, any burning, is not what I am ultimately looking for in ideal stillness, and yet I am looking and observing like a cat watching a hole in the wall for a mouse. Or maybe the way I would observe is looking for something like a nervous tic or a “knee jerk” reaction that I can give awareness to.
While I find that acknowledging my attitude toward the nature of these impressions is important, and important to be consistent in, what I finally observe is that generally my impression can seem to change significantly. While I get that the impression is of something “there”, I wonder how I attribute this. How do I attribute things like suffering and the general shittiness of things to life? I guess all I have is these roundabout questions...? These considerations are touching and overlapping in some places, in a very complex way (even though that complex may be completely conditional, and simplified, as just awareness for instance).
What I was critical of in drawing an association, was originally, of whether it is possible to base distinctions or values on something bad (the Nietzschean argument), even if badness exists. But I think it must not just be a matter if it is appropriately or inappropriately attributed, and I still wonder where the general idea (the analogy itself) of pessimism towards life, the shit of it comes from. Is it based on some notion of “the lowness” of physical nature, and some notion of seperation of things?
Anyways, I am not saying I disagree with self responsible approaches, as you seem to have described. I think that you are able to examine that essential attribute, and change your opinion on it, has got to be something. I am curious about the "tool" you speak of. Resolving to put up with someone else's shit, or indeed being at any point able to reconsider a judgement that a person literally is shit, (and I mean still have something to do with him) is something I haven't been unlucky enough to grok, perhaps. I am not saying I don't have my own problems, and sense of responsibility, for sure, but I think they have been accidental problems, rather than so essentially based on the character of people.
I have gotten some good whiffs...I think our medical care system in the united states is shit, our people gaurding it, and focusing on pretentious methodological slants and objectification (symptoms) rather than care, and embodied health, is pretty shitty, and I think that politicians arguing for what is appropriate for us is shitty, but its all just kind of like this big giant vague shit, and mostly what I observe is a lack of consciousness, more than conscious evils. I could well be naive, but that is where I am coming from, anyway.
To be able to raise essential questions, and perhaps be wrong, or change my opinion, is something I'd consider to be well and appreciable...
Edited by Kurt (09/13/15 08:47 PM)
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student

Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Kurt]
#22232527 - 09/13/15 04:26 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks for saying Kurt. Do you think you could sum that up in a couple of sentences? I'm sorry to have to ask, but your intellect dazzles me sometimes!
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
Posts: 8,327
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Quote:
without creating a great deal of conflict?
How do you halt or handle a manipulator like this?
1. Everybody is a manipulator 2. Conflict is a very natural and normal human experience. I am under the impression that your perception of conflict may carry a negative view. Please, refer to some communication studies on what conflict is and how to deal best with both inter and intra personal conflict situations from a perspective that may fit you better.
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BayerPhi
Always Learning

Registered: 05/28/12
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Quote:
Jokeshopbeard said: Thanks for saying Kurt. Do you think you could sum that up in a couple of sentences? I'm sorry to have to ask, but your intellect dazzles me sometimes!
It's worth breaking it down. Like solving a riddle, my friend.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
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I am not sure I will be able to arrive at any fundamental clarity, but at least in what I was saying, I can summarize: I think we begin with our impressions generally, and that is all we seem to have to work with. That would be the summary idea, although understanding those impressions in an organic or practical sense is what I was trying to get at, and that opens to the complications which we are all (surely if we are here talking about this) involved with. That I can't summarize so I guess I am just spitballing.
Another simple thing I observe, is you take a stand on confronting something, whereas many and most people are just relativistic about the same thing. What you are saying seems to me like some solid roots to get at. What is suffering, or what is this seemingly inherent shittiness to life - that stuff that sticks - and where does it come from. How are we really responsible for all this in human life?
I once picked up this book at a used bookstore on Tibetan practice that was, well, impossible to read comprehensively, but at the front of it there was a metaphor that stuck with me. It described a tangled ball of roots. I recall the line now, and found it on the web:
Quote:
A tangle within, a tangle without, people are entangled in a tangle. Gotama, I ask you this: who can untangle this tangle?
I would say that while we can take up the essential problems of existence, maybe we can forget about how to (or to whom to) attribute this problem to in a certain sense. Maybe it is necessary due even to the nature of the problem? Of course that is the hard part, because it seems to be against all suggestible intelligibility to resign a sense of essential responsibility. I don't have any solution, or ultimate clarity to share, in suggesting that, so it might not even be a good method or approach, but for some reason I feel like we are all in the same boat, so this is what I'm throwing out there.
I would stand by one thing in my experience, that with all my problems, I find them related with tendencies of other people, my family and my society, and that is to say, largely in human relationships in general. But in my experience, none of them are ever themselves the essential root of my problems. Definitely it is in having to do with them, that a problem arises, and of course I have met some people who are a mess, or who just seem like trouble.
But as it happened (more in my personal experience) I got some way bigger problems and some perspective, which I am still trying to work out. I am not sure, but I think of it as my nature or fate to deal with a problem, and the way I am mainly doing that (effectively or not) is working on essentially relative conditions. It is definitely not anything that has worked out to be a virtue, but on my lap, and at least I have had that opportunity to see... damn, no one is responsible for this, and not even me, but then everyone is, including me. Does that make sense? I am not sure! But this is how things seem to me if so we're to couch for anything.
Actually I am right in the muck of trying to sort things out again, to find out how this deal came to be. I have recently been projecting a huge and heavy and unjustifiable burden on a girl I dated recently. It wasn't blame, but a projection of responsibility or commitment that was not hers, and I am hoping I have the wisdom to work things out with her, and distance the associations I made without breaking things apart.
Anyway, I'll clarify that my thought is on an undesirable aspect of life, as suffering. Maybe we all look at the same kind of problem, and want to give it a name, and label it, and find out what belongs to who and so on, (sniff-sniffing around) and that of course is necessary, but under the right assumption which is not always so easy to understand, and indeed, maybe constantly addressed.
I don't know if this happens to be true of the nature of reality or whatever, but maybe it is just an image or association, or a tool for insight. I get acknowledging problems, and inherent and deep problems in their origin (or responsibility), but are they something so essential, I wonder? What is suffering? Aren't there often complex, interrelated conditions in play? Well, that I think is the most I can make of this.
I am not sure if I am managing to go in the direction of making sense, but this is my shot. Appreciate the relative interchange though, Jokeshop. I have to work on clarity, surely.
Edited by Kurt (09/13/15 11:48 PM)
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BayerPhi
Always Learning

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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Kurt]
#22235559 - 09/14/15 07:21 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Have you visited the Vedas or the Gita, Kurt?
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: BayerPhi]
#22236282 - 09/14/15 11:53 AM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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If I were still practicing formal astanga yoga, I think I would find my present aspiration in the works of philosophical poetry you've mentioned. Right now I am knee deep in Patanjali, and trying to work with something relatively systematic.
I'd note that Nietzsche and the Gita have a similar premise in acknowledging a life of conflict. Ie. (To the point of the topic) ponderousness and argument on the wrong basis never solved anything, but may just go in circles and conditioned patterns. Appreciate the reminder.
Hopefully JKSB will spur this discussion forward; no dwelling!
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blackdust


Registered: 02/28/09
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Kurt] 1
#22236334 - 09/14/15 12:08 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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I like to use the "conflict is a garden" metaphor for my perspective.
Quote:
Human relationships, especially when conflict has recently been part of the environment, need time to grow slowly, to recover from stress, and to put down roots. We can "harvest" the fruits of careful labor (Kritek 1994, 275)
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Cognitive_Shift
CS actual




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Posts: 29,591
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: blackdust]
#22237267 - 09/14/15 03:45 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Manipulating is what people do best and we all do it. Some of us are just more blunt and non-discrete about hiding it.
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
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Cognitive_Shift said: Manipulating is what people do best and we all do it. Some of us are just more blunt and non-discrete about hiding it.
Though I don’t think it’s what we do best, I do agree with everything else implied in this sentiment.
I do manipulate people, sometimes unconsciously too. I try to be compassionate and thoughtful in my conscious ones, though the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
It can even be argued that all words and speech we use with one another is in itself inherently manipulative in a manner. Every word I write here giving rise to thoughts and sentiments not your own in your head, whether you hold onto them or not. As it is possible with much of which you may have studied and how that has influenced your perception of self and world, painting the world with colors which may not even truly be there.
“As for the superstitions of the logicians, I shall never tire of underlining a concise little fact which these superstitious people are loath to admit – namely, that a thought comes when ‘it’ wants, not when ‘I’ want; so that it is a falsification of the facts to say: the subject ‘I’ is the condition of the predicate ‘think’….” Nietzche, beyond good and evil.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
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"No man ever steps in the same river twice"
Heraclitus
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
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Re: Dealing with Manipulators. [Re: Kurt]
#22241769 - 09/15/15 03:03 PM (8 years, 4 months ago) |
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Makes me think of Charles Manson.
“That’s a brand new step… Never been done… It’s history. Every step I take now, is history.”
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder



Registered: 12/09/99
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Your friend's comment to you reminds me of these popular psychopaths that I came across on Facebook today. Unfortunately, the Knowledge of the Heart is an Intuitive Knowledge, Gnosis, Gyan, Jnana. http://www.ruhanisatsangusa.org/naam/naam-gyan.htm . Your 'friend' (and I use the word loosely if he is what I think he is, at a lower level than the pros in the vid), is simply asking you to believe whatever he tells you, uncritically and without asking questions. Naturally, he expects that any lies and deceptions he comes out with will also be accepted uncritically. This is how highly psychopathic criminal manage to enlist their assistants btw. Jim Jones told his 909 victims to drink poisoned Flavor-Aid (not Kool-Aid) because the enemy was coming to burn them alive with flame-throwers. It was a lie, but they all complied! Red flag my friend, red flag.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Raven Gnosis
𝔰𝔢𝔯𝔭𝔢𝔫𝔱𝔦𝔠𝔦𝔡𝔞


Registered: 02/10/11
Posts: 1,311
Loc: Necoc Yaotl
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Quote:
I think he is, at a lower level than the pros in the vid), is simply asking you to believe whatever he tells you, uncritically and without asking questions. Naturally, he expects that any lies and deceptions he comes out with will also be accepted uncritically.
This is exactly what he was implying and why it disgusted me. Since I've made this thread, I've had a couple opportunities to hack at the roots of his thinking with success all while encouraging him to plant in himself seeds of thought which if nurtured, lead to behavior and thinking healthier for himself and those around him.
-------------------- To be human is to be fettered, to endure what one is, in perpetuum, no matter what the debility or perversity.
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